Noaani wrote: » Knevah wrote: » BUT.... this is not e-sports... No, but it is going to be VERY competitive. "Competitive" generally means something different in an MMO... it's not moment to moment with players shooting at each other, it's things like realm firsts for specific dungeons, and open world events etc... Wall glitches are indeed an issue that would be exasperated on Linux, I disagree... graphics is more or less 100% handed over to Vulkan/DirectX and reliability of these drivers is extremely good... plus, some random "glitch" is much more likely to be harmful, not helpful... If you are referring to deliberately doing that, with some software to let you see through walls etc... I've seen that implemented on Windows despite EAC, so Linux is moot one way or the other... EAC is just stopping the bulk of script kiddies downloading hacked clients without really knowing how it works... creating those things is genuinely hard work that someone is not going to do unless they can get a return on that by selling it... and (as you pointed out above), the market on Windows is so much larger that it's always going to be the target for this kind of thing. you can do a lot in an MMO if you can intercept the data being sent from your client to the server Well, I can do that on another machine, sitting next to my gaming system... perhaps a Raspberry Pi... Yes, there's going to be encryption, but since we're talking about hypothetical hacks here, a man in the middle attack on the client to server encryption is probably easier than circumventing the client such that you can grab the data before it's encrypted... even if there is no EAC that would likely still be true. The thing is, regardless of the specifics, you know allowing Linux compatibility will increase the amount of cheating in the game. You are now asking for a trade off in allowing that 1.6% of people to play (it is actually lower than that, as u said, most of those people also have a windows computer, or are duel booting, almost no one on Steam is Linux only) in exchange for an increase in cheating. I think given the above, any increase in cheating is going to be imperceptibly small since it isn't individuals creating cheats, it's a small number of people who are dedicated, and likely able to monetize that activity by providing those compromised clients... and they are going to develop that for Windows because that's where the largest market is. I would also say that on steam if an account (or game) is used on Windows more, it's counted as a Windows user... so that 1.6%... if we're talking about people who have both Windows and Linux is only those people who use Linux more... so steam deck owners who might play on a Windows desktop 60% of the time are not counted as Linux users... so actually, the number is just as likely to be more in reality as only players who are using Linux the majority of the time are counted. As such, at the very least, you should understand why people are generally against it, and will be against it in almost any competitive game. If you purchased a Steam Deck in order to play competitive games, that just seems like a poor decision on your part. I think people are generally against it because they don't fully understand it, and there is a LOT of FUD around it... the issues you raise, while they are in some cases theoretically real at some level, are also for the most part unlikely, or at least a very small issue in a larger arena... perhaps you increase cheating overall by 0.016%... (if 1% of all Linux users are cheating)... but you also have to remember that Linux users are also less likely to be compromised by malware, so they are less likely to be creating issues with character or account theft, etc... they're also less likely to be gold farmers, because why would some low rent gold farming operation go to the trouble... etc etc... Also, I personally don't expect to play Ashes on a Steam Deck... and probably most people asking about the Steam Deck don't either... they are referring to that device as it is a well known, standardized Linux platform that could actually be "supported" relatively easily... and of course, if something runs on a Steam Deck, then it's going to run on other Linux systems also...
Knevah wrote: » BUT.... this is not e-sports...
No, but it is going to be VERY competitive.
Wall glitches are indeed an issue that would be exasperated on Linux,
you can do a lot in an MMO if you can intercept the data being sent from your client to the server
The thing is, regardless of the specifics, you know allowing Linux compatibility will increase the amount of cheating in the game. You are now asking for a trade off in allowing that 1.6% of people to play (it is actually lower than that, as u said, most of those people also have a windows computer, or are duel booting, almost no one on Steam is Linux only) in exchange for an increase in cheating.
As such, at the very least, you should understand why people are generally against it, and will be against it in almost any competitive game. If you purchased a Steam Deck in order to play competitive games, that just seems like a poor decision on your part.
Knevah wrote: » Depraved wrote: » what are the issues then? The issues I believe are most significant for MMO's are:- * Farming bots -> Trading bots (depending on the design of the game) * Account / Character trading * Item trading * In game currency selling * Character leveling services * Credential theft (Phishing / Malware) * Multi-boxing (Depending on what's permiited) * "Gold" farming (or whatever the in-game currency is) -> specifically to support in game currency trading for real money. * DDoS attacks against the game servers/infrastructure * Exploits of bugs/glitches in the software -> Some harmless like falling under Stormwind, or the hidden area in Ironforge in Wow, but others might include item duplication, infinite in-game money etc... Primary use of "Anti-Cheat" software * Speed Hacks -> doesn't really apply if the server software is properly written, at least it should be trivial to detect. * Aimbots * Wall hacks Those last two are /critical/ for e-sports but don't apply much to MMO's since probably manual aiming isn't a thing... and wall hacks in an MMO scenario seem like something that would just not be worth it... That's 13 issues, only 2 of them would be addressed by "Anti-Cheat" software such as what we are discussing, rather than what would more easily be implemented at the server side, and/or by good GM's and policing by other players.... and those two mostly are not an issue for an MMO.... or are a very minor issue compared to what they would be in an e-sport title.
Depraved wrote: » what are the issues then?
Depraved wrote: » what i mean is, what kind of cheating can you do on linux that you cant do on windows and could also be, but not necessarily, undetectable
Knevah wrote: » It worries me that this thread nearly got a bit toxic, but I think it's a valuable discussion... My position however, is that I think participants here are perhaps a few years out of date with regard to the situation with Linux and Linux users...
