Resurrection in combat

What's your opinion on the title's mechanic, both in terms of a healer ability and as a theoretical item that you could use to res someone in combat. In the next dev q&a thread I'm gonna be asking whether we'll have an item that lets us resurrect other players, but before that I wanted to see what was the general opinion on this particular interaction of resurrection.

I would personally prefer if we did have such an item and that we could res in combat. This would help with any potential player attacks during your pve and would also make pvp itself longer, which imo is fun

It could be argued that this would trivialize pve, but we've yet to see how difficult the general pve will be. And for any instanced truly difficult stuff we could just have a block on any res, if that's what Intrepid wants.

But yeah, what's your opinion on resurrection during combat?

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Azherae

With or without Weakened/Brink of Death?

Noaani

I'm personally of the opinion that it should be possible as a healer ability, but only for specific classes, with a minute or so cooldown and a fairly long cast time.

To me, from a PvE perspective, it is something that should be possible but not easy. It should be something you can consider doing if you have one or two people in a full raid die, but as soon as you get to about 3 or 4 people killed, you at the very least need to consider who to resurrect first, if at all.

As for items to resurrect, I am all for some classes being able to summon such items in to the inventory of others in their group or raid (no more than 1 per character), but that are only usable outside of combat. The main use for this is to bring a group back from a partial wipe, when that partial wipe includes the healer.

The above is basically how it was in EQ2 (though every healer in that game could resurrect in combat), and so works just fine with difficult PvE content.

It would, however, make easy PvE even easier. So if Ashes ends up going for easy PvE content (WoW difficulty or easier), then it is probably not the best idea.

Electronn

I definitely think brez should be a thing, but feel fairly strongly that it should be limited to the Cleric, and maybe even further limited to one or two secondary archetype choices, like Cleric/Cleric, Cleric/Summoner. It is a very powerful tool, and should require spec'ing deep into the tree to get it. I would not support having an item that allows you to do it. My reason is class identity, and maintaining what makes a archetype special/needed.

In wow it was a druid only ability, then at some point blizz gave it to the DK, then if I recall correctly they gave it to one or two other classes. My main was a druid, and the slow loss of class identity, and making all classes interchangeable, was one of the top 2 or 3 things that caused me to stop playing wow. We need each archetype to have special, powerful abilities that make them unique and a necessity, things that define the archetype. Brez is a great example.

And I definitely think brez should be one use per encounter. Again, it is a very powerful ability. You should be able to use it once to save your raid if you lose a key part member, but it should not be used as a substitute to people staying alive. If you're losing multiple party members multiple times, that should be a wipe with a scolding by the raid leader as you run back to your corpse

Solvryn

From Ashes? Only those granted the power to do so by the Goddess of Life herself. But I’d prefer there’s downed states then ashes. Introduces executes in that way.

Kilion

As a high cost, high casting time spell with massive threat generation - yes.

Having the cast take 30 seconds and taking 50% of the healers health all the while the huge manipulation of Essence pulling mobs towards the source of all that power seems like an appropriate frame for a resurrection spell. And of course there should be a big cooldown. With that, rez in 8 player groups would be very rare but viable for raids and across groups, opening up some interesting dynamics in the open world.

daveywavey

Definitely needed as a skill. I'd suggest that all archetypes should get it, but maybe the Support archetypes' skill should be stronger/more effective.

The ability to resurrect a fallen team-mate in combat can turn the tide of a battle. A "one death and you're out" sounds kinda lame.

Jhoren

A battle rez should be possible for a cleric. All 8 classes. Long casting time, lots of mana, cooldown etc.

I am not against Bards getting a battle rez ability as well actually, perhaps with a longer cooldown. It has to make sense with the rest of their skillset, however, and we're still in the dark on that.

Caww

the large scale sieges definitely need these mechanisms

Mag7spy

Only one that should have something like this is full cleric, and cleric / rogue Where you bring someone back from the dead and they fight for like 20 seconds before staying dead without as many draw backs.

