Excessive advantage of a large purposeful guild

A larger guild with 300 people will have 20-50 miners and 1-2 processors and will receive the metal for free. I, who am in a smaller guild and buy the metal to process it, will I compete?I'm 20-50 times behind.The small guild gets a bonus.It's not hard to get around.I would put a weekly or monthly limit on how much you could improve in a profession.Avoid some problems with this.who would cut the tree for 8 hours a day just to grow.Exploiting markets when someone will produce 100 axes just to quickly improve their skills.and 1 smaller character should also have a chance to bring in the backlog.

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Vyril

I recommend reading the wiki on guilds.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guilds

There are many +/- on varying guild sizes, and to a decent extent large guilds are important to Ashes.

Spinspirit

xmix wrote: »

will I compete?

No i guess, if you want to compete you could join a large guild. A large guild with many members and big investment should be able to gain advantages over smaller guilds/solo players otherwise it would be completely pointless.

Azherae

xmix wrote: »

A larger guild with 300 people will have 20-50 miners and 1-2 processors and will receive the metal for free. I, who am in a smaller guild and buy the metal to process it, will I compete?I'm 20-50 times behind.The small guild gets a bonus.It's not hard to get around.I would put a weekly or monthly limit on how much you could improve in a profession.Avoid some problems with this.who would cut the tree for 8 hours a day just to grow.Exploiting markets when someone will produce 100 axes just to quickly improve their skills.and 1 smaller character should also have a chance to bring in the backlog.

The solution to this is to limit the economic flow such that it doesn't make as much sense for there to be 50 miners, via the game's main design.

If you have enough materials that 50 miners in one guild of 300 is worth having and those miners are not operating at a loss in opportunity cost of any kind, the game is already broken.

20ish is probably okay, but the world is supposed to be huge.

Also, econ wise, this shouldn't really work for a very very long list of other reasons. Trust Intrepid. Note that I'm talking only about your very specific presented scenario of 'being behind because you need to purchase the metal', not any other advantages of numbers or organized larger guilds.

xmix

Azherae wrote: »

xmix wrote: »

A larger guild with 300 people will have 20-50 miners and 1-2 processors and will receive the metal for free. I, who am in a smaller guild and buy the metal to process it, will I compete?I'm 20-50 times behind.The small guild gets a bonus.It's not hard to get around.I would put a weekly or monthly limit on how much you could improve in a profession.Avoid some problems with this.who would cut the tree for 8 hours a day just to grow.Exploiting markets when someone will produce 100 axes just to quickly improve their skills.and 1 smaller character should also have a chance to bring in the backlog.

The solution to this is to limit the economic flow such that it doesn't make as much sense for there to be 50 miners, via the game's main design.

If you have enough materials that 50 miners in one guild of 300 is worth having and those miners are not operating at a loss in opportunity cost of any kind, the game is already broken.

20ish is probably okay, but the world is supposed to be huge.

Also, econ wise, this shouldn't really work for a very very long list of other reasons. Trust Intrepid. Note that I'm talking only about your very specific presented scenario of 'being behind because you need to purchase the metal', not any other advantages of numbers or organized larger guilds.

I have heard several times that the smaller ones will be able to compete with the bigger ones, but I don't see how this will come true.

Azherae

xmix wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

xmix wrote: »

A larger guild with 300 people will have 20-50 miners and 1-2 processors and will receive the metal for free. I, who am in a smaller guild and buy the metal to process it, will I compete?I'm 20-50 times behind.The small guild gets a bonus.It's not hard to get around.I would put a weekly or monthly limit on how much you could improve in a profession.Avoid some problems with this.who would cut the tree for 8 hours a day just to grow.Exploiting markets when someone will produce 100 axes just to quickly improve their skills.and 1 smaller character should also have a chance to bring in the backlog.

The solution to this is to limit the economic flow such that it doesn't make as much sense for there to be 50 miners, via the game's main design.

