Ashes of Creation HAS NEVER PIVOTED from its CORE DESIGN!

Ayeveegaming1

Great video documenting this:

https://youtu.be/x38RLluHpBs

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Shabooey

Strap yourself in for this thread haha

Interesting take, thanks for sharing it.

Quarantine

I appreciate that someone went through the effort to research the topic.

I think many of us had made assumptions, and that has given us some big disappointments. For myself, I really was interested in getting into breeding. Since my playstyle simply can't keep up with the big boys, I'm just going to have to change my plans.

I knew that there was a possibility of being disappointed in a million ways by backing a Kickstarter game. In the ways that truly matter, Intrepid hasn't disappointed me.

Liniker

Quarantine wrote: »

I think many of us had made assumptions, and that has given us some big disappointments.

Spot on, and this is something that happens with every new MMO announced, the more you know - the less hype you have, and there will never be a game that will live up to the expectations and assumptions we make.

and this applies to a lot of things, if you look up guild recruitment posts and see the sheer amount of guilds that claim they will be server first, rank 1, castle owners, and so on, the reality is 90% of those will have their dreams crushed

Vyril

Liniker wrote: »

Quarantine wrote: »

I think many of us had made assumptions, and that has given us some big disappointments.

Spot on, and this is something that happens with every new MMO announced, the more you know - the less hype you have, and there will never be a game that will live up to the expectations and assumptions we make.

and this applies to a lot of things, if you look up guild recruitment posts and see the sheer amount of guilds that claim they will be server first, rank 1, castle owners, and so on, the reality is 90% of those will have their dreams crushed

*walks over to the guild recruitment forum*

Now I'm curious

Fantmx

I have said numerous times that the message has been consistent. I even put together a video to highlight just that when it came to the character creator.

I start to falter when that discussion comes to freeholds.

Why I take this a little bit more personally isn't just the fact that Steven said in 2022, as the video points out, that anyone who put the effort in would get a freehold even though it would be a monumental achievement. It is that I specifically asked him in 2018 if I put in the work would I get to own a freehold and the answer was yes anyone that put in the work could. He again stated it would be a difficult achievement but ultimately yes we could. This question was also phrased as a single player experience.

So we had 5 years of being told anyone that put in the effort and work could obtain a freehold and then this year we are told it would only around 10% and likely the only way a casual time player could obtain one was through trying to make enough gold to buy one or possibly earn enough alternative currency but we would still be bidding against others with likely more time and money.

Now, I am all for change when change is needed. So they have seen something that told them to do this. And I will adjust. I will still play. And I will still try to own a freehold. But this part of the vision did change in my eyes. And unfortunately (watch any of the three interviews with Steven) all I have ever wanted to do in Ashes was own a freehold.

I will also point out as a side note that the pillars cited in the wiki and on the website that were cited in the video are different from those that are in the Kickstarter video. I point this out to Lex and now there is a historical section in the wiki. The article that gets cited was from March 2017 while the Kickstarter video is May of 2017. I think this change was made to make it easier for the general public to understand but it removed risk vs reward as a pillar and introduced economy as a pillar among a few of changes.

Again I am 100% a supporter of this game. But in this I will likely never completely agree. It is just a new challenge to overcome.

PherPhur

Fantmx wrote: »

then this year we are told it would only around 10%

Steven shot himself in the foot by saying this. Cause it still stood that anyone who put in enough effort could own one. If all available ones are taken, you have to put together a successful siege. If you don't have enough gold to win a bid, you save up. Eventually you should be able to save up enough to win a bid.

Might take a couple years, but hey, he did say it would be a "monumental achievement", monumental is a big word and I don't think he was using it lightly.

Raven016

Liniker wrote: »

Quarantine wrote: »

I think many of us had made assumptions, and that has given us some big disappointments.

Spot on, and this is something that happens with every new MMO announced, the more you know - the less hype you have,
...

Is this true for everybody?

oOKingOo

I can only confirm that. Ive recently started to watch the earliest videos and livestreams on the AoC youtube channel and they didnt change anything on the core pillars or philosophy of the game. Its just rly alot of content out there from alot of ppl so maybe some ppl dont fact check and just say something they heard some other youtuber say.

oOKingOo

Raven016 wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Quarantine wrote: »

I think many of us had made assumptions, and that has given us some big disappointments.

Spot on, and this is something that happens with every new MMO announced, the more you know - the less hype you have,
...