Resing is powerful but there should be other types of powerful skills as well with other classes and not a bargain sale for every cleric class to be able to do it.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

With or without Weakened/Brink of Death?

Not sure what those are

I'm assuming smth like "if you were supposed to die you stay at 1hp instead?" And if that's correct then are we talking about a pre-death buff or just a normal passive on all archetypes?

Outside of that response, I guess I'm in, like, the super minority when it comes to this mechanic. Didn't really think I would be but it is what it is. I only now checked whether this topic has been brought up in the past (shoulda fucking done this before posting) and the general consensus of that thread was "have the rez but with a ton of limitations". So pretty much what we've got in this thread as well. At least I got a few new people to respond to the question, so I guess it's just a bit more feedback for Intrepid.

tautau

Since there are several different religions and since Religious nodes can choose to build advances shrines of one of the religions, perhaps this can be linked into the quality and timing of rezzes? For example, a cleric/cleric might have a quicker & more powerful rez than a cleric/summoner and, if the cleric/cleric held a more advanced rank in their religion, the rez could be faster and provide a greater % of hit points. If the cleric/cleric was the citizen of a node with a high level shrine then the rez is faster and even better.

I am suggesting that the quickness of casting the rez and the power (% of life returned) and even the number of available resurrections could all depend on:
- the secondary archetype of the cleric, with cleric/cleric the best
- the religion of the cleric, with differences between religions
- the level of the cleric
- the religious offices held by the cleric
- the level of shrine present in the cleric's home node
- possibly the magical enhancements on the cleric's weapon or other gear
- other possible factors

Good thread, thanks for posting it @NiKr

Mag7spy

tautau wrote: »

Since there are several different religions and since Religious nodes can choose to build advances shrines of one of the religions, perhaps this can be linked into the quality and timing of rezzes? For example, a cleric/cleric might have a quicker & more powerful rez than a cleric/summoner and, if the cleric/cleric held a more advanced rank in their religion, the rez could be faster and provide a greater % of hit points. If the cleric/cleric was the citizen of a node with a high level shrine then the rez is faster and even better.

I am suggesting that the quickness of casting the rez and the power (% of life returned) and even the number of available resurrections could all depend on:
- the secondary archetype of the cleric, with cleric/cleric the best
- the religion of the cleric, with differences between religions
- the level of the cleric
- the religious offices held by the cleric
- the level of shrine present in the cleric's home node
- possibly the magical enhancements on the cleric's weapon or other gear
- other possible factors

Good thread, thanks for posting it @NiKr

Id rather have classes skills with class skills then making it messing and having other factors besides class and gear. You shouldn't to get anything to do with religion to make your class kit preform better for cleric. That sounds convoluted for no reason on one class.

Only way to balance that out is by making every unique class have buffs to their skills or make them work different, and honestly that just seems like bloat for the sake of bloat.

Now this doesn't mean getting region up can't have its own perfects that benefit you that are not class dependent.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

With or without Weakened/Brink of Death?

Not sure what those are I'm assuming smth like "if you were supposed to die you stay at 1hp instead?" And if that's correct then are we talking about a pre-death buff or just a normal passive on all archetypes?

Outside of that response, I guess I'm in, like, the super minority when it comes to this mechanic. Didn't really think I would be but it is what it is. I only now checked whether this topic has been brought up in the past (shoulda fucking done this before posting) and the general consensus of that thread was "have the rez but with a ton of limitations". So pretty much what we've got in this thread as well. At least I got a few new people to respond to the question, so I guess it's just a bit more feedback for Intrepid.

Your HP, MP, and Accuracy are all set to 25% of normal for some time period after being Raised.

Die again while in that state and it gets worse.

With the idea being that if your team can manage without you for that period of time, you just get to rejoin the situation.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Your HP, MP, and Accuracy are all set to 25% of normal for some time period after being Raised.

Die again while in that state and it gets worse.

With the idea being that if your team can manage without you for that period of time, you just get to rejoin the situation.