If you have enough materials that 50 miners in one guild of 300 is worth having and those miners are not operating at a loss in opportunity cost of any kind, the game is already broken.

20ish is probably okay, but the world is supposed to be huge.

Also, econ wise, this shouldn't really work for a very very long list of other reasons. Trust Intrepid. Note that I'm talking only about your very specific presented scenario of 'being behind because you need to purchase the metal', not any other advantages of numbers or organized larger guilds.

I have heard several times that the smaller ones will be able to compete with the bigger ones, but I don't see how this will come true.

Trust their Economy designers.

It's hard, yes, but it's not insurmountable.

Again, I'm only talking about the situation you presented specifically. You want to Process metal, they want to process metal, you don't want them to get massively ahead of you.

For other points of 'competition', you'd have to wait for other people who specialize in thinking about things like PvP zergs, raiding, sailing, etc.

I'm just the overly chatty Econ person.

xmix

Spinspirit wrote: »

xmix wrote: »

will I compete?

No i guess, if you want to compete you could join a large guild. A large guild with many members and big investment should be able to gain advantages over smaller guilds/solo players otherwise it would be completely pointless.

I like to achieve things by myself. Build 1 business for myself. Rather than being 1 cog in the assembly plant of 1 large guild. but if they move 20x faster then it should be considered. But I don't want to.You don't produce things for sale, you only produce them to equip the guild.

Mag7spy

Its unrealistic to think there isn't an advantage to being with more people, and unrealistic on a pvp level that you are going to beat larger guilds with less number. They will have more people to cover more land, and more people willing to work together and share.

I don't understand why yo can't be competitive with guilds of similar size and need to think you need to be able to beat larger guilds. If it comes to competitive pvp like sieges / arena pvp that will be balanced based on numbers set with their rule sets.

You don't want to join a larger guild and be a cog tot heir rule set? Why do you not find a guild to join that matches your desires and expectations, why can no one communicate with people int his day and age to find the right one or join with another one to become a slightly larger guild????

As far as with the crafting with what you need to have made for you, processed etc. I don't think that will be a big deal if you are a small guild and organized. Make what you need and gather what you need. Large guilds need more mats to share between their members since they are working together. As a smaller guild you don't need to be as charitable and can just have things for yourselves not needing to share with as many people lol.

Though i do find it interesting you want to "produce" things or have power equal to what a large guild can do, so you can sell it for your own money o.O. You got a large guild working together int theory and you are here wanting just profit. So you must see the draw backs of being in a large guild so is it about having the power and ability to make profit without draw back again...

BeOwningU

Even if you limited resources the same guild wouldnt have 48 miners sitting around. They would convert them to processors, or even just have them grind gold, levels, or whatever else was needed to be efficient.

Either way you slice it solo players will never be "competition" in mmos because it's always more efficient to do things with guildies and friends.

Azherae

BeOwningU wrote: »

Even if you limited resources the same guild wouldnt have 48 miners sitting around. They would convert them to processors, or even just have them grind gold, levels, or whatever else was needed to be efficient.

Either way you slice it solo players will never be "competition" in mmos because it's always more efficient to do things with guildies and friends.

Hm, no, I stand corrected, you're right.

If a player's goal is to be primarily a businessperson and they have no guild/no large network of people who support their business, I don't think any economic model actually works for that player in most games, far less Ashes.

So I made too many assumptions about what @xmix was saying when I answered, sorry.

Ludullu

If there's, say, 20 locations where metal can be farmed at the same time (to warrant having 20 miners) - that means that the big guilds is spread across the entire server instead of being concentrated in one place. This means that it's easier to contest any given spot, because there's only one group there instead of the entire 300 guild.

Your small guild needs x40 metal, while that huge guild needs x300. Your guild can afford sending 2-3 groups to protect your metal mining, because that means that they'll get their metal asap. The huge guild with their 20 miners can lose one farming location and still be fine, because 5% is not 100%.

