Throne & Liberty : finaly so different (edit)

"Get out fast AoC or you’ll be overtaken by Throne & Liberty" I’ve seen this comment many times. now I’m sure these two games don’t have much to do with it.

For my part, botting options are absolutely repulsive, and the opposite of what I look for in an MMO, namely the investment and the value it gives to the gaming experience.

Pwahahaha who wants to pay a battle pass to activate offline boting? Paying for not playing is great : the inovation of the century

In short, fully supports the AoC project, take the time I trust in your passionate approach!

Edit : My original title / post was definitely uninspired and toxic. On a better day today, I prefer to avoid that;)

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Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Any game in which PvP exists is best served by keeping its players closer together in progression, not further apart.

But that's my point though. Autobattling keeps them progressing at all. W/o it they'd just play their 1-2h a day and be completely stuck in low lvls (in the context of L2-like grindy mmos of course). Hardcores will be ahead no matter what, but autobattling keeps the casuals at least moving forward at all times.

Any casual that wants to play pure manual when they can would always be welcomed to do so, while hardcores would just always be manual because they're always playing. And the good pve/p content would happen during primetime and be manual due to its difficulty and general appeal of the gameplay.

Casual players don't have any trouble taking on base population - the kind of content you would use an auto fighting system on. Killing that content is not what prevents casual players moving forward (or, more to the point, keeping pace with others).

If this was a system designed with the intent along the lines of what you are talking about, then it would be an offline system.

What this system is, when you look at the game as a whole, it a system to facilitate the way Koreans play games in general.

As most people probably know, most gaming in Korea takes place in what we generally call "Internet cafes", even if the term isn't really applicable to these kinds of places.

Where we in the west generally tend to log on to our MMO at home and join up with some internet friends (and occasionally real friends), in Korea they tend to meet up with their real friends in these "internet cafes", and play games.

The game they are playing takes a back seat to the fact that they are just spending time with friends.

This - among other things - is why the Korean population is much more accepting of PvP, and PvP loss, than the west. In Korea, the game isn't the focus of the activity people are doing, spending time with their friends is the focus. In the west, the game is the focus, and so loss in PvP is far more impactful. This is why most PvP focused MMO's (going back to L2) survive basically purely on their Korean population, and to a lesser extend their Japanese population. There are a few exceptions to this, but for the most part, PvP MMO's that didn't capture a solid Korean market didn't last long (Wildstar, for example).

This feature allows people in that market to spend more time laughing and joking with their friends, and less time having to be laser focused on the action in the game - because laughing and joking with friends is where the Korean market get their MMO entertainment from.

That is all it is, there is no real point looking for any deeper purpose to it.

Depraved

if auto battle is op, no one wants it. if auto battle is not op, no one wants it xDDD

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

This - among other things - is why the Korean population is much more accepting of PvP, and PvP loss, than the west. In Korea, the game isn't the focus of the activity people are doing, spending time with their friends is the focus. In the west, the game is the focus, and so loss in PvP is far more impactful. This is why most PvP focused MMO's (going back to L2) survive basically purely on their Korean population, and to a lesser extend their Japanese population. There are a few exceptions to this, but for the most part, PvP MMO's that didn't capture a solid Korean market didn't last long (Wildstar, for example).

This feature allows people in that market to spend more time laughing and joking with their friends, and less time having to be laser focused on the action in the game - because laughing and joking with friends is where the Korean market get their MMO entertainment from.

That is all it is, there is no real point looking for any deeper purpose to it.

They also do well in the CIS countries, because the gaming culture here comes from the same internet cafes. But it still got transferred to post-cafe times, because people still just want to hang out in the game and not flame each other for failing a single mechanic during a boss. People here (as well as in asia) are also more fine with being a "cog in the machine" rather than a super individualistic personality. Which leads most to think "a few deaths here and there won't matter as much, as long as they lead to the success of the guild". While at least the WoW crowd seems to concentrate on their personal performance during raids and their own parses. I'm sure EQ2 was better about it than WoW.

This is probably why I'm way more fine with autobattling. I'm used to just grinding some dumb mobs with the bois and hardcore pvping some dudes here and now, because they also wanted to grind the same mobs.

I'm very curious how Ashes ends up on release, because it tries to apply western culture to eastern designs. It's gonna be really interesting seeing people's reaction to it.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

While at least the WoW crowd seems to concentrate on their personal performance during raids and their own parses. I'm sure EQ2 was better about it than WoW.

In my experience of EQ and EQ2, there is almost none of that behavior that is so prevalent in WoW.

That is because the EQ games discourage it (raiding with the same people every week, smaller pool of players to recruit from if you piss off guildmates, smaller pool of guilds to join if you get booted), whereas WoW encourages it (able to raid with random people from any server in your region).