Hmm, wouldn't the death penalty serve as that in Ashes? I'd prefer if cleric rez would remove 50% of the death penalty, while any rez item would just get you back on your feet but w/o removing the penalty.

I could definitely get behind the idea of repeated death reducing your stats even lower, cause that's how L2 worked as well.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Your HP, MP, and Accuracy are all set to 25% of normal for some time period after being Raised.

Die again while in that state and it gets worse.

With the idea being that if your team can manage without you for that period of time, you just get to rejoin the situation.

Hmm, wouldn't the death penalty serve as that in Ashes? I'd prefer if cleric rez would remove 50% of the death penalty, while any rez item would just get you back on your feet but w/o removing the penalty.

I could definitely get behind the idea of repeated death reducing your stats even lower, cause that's how L2 worked as well.

Sure, but this is my point.

Did you 'ask the question assuming the L2 one'?

Did you intend to ask assuming none? How long does the L2 one last? Is it something that happens even if you respawn at a respawn point?

We already know Resurrection was a Cleric Skill before and might be retained.

This is a really broad topic, so for me at least it was hard to answer the binary 'do you want it or not' without considering all that. It doesn't help that I've literally never thought about it outside of the FFXI one because most games I play don't have a meaningful equivalent. BDO basically just sells you the items and Guild Wars 2 as I remember it was... interesting? Weird? I guess not really, given the game's pacing.

I know that I don't like easy Rez, I know that without some form of penalty after it, certain behaviours that I don't like are encouraged. I also know that if you add a stronger penalty (FFXI tier) you can allow more methods for it ('Reraise' status effect, allows the player to Auto-Revive without anyone else interacting with them, but still applies Weakened) without it being terribly overpowered.

I'll have to think about how I feel about other characters being able to explicitly target and Raise fallen comrades with items in Ashes, but I didn't experience anything I considered a flaw in the way Reraise is handled in FF, nor do I particularly mind the Guild Wars/The Division systems even in MMOs if you add some Weakened/Death Penalty.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Did you 'ask the question assuming the L2 one'?

Did you intend to ask assuming none? How long does the L2 one last? Is it something that happens even if you respawn at a respawn point?

We already know Resurrection was a Cleric Skill before and might be retained.

My main goal with this post was just to see what people thought of combat rez, cause I think I've heard that wow didn't allow for it (or at least was very limited) and L2 not only let you rez single person but LITERALLY YOUR ENTIRE CLAN. And it also had not only an item that had slow cast for the rez (but really cheap price), but also a super quick cast one, but it was way more rare so the cost was way higher as well.

So based on those two things I wanted to see what the Ashes community leaned towards. And it's obvious that clan rez would definitely not be a thing and combat rez would be really limited. And with Intrepid's tendency to listen to feedback I imagine that they'll have something close to what people described here.

Obviously you immediately thought about the detailed design of the overall mechanic and any potential consequence of the action itself, but I think that in this case the general feedback would kinda drive the detailed design rather than the other way around.

If everyone wanted a quick battle rez or even a mass one, Intrepid would then think of ways how to balance it correctly. But considering that everyone already wants a super limited one, Intrepid can go much smaller in their design scale for these interactions. Well, at least I see no real point in overly punishing people for getting a rez if that rez can only happen once a 30min period or smth like that. Maybe I'm wrong in that assumption though.

Ludullu

Oh, and I forgot to mention. That L2 death penalty had some chance to appear (wasn't 100%) on any death. And you had to buy an item of the proper grade to remove it. So it wasn't directly linked to rezing mechanics. And unless you ran out of items, it wouldn't matter all that much because you'd ever be at lvl2-3 max.

Songcaller

I've utilized combat rez on a 60 second cooldown in some games. Doesn't make or break a raid. You merely create tactics and priorities based around whether a combat rez is available or not.

Fantmx

I would say yes to this idea. I have never understood why from a lore perspective games only allow this out of combat. I get that they use this to make things more challenging but having a healer stop mid raid to raise the dead also adds in challenge.

Iskiab

I think so yes, I don’t see a reason why not so add it.

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