AoC isn't as Niche as everyone thinks

So here's my take...

WoW Hardcore, Extraction Shooters, Survival, Classic WoW. We are definitely seeing a trend in what gamers want. Theme Park/Railroad content games are going the way of Guitar Hero.

Blizzard saw so much success with Classic and Hardcore they made them official.

Survival games,some if not most have come with hardcore rule sets,( dropping all gear, open PVP) Ark being one of the biggest had both of these. Now even Blizzard is jumping in although I suspect it will be a watered down for everyone experience.

Extraction shooters stemming from Tarkov's success(very hardcore style game) have started popping up everywhere.

If I know one thing it's when companies and investors start putting their money in to it you know the numbers are there in some fashion and they like what they see.

All I hear from everyone, Including Asmongold and other streamers is this is a niche game and it's not for everyone. Don While I don't disagree I think the degree of which they are implying is over stated, to the point that they think it might not be a very big game at all.

While it certainly won't be COD, I also think it's potential could be much higher then New World saw at its peak. Which would be considered a massive success.

I Understand that people don't want to get their hopes up and there's a lot of cynical people and deservedly so but if I am going to be real about it, the more I see the better it gets. It's like going from a narcissistic relationship to a healthy one, sometimes it just seems too good to be true but that's more about your past relationship then your current one. Just like that I think it's only fair we treat AoC and the devs with their fair shake. They have done nothing but be completely upfront and honest and currently in my eyes have the most integrity I have seen in a while and I have been around for a while.(I played UO and EQ1 a lot)

There is a lot to look forward to and don't let your past disappoints ruin your experience. Judge it on its own merits. Don't buy into the cynical majority and copy past the copium quotes. I might be disappointed, that's definitely a possibility but I am also ok with that. At least as far as I can tell they are putting their best foot forward and for now that's enough.

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Comments

Voeltz

@Trustmebro666 wrote:

Hmm, you say that people don't want the same things as they did 20 years ago, but Ashes of Creation is far closer to those games from 20 years ago than it is to modern MMORPGs. So, with this logic, people don't want Ashes of Creation?

Ashes is nothing like any of the popular MMOs of that time aside from Lineage 2. If you're going to say things like that, at least have some idea of what you're talking about.

Using other PvP games that don't require you to pick flowers or kill rats for 200-300 hours before you can get into proper PvP isn't really a good point when it comes to the popularity of PvP in MMORPGs.

Define "proper PvP". You don't have to be 200 hours in to experience PvP in the game, you can do it at any level and there are plenty of systems for it.

There is an audience for this game; it just won't be that big, and that's completely fine. Any game where other players can decide if you are having fun or not in the context of MMORPGs will be niche. It might start big, but these systems will eventually cannibalize the player base. It's not like this hasn't happened multiple times already. AoC isn't going to be any different.

A lot of baseless speculation here. Your entire arguement is based on your emotions. Nobody knows for sure how popular/unpopular it will be and anyone making those claims are clueless. Stop projecting your doom and gloom on everyone else. You're exactly the kind of negativity the OP is talking about. Past failures do not guarantee failures ahead, especially when we're talking about entirely different games and people developing them. If anything, those failures will help Ashes succeed by avoiding the same mistakes. This is an entirely new game with new systems, a new development team and monetary decisions.

Dygz

Solvryn wrote: »

Could be, never really had an argument against your opinion.

Just lotta people throw around words to devalue the opinions of others.

Some, perhaps.
And some people have a more negative concept of the terms than other people.

Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

They also mentioned a counterpoint about things like Survival games and Extraction shooters, and mentioned 'bigger than New World', so I've been going with 'New World isn't quite niche and anything bigger than that isn't niche' + 'The rising popularity of hardcore games such as Tarkov implies that gaming's populace would push Ashes beyond niche'.

By niche, I mean near EvE Online, ArcheAge and Lineage II numbers.
People can play New World like they're on a PvE-Only server, so... I doubt Ashes will have higher numbers than New World.

With all the SOE devs on the Ashes team, I thought they were hoping to have similar population numbers to EQ and would want players who typically play on PvE-Only servers to feel comfortable playing Ashes.
But, they aren't designing for fans of EQ.
They are designing for fans of EvE Online, ArcheAge and Lineage II.