Is this true for everybody?

Not at all for me. I dont get hyped about many games and the ones i do get hyped about usually dont dissapoint me so theres no reason to not get hyped. I just go based of what i see and dont try to judge too much. From what i think to know about ppl i think the guys at entrepit are not here to shit on us as players so i put my trust in them and approch the whole thing with a "im pretty sure they got this but lets give some feedback where i can to help give them ideas" attitude.

oOKingOo

Fantmx wrote: »

I have said numerous times that the message has been consistent. I even put together a video to highlight just that when it came to the character creator.

I start to falter when that discussion comes to freeholds.

Why I take this a little bit more personally isn't just the fact that Steven said in 2022, as the video points out, that anyone who put the effort in would get a freehold even though it would be a monumental achievement. It is that I specifically asked him in 2018 if I put in the work would I get to own a freehold and the answer was yes anyone that put in the work could. He again stated it would be a difficult achievement but ultimately yes we could. This question was also phrased as a single player experience.

So we had 5 years of being told anyone that put in the effort and work could obtain a freehold and then this year we are told it would only around 10% and likely the only way a casual time player could obtain one was through trying to make enough gold to buy one or possibly earn enough alternative currency but we would still be bidding against others with likely more time and money.

Now, I am all for change when change is needed. So they have seen something that told them to do this. And I will adjust. I will still play. And I will still try to own a freehold. But this part of the vision did change in my eyes. And unfortunately (watch any of the three interviews with Steven) all I have ever wanted to do in Ashes was own a freehold.

I will also point out as a side note that the pillars cited in the wiki and on the website that were cited in the video are different from those that are in the Kickstarter video. I point this out to Lex and now there is a historical section in the wiki. The article that gets cited was from March 2017 while the Kickstarter video is May of 2017. I think this change was made to make it easier for the general public to understand but it removed risk vs reward as a pillar and introduced economy as a pillar among a few of changes.

Again I am 100% a supporter of this game. But in this I will likely never completely agree. It is just a new challenge to overcome.

You will absolutely be able to have one if you put the work in. Its just unlikely a casual player will have the time to put the work in, but if you do what stops you from getting one ?

Toothpaste

Fantmx wrote: »

Why I take this a little bit more personally isn't just the fact that Steven said in 2022, as the video points out, that anyone who put the effort in would get a freehold even though it would be a monumental achievement. It is that I specifically asked him in 2018 if I put in the work would I get to own a freehold and the answer was yes anyone that put in the work could. He again stated it would be a difficult achievement but ultimately yes we could. This question was also phrased as a single player experience.

So we had 5 years of being told anyone that put in the effort and work could obtain a freehold and then this year we are told it would only around 10% and likely the only way a casual time player could obtain one was through trying to make enough gold to buy one or possibly earn enough alternative currency but we would still be bidding against others with likely more time and money.

The answer Steven gives to both you and DYGZ sounds like getting a freehold solo will be an extremely hard and rare accomplishment. Solo players can't expect to be the first ones to own a freehold. You can still farm and process on your in-node housing. I'm sure that will be a much easier accomplishment for a solo player, especially one who only has 2 hours a day to play. And i think yall are taking the, "10%" comment too literally. Players/guilds will lose their freeholds as the game/player environment evolves. As Nodes tier-up more freeholds become available. It might take a solo player months to farm the gold/certificates/minor resources/lords quest. Steven didn't pull a fast one on yall, he gave a vague number and yall ran with it in the worse way.

Toothpaste

PherPhur wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

then this year we are told it would only around 10%

Steven shot himself in the foot by saying this. Cause it still stood that anyone who put in enough effort could own one. If all available ones are taken, you have to put together a successful siege. If you don't have enough gold to win a bid, you save up. Eventually you should be able to save up enough to win a bid.

Might take a couple years, but hey, he did say it would be a "monumental achievement", monumental is a big word and I don't think he was using it lightly.

agreed and agreed. Shot himself by giving a number for people to scrutinize. But HE did describe obtaining a freehold as a monumental task and he was not using that term lightly.

edit: the only thing indont agree with is taking years for a casual to own a freehold solo. Multiple multple months, but years (2+) is a little much

George_Black

You people missunderstood what "a lot of work means".
This is an owpvp mmo. A lot of work means keeping your enemies at bay while you reach for the prize.

It doesnt mean that you'd be in a safe bubble, with the prize waiting for you to put the work in at your leisure.