The autobattling in T&L is the game developer making the game to fit the way it will be played, the raid structure of the above games is the game developer making the game to shape the way it will be played.

As to what you are saying about CIS countries, I cant say I'm surprised. I was unaware that the internet cafe paradigm was a thing there, but in hindsight it explains a fair amount about how people from those countries used to play EQ2 (literally just ignored everyone else on the server). If guilds are all together in the same location, that makes perfect sense.

If also explains why people from that region didnt last all that long in EQ2 - the game is simply not designed to be consumed in that manner. You have stretches of 90 minutes at a time where you do indeed need to be laser focused on the game.

This last point is what I think players, "influencers" and even some developers are totally forgetting. They look at Korean games and try to dissect it based on how we consume MMO's in the west, rather than considering how the Korean market consumes them.

This has led to many MMO developers developing games for the west that simply dont work, because they take things designed for a different method of consumption.

To bring this back to what I have been saying for years on these forums, this is why I believe Ashes needs more of a PvE focus than it currently has.

Or a strong marketing push in Korea.

Laetitian

Depraved wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

did u watch the video? the guy is aoeing manually...so playing manually > auto hunting. that was the point of my post ._.

but its much better and rewarding to play manually.

And that is my exact point. Every casual player will be using autobattling. But because manual battling is way more profitable, you'll be way ahead of those autobattlers. Which means that autobattling is beneficial to anyone who doesn't use it.

Huh? It could only be better for active players, if autobattlers (the active players' competition) would be playing manually if autobattling didn't exist. But wouldn't the real alternative you'd have to compare it against be that they wouldn't battle at all? So the existence of the autobattler just arbitrarily changes the gap between engaged and unengaged players.
If that's the goal, you could just change the progression curve from the start. Save active players some time and still reward them to the same extent for the extent that they're ahead of the competition.
Seems like a weak argument.

It took a friend of mine a month of playing a good Western MMO to ask me why he had ever played Asian ones, and these types of mechanics are the reason why. I really don't think they deserve a word of defence, even if it's only "but it doesn't affect you."

It's something that makes a game worse. Not bad. But worse.

then you will have one more game where u reach max lvl in 2 weeks and people will complain that its too quick, etc etc.

ppl r never happy. also I'm sure they want to attract a mobile audience, plus it kinda helps leveling the playing field vs bots, a bit at least

There's a vast difference between reaching the level & gear cap right after a game's release, and subsequent increases of caps in later years. You don't need autolevelling to keep casuals closer to tryhards following the release because it's expected that players who rarely play won't yet be able to keep up with powerlevellers, until they invest the time and play enough to get closer to the level cap - at which point they won't be immediately able to 1v1 a tryhard, but they'll at least stand more of a chance, and they'll pull some weight in a 2v2.
That's normal and expected by any reasonable player. Even appreciated by most of them - casuals and powerlevellers alike. It's the whole point of the existence of vertical progression.

And then in later updates when new level limits are released, you just adjust the extent of power increase awarded to fervent tryhards depending on how enthusiastically the rest of the playerbase is motivated to keep up with them.
- If most average players are farming with decent motivation, you don't need "autolevelling" because the casuals are sufficiently keeping up the pace anyway.
- If most average players are falling and staying behind the tryhards so much that they feel like they can't compete anymore, you just tone down how much more powerful the powerlevellers get from powerlevelling.

The concept of autolevelling as a part of game design is just inherently flawed, and an obvious bandaid for bad decisions in the foundational progression system.

Same for levelling with scripted bots. If bot grinds (that aren't just running 24/7 - in which case you're just lazy if you can't ban them) can be that much of an issue, clearly your XP or loot rewards don't entice the right type of challenging, interesting gameplay in the first place.

NiKr wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

It took a friend of mine a month of playing a good Western MMO to ask me why he had ever played Asian ones, and these types of mechanics are the reason why. I really don't think they deserve a word of defence, even if it's only "but it doesn't affect you."

I'm curious, which game was it.

It was Metin 2, which is obviously not exactly a shining example of what the Asian market has to offer. But I still know I can use it as an example, because since then I've tried and watched plenty of games from that side of the globe, and they all shared the same glaring issues. The way they discouraged player co-operation during general gameplay, and creative levelling methods (by making the path of least resistance far too efficient), was on top of the list, and things like autolevelling or mindless, soul-less questing (though this one's equally common in Western MMO designs) were certainly part of that problem.

(If you meant what game I converted him to, that was Regnum Online. [Ignore the lack of a skill bar and the guy's slow playstyle in the video. Just the clearest recording of RvR gameplay that seems to be out there. You can see his active buffs/debuffs, and in other videos you can see skill bar rotations, more skill expression, and more updated graphics.]
Niche RvR game developed in South America. It had uninteresting PvE, but encouraged socialisation and group-play optimisation at all levels, and everyone around you was always getting ready to enter the warzone and do their part in, or leave their mark on, the ongoing sieges & invasions.
Other games I've played had better PvE that rewarded challenges and risks even more, but this RvR game was what converted my friend.)