BlackBrony

For me yeah. I'm gonna play the game, but I can hardly see why a PvEr would enjoy this game. Everything sets you back. If you go out of a protected zone, you risk dying, losing mats, xp and time.
There's no choice. Going out of a protected zone means you accept the ToS of "death is a given".
People keep saying "solo players will gather mats and explore".
I mean... yeah, you could do that. But then you have to return home, and I bet you someone is going to gank you, and now you're forced to either PvP or lose a lot of mats. I mean, if you die you always lose, and that's the thing PvErs might not be good a PvP, and they lose.

Dygz

PvEers might be great at PvP.
But you still lose even if you win the combat encounter - if you have to PvP when you're not in the mood for PvP.

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

PvEers might be great at PvP.
But you still lose even if you win the combat encounter - if you have to PvP when you're not in the mood for PvP.

There's also the relatively constant problem in games that builds that are specifically good at 'killing other people' are not often the builds that are good at 'doing other things' almost by definition. So a person who is 'always in the mood for PvP' starts at the technical advantage.

Even if you can beat them every time, for some people, fighting against the technical advantage isn't necessarily fun. The first few times it's, at best, a boost to the ego, but the 'problem' with winning the encounter against a weaker player who just wants to fight when you don't, is that this person has zero incentive to stop attacking or disrupting you.

They didn't get corrupted, because they lost.

At least in Ashes they will get some exp debt, though, so hopefully that will be enough, but that process isn't likely to be very fast, or it'd be double-edged.

ZippyA

Azherae wrote: »

the 'problem' with winning the encounter against a weaker player who just wants to fight when you don't, is that this person has zero incentive to stop attacking or disrupting you.

Bacause no risk i.e. no drop PvP sucks and incentivises use of bots. Add drop of gear/gold/exp and people will think twice before attacking a stronger person.
If you are in no mood for PvP just flee or hide better.

Azherae

ZippyA wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

the 'problem' with winning the encounter against a weaker player who just wants to fight when you don't, is that this person has zero incentive to stop attacking or disrupting you.

Bacause no risk i.e. no drop PvP sucks. Add drop of gear/gold/exp and people will think twice before attacking a stronger person.
If you are in no mood for PvP just flee or hide better.

I consider people who are carrying anything of meaningful value to them, that they can drop, when engaging in PvP that they personally start, to be playing suboptimally, so I don't really consider them as much.

If they're losing the fight, they're not corrupted, so after the first loss they can go store anything of value and come back and keep attacking with only the exp being the loss, as the design is now.

I haven't played a game where the exp loss or the equivalent of exp loss was ever enough to deter this specific type of person enough that I didn't have to deal with them repeatedly.

ZippyA

Azherae wrote: »

If they're losing the fight, they're not corrupted, so after the first loss they can go store anything of value and come back and keep attacking with only the exp being the loss, as the design is now.

I understand what the scenario you are talking about, but I think the problem would be a bit different.
If they know where you are and you stay there after being attacked, I guess you are fkd anyways.
They can put a good gear on or come in numbers and you are dead. They will keep on coming if that is what they want. IMHO nobody will keep coming to die, they will be returning to kill you.

Fiddlez

BlackBrony wrote: »

For me yeah. I'm gonna play the game, but I can hardly see why a PvEr would enjoy this game. Everything sets you back. If you go out of a protected zone, you risk dying, losing mats, xp and time.
There's no choice. Going out of a protected zone means you accept the ToS of "death is a given".
People keep saying "solo players will gather mats and explore".
I mean... yeah, you could do that. But then you have to return home, and I bet you someone is going to gank you, and now you're forced to either PvP or lose a lot of mats. I mean, if you die you always lose, and that's the thing PvErs might not be good a PvP, and they lose.

People are coming at this from a Theme park perspective. That the reward must always be some material thing. People who give it a chance will realize that the the reward is far better.

If you do play this game. It will be the experience you come back for and you will learn to love it. Plus your items increase in value in a round about way so it's all relative really

Ratzu

Dygz wrote: »

I doubt Ashes will have higher numbers than New World.

I'll take that bet. I get that you are a carebear and you don't want to be made to PVP, but why is it so hard for you to believe that many many other people actually enjoy competitive PvX gameplay that involves PvP? Yea, it can be frustrating when another player engages you in combat when you weren't ready or were hoping to play more passively, but it is a small price to pay to get to experience an open world with an ever-present sense of danger that requires gamers to engage with their surroundings and think carefully about their choices rather than mindlessly grind mobs or pick flowers while second-screening Netflix because worlds in PvE games are so damn boring.

