Combat and Class feedback

With the direction of the classes starting to take shape, I think there is a level of importance to see how the class kits are going to act across this hybrid system.

Tab abilities and action abilities are coded and calculate differently across 3d space. While it is nice to see what the mostly tab portion of the game is going to look like, I have a hard time seeing the vision for the action portion. It seems like the action portion of what is supposed to look like either doesn't exist or may become secondary.

If anyone has ever played GW2 they would know that its tab game with a reticle toggle added later to mimic the “feel” of action combat. It’s still tab with the illusion of a hybrid system.

If I were to take the Cleric showcase now and do a side by side comparison to action games such as TERA, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Conq Blade, Valheim and look at the abilities and see if they behave and interact in the same way I can easily say those abilities don’t really behave nor are they coded the same way as the abilities in the titles I’ve listed.

It would be really grand to see the comparisons and the breakdowns in a livestream to see how one ability changes in the hybrid system. The real guts, gears, and ratios of the abilities, the calculations and science behind it would make for a really cool livestream.

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Comments

Meztopheles

Yeah, so far the hybrid combat is looking pretty pureblooded tab target. It sucks too that the only action skills (aside from basic attacks) seem to be ground target abilities which suck on controllers (not sure if playing on a controller will even be remotely possible but I hope it will for the sake of people I know in real life).

Edit: I was wrong on the bold point. There are cone abilities and such. That's the kind of stuff I want to see more of.

GW2 is still one of my favorite MMO's for combat, but the action portion of its hybrid system is about as substantial as a Mesmer clone, and AoC, so far, looks the same. I really liked TERA's combat too, but it was the literal only good thing about that game.

- Irrelevant side note: Mesmer is my favorite class of any game and I hope one of the classes in AoC will play like it.

iccer

I genuinely don't know how did people think they would create both a tab targeting and action combat game at the same time. For everyone disappointed that it's not an action combat game, I seriously don't know what to say, as the game has been never marketed as such, and nothing gave me an impression it would be an action combat game.

What really is, is tab-target at it's core, but with more emphasis on targeted abilities, skillshots, and the free aiming mode, which will allow you to just point at stuff you want to damage or heal, rather than pressing tab and cycling between targets.

With that being said, I do agree we need to see more of how "action" camera will work, especially with healers. I am interested to see how they will manage targeting allies in the action camera mode, especially with abilities that can be cast both on enemies and allies. It could be that it's not really ready yet, and that it doesn't work.

Ludullu

I'm gonna go try playing tera on a private server, cause I still, for the life of me, cannot understand what's so different between just aiming a reticle in a tab game and playing an "action" game. I played bdo and NW, but I didn't see any difference really.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

I'm gonna go try playing tera on a private server, cause I still, for the life of me, cannot understand what's so different between just aiming a reticle in a tab game and playing an "action" game. I played bdo and NW, but I didn't see any difference really.

I feel like you weren't around for the bigger discussions but overall it's not that those things are different.

It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some.

We're probably past the point of coding where it matters to the thing you said.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some.

This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is?

Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid.

Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release).

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some.

This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is?

Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid.

Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release).

Not my place to say because I don't know what Solvryn is talking about. This is not to say 'Solvryn is just talking random shit', I don't know their development/study experience.

Projectile velocity and raycasts are the main things that matter, but in UE5 I would expect a tab target projectile to work the same as it has in L2 or older games like that where it just corrects its vector on every 'tick' with a reverse 'raycast' from the tab target instead of needing to check 'what else it could have hit' for sanity.

That's one meaningful difference between them. An aimed reticle ability that is not 'reverse raycast' at the point of you launching the attack misses more when you are out of sync and would only have clipped the edge of the target, but that's just changing the curvature constraint on the projectile.

So it's like... the best way to explain it would be that This is kinda a 'toggle' or should be in most modern games. This is why I still expect TL to be mostly an Action game now that Amazon has demanded they fix it. They're tweaking a variable and MAYBE a calculation path. You can literally 'turn Action Combat on and off' depending on how you built it (I have no idea how Ashes built it) these days.

If you want to get the real feeling go buy Predecessor instead assuming you even can from where you live. I THINK you can still get it on Steam. SMITE is not quite as helpful but should also work.

Either way, it's not really something a less technical person will notice or understand in general even with the explanation. You can just trust that Solvryn does understand this and there's a specific thing being looked for that you'd have to be taught how to look for.

Depraved

tera was the most fun ive had playing as a tank ;3 i kind of miss that game ngl. i just didnt like the progressions system, but the combat was great

Depraved

damn i didnt even know there were tera private servers. would be cool to form a group and play a lil bit every day to pass the time

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

If you want to get the real feeling go buy Predecessor instead assuming you even can from where you live. I THINK you can still get it on Steam.