And this can be applied to every mining location, if each of them have a small guild going after it. This is how small guilds can fight against big ones. Intrepid just need to design their gatherables distribution correctly.

But yes, as BOU said, solo players won't be able to do much against guilded ones. But OP mentioned a small guild, which would, in theory, help him mine metal.

Percimes

Good thing you're all talking about miners, if you'd used lumberjacks the ecology management comity would've been quite vocal about the damage you were wrecking to the node.

Ah. You had forgotten this mechanic. I see...

xmix

Mag7spy wrote: »

Its unrealistic to think there isn't an advantage to being with more people, and unrealistic on a pvp level that you are going to beat larger guilds with less number. They will have more people to cover more land, and more people willing to work together and share.

I don't understand why yo can't be competitive with guilds of similar size and need to think you need to be able to beat larger guilds. If it comes to competitive pvp like sieges / arena pvp that will be balanced based on numbers set with their rule sets.

You don't want to join a larger guild and be a cog tot heir rule set? Why do you not find a guild to join that matches your desires and expectations, why can no one communicate with people int his day and age to find the right one or join with another one to become a slightly larger guild????

As far as with the crafting with what you need to have made for you, processed etc. I don't think that will be a big deal if you are a small guild and organized. Make what you need and gather what you need. Large guilds need more mats to share between their members since they are working together. As a smaller guild you don't need to be as charitable and can just have things for yourselves not needing to share with as many people lol.

Though i do find it interesting you want to "produce" things or have power equal to what a large guild can do, so you can sell it for your own money o.O. You got a large guild working together int theory and you are here wanting just profit. So you must see the draw backs of being in a large guild so is it about having the power and ability to make profit without draw back again...

I'm thinking of a small guild. I don't have good experience with guilds, especially the bigger ones.The problem here is with the processing. 30 people hammer the metal for him, which takes 2 months for you and 2 days for him.ha ezen nem változtatnak akor nézek magamnak olyan szakmát aminek van értelme.Akkor maradnak ezek a gyüjtögető szakmák a kicsiknek meg még pár szakma.Amikbe nem tud besegíteni 1 másik személy bányászás favágás.

Mag7spy

xmix wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Its unrealistic to think there isn't an advantage to being with more people, and unrealistic on a pvp level that you are going to beat larger guilds with less number. They will have more people to cover more land, and more people willing to work together and share.

I don't understand why yo can't be competitive with guilds of similar size and need to think you need to be able to beat larger guilds. If it comes to competitive pvp like sieges / arena pvp that will be balanced based on numbers set with their rule sets.

You don't want to join a larger guild and be a cog tot heir rule set? Why do you not find a guild to join that matches your desires and expectations, why can no one communicate with people int his day and age to find the right one or join with another one to become a slightly larger guild????

As far as with the crafting with what you need to have made for you, processed etc. I don't think that will be a big deal if you are a small guild and organized. Make what you need and gather what you need. Large guilds need more mats to share between their members since they are working together. As a smaller guild you don't need to be as charitable and can just have things for yourselves not needing to share with as many people lol.

Though i do find it interesting you want to "produce" things or have power equal to what a large guild can do, so you can sell it for your own money o.O. You got a large guild working together int theory and you are here wanting just profit. So you must see the draw backs of being in a large guild so is it about having the power and ability to make profit without draw back again...

I'm thinking of a small guild. I don't have good experience with guilds, especially the bigger ones.The problem here is with the processing. 30 people hammer the metal for him, which takes 2 months for you and 2 days for him.ha ezen nem változtatnak akor nézek magamnak olyan szakmát aminek van értelme.Akkor maradnak ezek a gyüjtögető szakmák a kicsiknek meg még pár szakma.Amikbe nem tud besegíteni 1 másik személy bányászás favágás.

Why would processing take you two months? I expect some time sinks, but you getting the mats you need based on your people, etc should be able to process things in a reasonable time. I don't see any issues tbh.