Many many people are looking forward to this game's design, which you surely know otherwise you wouldn't still be sticking around, but almost all of your forum comments are unsubstantiated speculation predicting doom for the game if Intrepid doesn't redesign core pillars around your personal gameplay preferences. We already have PvE games out there that you can go play right now and continue to play even after Ashes launches. Why try to make this game something it isn't trying to be? Are you just trolling the forums at this point?

Azherae

Ratzu wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I doubt Ashes will have higher numbers than New World.

I'll take that bet. I get that you are a carebear and you don't want to be made to PVP, but why is it so hard for you to believe that many many other people actually enjoy competitive PvX gameplay that involves PvP? Yea, it can be frustrating when another player engages you in combat when you weren't ready or were hoping to play more passively, but it is a small price to pay to get to experience an open world with an ever-present sense of danger that requires gamers to engage with their surroundings and think carefully about their choices rather than mindlessly grind mobs or pick flowers while second-screening Netflix because worlds in PvE games are so damn boring.

Many many people are looking forward to this game's design, which you surely know otherwise you wouldn't still be sticking around, but almost all of your forum comments are unsubstantiated speculation predicting doom for the game if Intrepid doesn't redesign core pillars around your personal gameplay preferences. We already have PvE games out there that you can go play right now and continue to play even after Ashes launches. Why try to make this game something it isn't trying to be? Are you just trolling the forums at this point?

I always feel like people who have this reaction at this strength are really insecure about the game's design.

But once again...

Dygz has not said nor done any of these things.

Is it okay if I bot an autoresponder for these or is that against Forum TOS?

Ratzu

No @Azherae I just know a forum troll when I see one. His comments about doom and gloom unless Intrepid does exactly what he asks for add absolutely nothing of value to this conversation.

Azherae

Ratzu wrote: »

No @Azherae I just know a forum troll when I see one. His comments about doom and gloom unless Intrepid does exactly what he asks for add absolutely nothing of value to this conversation.

Yeah ok. Seems indeed one cannot win.

Doom and gloom you say?

New World has at least 100,000 players daily supposedly.

Tiresome, but it's technically our fault for being here.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

New World has at least 100,000 players daily supposedly.

Steam charts say ~25k at peak daily with ~15k average. That might be around 100k overall dailies, but with servers supposedly being 10k active in Ashes, having barely 2 full servers (most likely 1 NA and 1 EU) would be quite small.

The important thing is that Dygz didn't specifically say which numbers he was talking about. NW had a mil on release, which probably meant several million purchases, which would be great for Ashes even if they get a bit less.

AoC would just need to go down in numbers slower than NW did.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

New World has at least 100,000 players daily supposedly.

Steam charts say ~25k at peak daily with ~15k average. That might be around 100k overall dailies, but with servers supposedly being 10k active in Ashes, having barely 2 full servers (most likely 1 NA and 1 EU) would be quite small.

The important thing is that Dygz didn't specifically say which numbers he was talking about. NW had a mil on release, which probably meant several million purchases, which would be great for Ashes even if they get a bit less.

AoC would just need to go down in numbers slower than NW did.

I feel the numbers are honestly more of a generation thing when i think about it. Back than people had less access to information, it took longer to get the game, and more hoops were needed. Rather than gaining those players overtime be it months or year, etc. A lot of people are jumping on within the first week. And why naturally the new pattern is a ton of people with a lot of people falling off quickly, over ramping up over time.

Fiddlez

I would request that if you feel a certain way that you provide a reason why. Otherwise you might need to admit that you are making it based on pure emotional. I think my original post might be for you.

New world was a very different MMO-wise at least then anything else on the market. RuneScape probably being close but there's some pretty obvious differences.Combined with It being Amazons first real game release(not including the failed launches) it was huge. People are thirsty for something new.

I honestly compare most MMOs to guitar hero because there hasn't been any real innovation, it's just over saturation of the same thing with minor differences. Rockband was" different" but was it really?