Owpvp is at the center of it all. That's what a lot of work means.

Noaani

Holy shit, a YouTuber with a subscriber count in the FOUR digits said a thing. That thing must be true!

To be fair, I would say the same thing about a YouTuber with a subscriber count with 10 digits - if the video was as much of a failure as that one was.

So, he says on one had that Steven said freeholds will only be limited by how much land is available (at a point in time where we had been told freeholds were half an acre), and then says that there was no other mention of limitations on freehold accesability. Now that we have very low relative limited numbers and limitations on freehold accessability, nothing has changed - he claims.

The guy that made that video should watch his own damn video. I personally feel stupider for watching it.

Dygz

Of course... Steven specifically stated that the auto-flag Purple (Corruption-free) FFA PvP on the OPen Seas is a pivotal change.
Also, the change from Meaningful Conflict to an obsession with Risk v Reward is also fairly kinda pivotal.

Dygz

GirlsFistinGuys wrote: »

The answer Steven gives to both you and DYGZ sounds like getting a freehold solo will be an extremely hard and rare accomplishment. Solo players can't expect to be the first ones to own a freehold. You can still farm and process on your in-node housing. I'm sure that will be a much easier accomplishment for a solo player, especially one who only has 2 hours a day to play. And i think yall are taking the, "10%" comment too literally. Players/guilds will lose their freeholds as the game/player environment evolves. As Nodes tier-up more freeholds become available. It might take a solo player months to farm the gold/certificates/minor resources/lords quest. Steven didn't pull a fast one on yall, he gave a vague number and yall ran with it in the worse way.

Fantm says another change is that originally players had to be a Citizen of a Node before acquiring a Freehold/plot and that is no longer the case.

Dygz

Quarantine wrote: »

I think many of us had made assumptions, and that has given us some big disappointments. For myself, I really was interested in getting into breeding. Since my playstyle simply can't keep up with the big boys, I'm just going to have to change my plans.

I don't know that you can call something an assumption when I ask Steven direct questions and he answers "No."
And then 4.5 years laters he announces, "Oh. We recently added a change. Now, the answer is yes."

Ayeveegaming1

Taken directly from the Ashes of Creation Kickstarter page under Risks and Challenges:
"We also may find that certain systems or mechanics that we're talking about today simply aren't fun or good for the health of the game. In those cases, be aware that the game may change in fundamental ways as we work through feedback, testing, and polish. The vision will always remain the same, but how we get there might not." https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1791529601/ashes-of-creation-new-mmorpg-by-intrepid-studios/description

DrDefault

The reality is that the freehold development has went from:
>Anyone that puts in time, effort and hard work can acquire a freehold
to
>Only the top 10% of the playerbase can have a freehold, regardless of how much effort you put into trying to get one.
They made freeholds an RNG based gamble, where you have to compete against large guilds, and looking at guild halls, it's quite obvious that the direction they're going for with freeholds is to be something more oriented towards guilds and no longer is it about time, effort, and hard work. It's about numbers, it's about who can recruit the most people and dominate that specific area in the game.

People that want to support this type of system clearly have never played hardcore pvp type games where these types of systems already exist. The problem is that Ashes isn't a hardcore pvp game, that's why this type of system will be exploited exponentially by large guilds.

If people seem to think that a guild of maybe 100~300 active members is considered large, then that's an understatement of assumptions. A lot of large guilds have sister guilds that they're allied with, they recruit so much that they easily replace those that leave. So, you're looking at guilds with roughly 700~1000 active players or more.
You can look at Eves current alliances and see that the top three have over 30k members each. So, it's very possible for such large alliances to simply take control of the entire map, and control the economy. Making progression half for those that choose not to be involved in those large guilds.

So, the reality is that you can say the game hasn't pivoted due to Stevens vague words; however, I doubt many people were thinking that Ashes was going to end up becoming an mmo that caters to extremely massive guilds.

Dygz

Ravicus wrote: »

Taken directly from the Ashes of Creation Kickstarter page under Risks and Challenges:
"We also may find that certain systems or mechanics that we're talking about today simply aren't fun or good for the health of the game. In those cases, be aware that the game may change in fundamental ways as we work through feedback, testing, and polish. The vision will always remain the same, but how we get there might not." https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1791529601/ashes-of-creation-new-mmorpg-by-intrepid-studios/description

So.... There have been fundamental changes or there haven't been fundamental changes?

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