As you could probably tell from past comments I've agreed with you on, I don't think Lineage is a bad game by any means. I'm only concerned with the particular features that tend to be repeated in Asian MMO design more out of habit than for any real benefit, and whose net impact on a game I would consider objectively harmful.

NiKr wrote: »

W/o autobattling you either have a grand canyon of difference between the two or the hardcores don't even have anything to do so they just leave.

This is the flawed assumption that your argument collapses on.
Once you reach a certain soft level & gear cap, levelling neither can, nor should be, the only thing you can do that has meaning. Even besides PvP (And that's already a huge element, whether it's done for the heck of it or for temporary benefits of location/objective control), depending on your preference, you can for example: a) Conquer and defend territory and grow nodes according to your vision. (AoC-specific, but you get the idea) b) Generally affect the world in a way that suits you. c) Help other guild members get closer to your strength level by crafting or farming items for them, running caravans, etc. d) Engage in politics. Or e) if it's your thing, chase high scores and ever more unique items to show off that no casuals will ever attain, regardless of the levelling system.

Continuing to progress (ever more slowly, the higher you get - that's how you keep casuals relevant) is just one thing you spend your time on in endgame. It's not the only thing you can do. So it doesn't need to be rewarding enough to be the driver of player retention on its own. It's the sum of endgame options that makes it worth it, even if character growth is the most important one to you.

Veeshan

Throne and liberty looks dead on arrival from the review of players that seen the actually gameplay from the test they had

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

Throne and liberty looks dead on arrival from the review of players that seen the actually gameplay from the test they had

The Korean reviews I've seen are almost all really positive about it.

Funniest thing. A Korean developed game designed for Korean MMO consumption is looking like it will be popular in Korea but not in other regions.

If only someone realized this years ago...

Selo

Try Lineage 2M. It looks and plays just like TL

Ludullu

For anyone who might still be interested, there's a beta test sign-up now
https://www.playthroneandliberty.com/

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

For anyone who might still be interested, there's a beta test sign-up now
https://www.playthroneandliberty.com/

You going to play on Na ;o

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

You going to play on Na ;o

Test is a test! When the game comes out here, I'm gonna play here

Let's gooooo. Definitely playing when it's out.

Percimes

Do'h. My PC doesn't even meet the minimum specs requirements, almost but not quite. Not upgrading for a beta, I'll wait for a worthier moment.

Ludullu

Percimes wrote: »

Do'h. My PC doesn't even meet the minimum specs requirements, almost but not quite. Not upgrading for a beta, I'll wait for a worthier moment.

Yeah, I'm right on the edge of minimals, so considering their optimization I should be able to run it somewhat fine. But this definitely makes me think that I'll have to upgrade my entire fucking PC by the time Ashes rolls around. Maybe even for its Alpha2

Ludullu

NiKr wrote: »

Let's gooooo. Definitely playing when it's out.

I fucking hate Amazon

Songcaller

Lol. At least you didn't buy the top package of archeage only to have the game refuse to download due to region lock. Hopefully you haven't paid anything for t&l.

Laetitian

Neurath wrote: »

Lol. At least you didn't buy the top package of archeage only to have the game refuse to download due to region lock. Hopefully you haven't paid anything for t&l.

I downloaded ArcheAge on Trion release in Europe. Do you live somewhere remote or do you mean one of the re-publishings? Oh, or did you mean the Asian servers? I don't think those were ever advertised to be available outside of their server countries...I'm pretty sure the hype around Trion existed specifically because everyone knew the original publisher restricted everything to their home countries.

Songcaller

My American friend told me to get the game but I an in uk. I waited a year to have the issue patched, but it never was. Thus, lost my refund ability. I couldn't download from Europe servers or US servers for some reason. Didn't have dodgy scripts either lol.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

My American friend told me to get the game but I an in uk. I waited a year to have the issue patched, but it never was. Thus, lost my refund ability. I couldn't download from Europe servers or US servers for some reason. Didn't have dodgy scripts either lol.

If this is Archeage you are talking about, it sounds to me like you accidently purchased from XLGames rather than Trion.

XL was the publisher in Korea, and required a connection in Korea to download. Trion was the NA/EU publisher, and had the game available to people in the UK for beta, as well as release.

Songcaller

Which version did steam sell? Any idea?

Noaani

Archeage on Steam was only ever the NA/EU version., about six months after the standalone release.

Assuming you went as far as setting up a Trion account, and had no VPN installed or configured in a way that could interfere, that sounds like a Steam issue.

There were many UK players at launch, so it wasn't a region thing.

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