If I ever have the money, I'll try it out

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you want to get the real feeling go buy Predecessor instead assuming you even can from where you live. I THINK you can still get it on Steam.

If I ever have the money, I'll try it out

Remind me, you're the one who doesn't accept gifted things on Steam, right?

Cause I'd just have someone send it...

I'd consider it an investment in Ashes if the person I count on for PvP incentive/flow feedback has that game to play.

Depraved

send it to me ill play with you. i like mobas ;3 currently playing pokemon unite

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Remind me, you're the one who doesn't accept gifted things on Steam, right?

Yeah, that's me

Plus steam doesn't allow gifts across currencies with different values (at least afaik).

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

send it to me ill play with you. i like mobas ;3 currently playing pokemon unite

I feel like you missed the point of the offer...

Neither I nor the person who sent the game gift would ever intend or expect to play with NiKr unless requested. For all I know the offer alone is 'uncomfortable'.

If you love MOBAs I'm sure you already know what OP is talking about.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some.

This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is?

Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid.

Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release).

It's hard to have this conversation at a level where everyone can participate and understand.

Tab is the absence of aiming and requires different calculations.

The shapes Clerics use, do not require aiming. They require positing, orientation, or placement - but not aiming.

I'm interested in the behavior of an object (a variable with art attached to it) moving across 3d space, especially how it'll behave from a tab system and an aimed system.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

send it to me ill play with you. i like mobas ;3 currently playing pokemon unite

I feel like you missed the point of the offer...

Neither I nor the person who sent the game gift would ever intend or expect to play with NiKr unless requested. For all I know the offer alone is 'uncomfortable'.

If you love MOBAs I'm sure you already know what OP is talking about.

i was joking...i would have declined to receive a game as a gift T_T

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Remind me, you're the one who doesn't accept gifted things on Steam, right?

Yeah, that's me Plus steam doesn't allow gifts across currencies with different values (at least afaik).

Yeah but in general you should assume I can do anything I want anywhere in the world when it comes to tech things in this because reasons.

Yes, legal reasons.

Depraved

Solvryn wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some.

This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is?

Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid.

Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release).

It's hard to have this conversation at a level where everyone can participate and understand.

Tab is the absence of aiming and requires different calculations.

The shapes Clerics use, do not require aiming. They require positing, orientation, or placement - but not aiming.

I'm interested in the behavior of an object (a variable with art attached to it) moving across 3d space, especially how it'll behave from a tab system and an aimed system.

well, the ground targetted aoe and the cone that requires positioning and orientation are elements of action combat. i know what you mean though, you could just look at the ground and still hit your target, but you can do a lot of this in pure action combat games...purely aiming is more of a shooter thing...

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

It's hard to have this conversation at a level where everyone can participate and understand.

Tab is the absence of aiming and requires different calculations.

The shapes Clerics use, do not require aiming. They require positing, orientation, or placement - but not aiming.

I'm interested in the behavior of an object (a variable with art attached to it) moving across 3d space, especially how it'll behave from a tab system and an aimed system.

Ok, so it is just about direct aiming rather than the "actioness" of abilities. Got it.

I feel like this is just another example of semantic discussions and the lack of concrete definitions for the bigger mmo community. To me, "action" always meant "doesn't require a target to cast". But from all the discussions I've seen, for A LOT of people it's usually "I want to shoot a "gun" in an mmo".

Depraved

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

It's hard to have this conversation at a level where everyone can participate and understand.

Tab is the absence of aiming and requires different calculations.

The shapes Clerics use, do not require aiming. They require positing, orientation, or placement - but not aiming.

I'm interested in the behavior of an object (a variable with art attached to it) moving across 3d space, especially how it'll behave from a tab system and an aimed system.

Ok, so it is just about direct aiming rather than the "actioness" of abilities. Got it.

I feel like this is just another example of semantic discussions and the lack of concrete definitions for the bigger mmo community. To me, "action" always meant "doesn't require a target to cast". But from all the discussions I've seen, for A LOT of people it's usually "I want to shoot a "gun" in an mmo".

its a mix of both

Solvryn

Depraved wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some.

This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is?

Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid.

Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release).

It's hard to have this conversation at a level where everyone can participate and understand.

Tab is the absence of aiming and requires different calculations.

The shapes Clerics use, do not require aiming. They require positing, orientation, or placement - but not aiming.

I'm interested in the behavior of an object (a variable with art attached to it) moving across 3d space, especially how it'll behave from a tab system and an aimed system.

well, the ground targetted aoe and the cone that requires positioning and orientation are elements of action combat. i know what you mean though, you could just look at the ground and still hit your target, but you can do a lot of this in pure action combat games...purely aiming is more of a shooter thing...

Asymmetrical games, tab, and action require positioning, orientation, and placement and the first two required them way before action ever game to be.

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