NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'. I'd still argue that L2 had at the very least as much apm as BDO in pvp, but we've been through this discussion a few times already iirc, so it'd be pointless
Azherae wrote: » But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
Azherae wrote: » unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
Azherae wrote: » Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Fantmx wrote: » I find BDO fun when I am in the mood for action combat. Another one I find fun is Neverwinter Online.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower. You know what, I'll take this bet. I got time. I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary. So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos. But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false.
Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
Dygz wrote: » Fantmx wrote: » I find BDO fun when I am in the mood for action combat. Another one I find fun is Neverwinter Online. BDO can be a fun MMO, but the combat is not good for an MMO RPG. If all you care about is the Fantasy MMO part, it's fine - especially solo. But, if what you want is the RPG aspect of synergizing your ability with group mates, it's horrible - because you don't need to synergize anything with group mates in BDO. All you need to do is button-mash.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected. Azherae wrote: » Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO? Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower. You know what, I'll take this bet. I got time. I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary. So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos. But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'. Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
Solvryn wrote: » This thread helps me further see the difference between each forum goers knowledge of the human brain and how it processes data. It's almost a moot point talking about combat when most people aren't studied and read in the right topics.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower. You know what, I'll take this bet. I got time. I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary. So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos. But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'. Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much. Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP? Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar? Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that. For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside. Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient?
Azherae wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » This thread helps me further see the difference between each forum goers knowledge of the human brain and how it processes data. It's almost a moot point talking about combat when most people aren't studied and read in the right topics. It generally seems to me that most people who get into these things do in fact have knowledge of it, or at least come to the generally correct conclusions, I'd moreso say it's the minority (out of the already limited forum) who lack the understanding of it. In short, don't pick on Mag7.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower. You know what, I'll take this bet. I got time. I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary. So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos. But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'. Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much. Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP? Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar? Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that. For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside. Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient? It is this simple show gameplay as reference, compare it to both and explain why one is more than the other. Both games exist and so does the gameplay on youtube as well. Explain why you feel speed is more with proof, explain why positioning matters with proof and reference as well. Then we can have a proper disccusion. The fact everyone is scared to show gameplay is a red flag to me for how their points will even hold up even more so when they say its faster on a whole so there shouldn't be a clip to worry about in worrying it will read wrong. The most easy one I'd happy to see why position matters more than BDO (as your dmg is based on positioning in this game) with reference clips to help get across the point.
NiKr wrote: » And here's pvp with high lvl of positioning in a click-to-move tab target game. You can hear how much he's clicking, and you can pay attention to the targetting, because he's playing a class that removes it and vs 2 classes that do the same. They're daggers, so they have backstabs, which pushes you to move to your enemy's back. You can see that they're trying to move around so that the enemy can't get behind them.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH6Qts0sk8g And I'd say this is maybe ~80% skill lvl. Retargetting could be faster and the other dudes seem to get lost with it too. And this is from an older version of the game. The newer versions have even more detargetting methods and even more movement options, so this is not even the limit to apm. edit: oh and btw, the fact that his hp doesn't go down much is related to positioning too. The enemy class has low accuracy on their abilities if they're used directly to the face or even to the front 180 degrees, so with proper positioning you can limit the incoming dmg by a lot.
Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » And here's pvp with high lvl of positioning in a click-to-move tab target game. You can hear how much he's clicking, and you can pay attention to the targetting, because he's playing a class that removes it and vs 2 classes that do the same. They're daggers, so they have backstabs, which pushes you to move to your enemy's back. You can see that they're trying to move around so that the enemy can't get behind them.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH6Qts0sk8g And I'd say this is maybe ~80% skill lvl. Retargetting could be faster and the other dudes seem to get lost with it too. And this is from an older version of the game. The newer versions have even more detargetting methods and even more movement options, so this is not even the limit to apm. edit: oh and btw, the fact that his hp doesn't go down much is related to positioning too. The enemy class has low accuracy on their abilities if they're used directly to the face or even to the front 180 degrees, so with proper positioning you can limit the incoming dmg by a lot. This one makes it even more obvious than the FFXI one, Mag, in case that one felt off to you. I actually completely like and support games where you do have to make the choice to 'press the button yourself', but I'm not a person who believes 'yeah because I have to press a button myself instead of choosing to not press a different button and letting the game do it for me' that depth has been added. I'll even add my own BDO fight for the same reasoning. Just to clarify a specific small thing, since as you pointed out, BDO PvE isn't that hard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKT_P_3fFFA I consider this 'harder' than fighting a Valkyrie though, if I am trying to never get hit (which is the basic requirement of BDO PvP, right?). Nevertheless, BDO is 'making me press the button', but really I could just 'tap block occasionally' when it swings and then quick-cancel into my attacks, I am repositioning here for fun. If I were fighting a Nova, Shai, or Valkyrie, it's the same to me, I'd reposition moreso for 'fun', they will turn faster than I could reasonably get behind them without a skill, unless of course they're not very good at all in which case they died another way. If anything, I reposition so that they think they have to and waste movement skills that I can whiff punish. If it was a Guardian, I'd have to move, but not because 'positioning matters', only timing actually matters there, because the whole thing is the same as when Dim goes for the attack that flashes it red (for those unfamiliar). It's just a huge multihit AoE and my only requirement is 'don't be standing there while it goes off'. I die way more to those players because I can't tell that the AoE has actually ended than anything else, so at that point yeah, I want MORE flashiness so I don't have to learn the frame data on Guardian's AoE. Other than that, fighting Guardian looks like fighting Dim except that they move more and give me more openings. I lose to the ones who know to just watch my movement and not move themselves because them trying to move just gets them killed.
Azherae wrote: » I actually completely like and support games where you do have to make the choice to 'press the button yourself', but I'm not a person who believes 'yeah because I have to press a button myself instead of choosing to not press a different button and letting the game do it for me' that depth has been added.