I think numbers wise people are basing it on past experiences. New World dropped off a lot because it wasn't completed and the experience was empty and drawn out. Some would argue every game falls off but that's also under the context of how games are made these days. To be instant gratification or seasonal. To capitalize income over experience.

It's all the same formula and I don't think anyone should expect a different result, in any fashion. Intrepid and Steven are offering a different formula and basing your opinion on the old one just doesn't make any sense.

Just for the record WoW was being developed at the same time as EQ2. EQ was Goliath and it was dwarfed by WoW. Everyone I knew was saying it would fail because it was too cartoony and only kids would play it. Some of you just need to admit that you are pessimistic or cynical and your opinion isn't based on anything other then how you feel.

Dygz

ZippyA wrote: »

Bacause no risk i.e. no drop PvP sucks and incentivises use of bots. Add drop of gear/gold/exp and people will think twice before attacking a stronger person.
If you are in no mood for PvP just flee or hide better.

Better yet, just go play an MMORPG where people don't have to flee from other players.

Dygz

Ratzu wrote: »

I'll take that bet. I get that you are a carebear and you don't want to be made to PVP, but why is it so hard for you to believe that many many other people actually enjoy competitive PvX gameplay that involves PvP?

Um. I think it's not hard to believe that - since I do believe that.
I would just phrase that as - many, many people actually enjoy hardcore PvP MMORPGs, like EvE Online, ArcheAge and Lineage II... and Ashes of Creation.

Ratzu wrote: »

Many many people are looking forward to this game's design, which you surely know otherwise you wouldn't still be sticking around

Yep. Many, many people are looking forward to this game's design. We agree!!!
It's just not as many as there were before changes to the design, like the Open Seas.
And some casuals are not particularly happy about Bidding for Freeholds.

Ratzu wrote: »

almost all of your forum comments are unsubstantiated speculation predicting doom for the game if Intrepid doesn't redesign core pillars around your personal gameplay preferences. We already have PvE games out there that you can go play right now and continue to play even after Ashes launches. Why try to make this game something it isn't trying to be? Are you just trolling the forums at this point?

Nope. I have not predicted doom for Ashes.
I've predicted success along the lines of success for EvE Online, ArcheAge and Lineage II.
I now don't think it's going to come close to EQ/EQ2 population numbers. Previously, I was expecting the SOE devs and Lead Game Designer to be striving to create a game that players who loved EQ/EQ2 would want to play. But, after Jeffrey Bard left, Steven made changes to the design that makes the game signifcantly more hardcore and PvP-centric than EQ/EQ2. And that is very likely to push many, many casuals and PvEers away from the game.
As Steven began to stress after Jeffrey Bard left Intrepid Studios - Ashes is not made for everyone.
And that's OK.

I haven't asked for any changes to the current vision for the game. I haven't asked for the game to be anything.
I expect the game to be exactly how Steven envisions the game.
We'll just wait to see how accurate my prediction is once the game launches.

What I did ask for, which should have some value for these forums, is for Steven to join us on The Ashen Forge last weekend so that he could share some new info with everyone.
And I assure you, I would not have done that if I thought the game was doomed to fail.

(Also, I haven't said that Ashes population numbers will be similar to EvE Online numbers. I said I think Steven will consider Ashes to be a success if Ashes gets popluation numbers similar to EvE Online or Lineage II. Even better if Ashes can get significantly higher numbers than that.)

JamesSunderland

Dygz wrote: »

Nope. I have not predicted doom for Ashes.
I've predicted success along the lines of success for EvE Online, ArcheAge and Lineage II.
I now don't think it's going to come close to EQ/EQ2 population numbers.

You're are talking about West(NA/EU) only right?
If you take in consideration numbers from the East(Korea, Russia, China, Japan and etc)
Lineage and Lineage II population numbers were far greater than EQ and EQ2 in a global scale.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100701045444/http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

For EvE Online you are correct, EQ/EQ2 numbers were higher.

As you can see Lineage reached over 3 million in its highest peak and Lineage 2 over 2 million in its highest peak, Numbers far beyond EQ and EQ2 highest peaks which remained consistently bellow the 500 thousands.

As for Archeage it's hard to get its numbers, but its highest peak is estimated to be 2 Million during its Release by Trion, wasn't able find numbers for the very populated KR server and RU server during their gold eras tho.

If Ashes reach L2/AA Highest population peaks, i certainly believe Steven will be quite happy.

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