If we are talking about extremely rare mats that need to be processed, no one should have them in large qualities so it won't be a time thing but a more so money / being able to obtain them thing.

I feel this is a case of creating a issue that doesn't exist atm.

Depraved

xmix wrote: »

Spinspirit wrote: »

xmix wrote: »

will I compete?

No i guess, if you want to compete you could join a large guild. A large guild with many members and big investment should be able to gain advantages over smaller guilds/solo players otherwise it would be completely pointless.

I like to achieve things by myself. Build 1 business for myself. Rather than being 1 cog in the assembly plant of 1 large guild. but if they move 20x faster then it should be considered. But I don't want to.You don't produce things for sale, you only produce them to equip the guild.

so you want one thing and you want to do that alone, so instead of accepting that people who work together will get ahead, you want the entire world to change and adapt to you instead of you adapting. ok

Fantmx

Are you going to purposefully be in the same region as a large guild?

drclawx

How many people will work for "free" though?

Eventually it causes tension if are just feeding the top 20 guild members and getting little in return.

I do have concerns though if you are just average joe crafter that just wants to have fun and not be some sweat lord super efficient player.

Mag7spy

drclawx wrote: »

How many people will work for "free" though?

Eventually it causes tension if are just feeding the top 20 guild members and getting little in return.

I do have concerns though if you are just average joe crafter that just wants to have fun and not be some sweat lord super efficient player.

Guild doesn't work for free, that is the thing some of these solo /small group players think. It just comes down to not wanting to give things to anyone for them. While you give things to guild guild since you are all working towards a common goal and the benefits are generally shared.

Also you can look for a guild that doesn't require you to give anything...

Depraved

drclawx wrote: »

How many people will work for "free" though?

Eventually it causes tension if are just feeding the top 20 guild members and getting little in return.

I do have concerns though if you are just average joe crafter that just wants to have fun and not be some sweat lord super efficient player.

well, you are getting mats for free and leveling your profession, which means you can make things others cant and make money...and the person giving you the mats is getting a finished product. its a win win.

Veeshan

depends how they do guild and skill trees tbh lets say battalions are 25 members each guild can have 1 betallion at level one.
When they level up they can choose to increase betalion count by 1 (so now 50 size) or they can give a bonus to 1 betallion say 25% gathering yield or pvp related combat ones like 20% dmg reduction from players, or node progression +25% Patron so smaller guild can compete with larger ones for guild halls (or what ever the thing was that determined who got patronage for guild halls)
you might get 10 of these upgrades so you can get 250 players or you can stack 10 different buffs on 25 players or takes 3 betalions with 7 buffs spread out on them.

drclawx

Mag7spy wrote: »

drclawx wrote: »

How many people will work for "free" though?

Eventually it causes tension if are just feeding the top 20 guild members and getting little in return.

I do have concerns though if you are just average joe crafter that just wants to have fun and not be some sweat lord super efficient player.

Guild doesn't work for free, that is the thing some of these solo /small group players think. It just comes down to not wanting to give things to anyone for them. While you give things to guild guild since you are all working towards a common goal and the benefits are generally shared.

Also you can look for a guild that doesn't require you to give anything...

Mostly responding to the OP that is worried about 50 people feeding someone for free.
Other games don't really have consequences for being greedy. Big zergs may chase people away form the areas they operate and loose node population weakening their overall strength.

Depraved wrote: »

drclawx wrote: »

How many people will work for "free" though?

Eventually it causes tension if are just feeding the top 20 guild members and getting little in return.

I do have concerns though if you are just average joe crafter that just wants to have fun and not be some sweat lord super efficient player.

well, you are getting mats for free and leveling your profession, which means you can make things others cant and make money...and the person giving you the mats is getting a finished product. its a win win.

Small groups can do this too not just large ones. I guess if you just start playing without a group it would suck. It's pretty hard to find reliable people to play with.

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