Botagar wrote: » Knevah wrote: » It worries me that this thread nearly got a bit toxic, but I think it's a valuable discussion... My position however, is that I think participants here are perhaps a few years out of date with regard to the situation with Linux and Linux users... .... there are certain Hard Headed individuals who have based their world view of linux
Depraved wrote: » i think the wiki has the answer he is looking for
Knevah wrote: » "Competitive" generally means something different in an MMO... it's not moment to moment with players shooting at each other, it's things like realm firsts for specific dungeons, and open world events etc...
Well, I can do that on another machine, sitting next to my gaming system... perhaps a Raspberry Pi... Yes, there's going to be encryption, but since
perhaps you increase cheating overall by 0.016%... (if 1% of all Linux users are cheating)...
Noaani wrote: » Knevah wrote: » "Competitive" generally means something different in an MMO... it's not moment to moment with players shooting at each other, it's things like realm firsts for specific dungeons, and open world events etc... Oh, so you're saying it's OK to cheat in Ashes? Well, I can do that on another machine, sitting next to my gaming system... perhaps a Raspberry Pi... Yes, there's going to be encryption, but since Now you seem to be saying that si ce some other much more involved cheating methods will be available, Intrepid shouldn't eliminate the easier to eliminate methods. I hate it how some people think a single action needs to deal with the problem entirely or else it isnt worth doing. perhaps you increase cheating overall by 0.016%... (if 1% of all Linux users are cheating)... And now you are saying that only people already using Linux would use it to cheat. It's as if you have forgotten that anyone wanting to cheat can simply duel boot their system.
Noaani wrote: » Oh, so you're saying it's OK to cheat in Ashes?
I hate it how some people think a single action needs to deal with the problem entirely or else it isnt worth doing.
And now you are saying that only people already using Linux would use it to cheat. It's as if you have forgotten that anyone wanting to cheat can simply duel boot their system.
Knevah wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i think the wiki has the answer he is looking for How arrogant is that?... did you even read the very specific questions I asked, to clarify what the Wiki actually says.... which is virtually nothing by the way. The Wiki says, two things * "Native support may be possible in future"... well, native support would require a lot of development effort from Intrepid, and the Linux users don't actually want that. * "We'll have to evaluate how much work it will be at some point in the future". What I'm suggesting is that there's likely more people working on Proton than in the whole of Intrepid, and they're motivated to get as close to 100% of the new releases working, ideally on day one.... and they don't require any investment of time from Intrepid, they just need some clarification regarding if Intrepid will actively try to stop them... I think the entire discussion around EAC above is moot, since there's nothing to say that it'll even be used as the Wiki just states that there is extensive work to stop any cheating... which could all be server side for all we know. So, if Intrepid confirm that they aren't going to be banning Wine developers... then we do our thing, Intrepid does theirs and things either work out of not... if they /are/ going to be doing that kind of thing... then half of those guys will use dummy accounts and VPN's and the other half won't touch it... and I'll lash together my own solution.... but that doesn't feel like productive co-operation. Also, why am I asking these questions on the forum, and not discord?... well, I asked on Discord and someone said "This is too complex for Discord, ask on the forum"... so here I am.... go figure. You really should read the first half dozen comments on this thread, it might help you understand...https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/17h1i7n/linux_vs_windows_tested_in_10_games_linux_17/ TL;DR, if you buy the right hardware, then Linux is better at running Windows games than Windows... both performance and stability... and that's a statement I wasn't expecting to be able to ever make.
Knevah wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Knevah wrote: » "Competitive" generally means something different in an MMO... it's not moment to moment with players shooting at each other, it's things like realm firsts for specific dungeons, and open world events etc... Oh, so you're saying it's OK to cheat in Ashes? Well, I can do that on another machine, sitting next to my gaming system... perhaps a Raspberry Pi... Yes, there's going to be encryption, but since Now you seem to be saying that si ce some other much more involved cheating methods will be available, Intrepid shouldn't eliminate the easier to eliminate methods. I hate it how some people think a single action needs to deal with the problem entirely or else it isnt worth doing. perhaps you increase cheating overall by 0.016%... (if 1% of all Linux users are cheating)... And now you are saying that only people already using Linux would use it to cheat. It's as if you have forgotten that anyone wanting to cheat can simply duel boot their system. Baaa, this is just FUD IMO... come back when you have an example of this actually happening... every example I've seen of this kind of thing happening, it was done on Windows. It might in theory have a different attack surface, but in the current climate, this kind of thing is done to monetize it, and so it's going to target the platform that lets them market it...
Knevah wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Oh, so you're saying it's OK to cheat in Ashes? Of course not, but this discussion is moot... as EAC is really only there to catch the low hanging fruit, which it will do regardless of platform if its going to be leveraged, which hasn't even been confirmed... and then there's a lot of stuff on the server side, and custom stuff in the client. I hate it how some people think a single action needs to deal with the problem entirely or else it isnt worth doing. Sure, defense in depth is a thing... but given zero information about what's actually going on, I'm going to assume that we can get it running.... which hence my request for clarification of the "no real information" that's on the Wiki, particularly regarding how Intrepid will view us working on that.... because clearly they are saying that a) they don't have the time to invest in a native client, and b) they would like to have support but they need to work out how much developer time it would take. Yet the Linux users don't want (a), and given that Proton likely has more developers than Intrepid, in an ideal world (b) doesn't require any developer time from Intrepid, since for the vast majority of the work, can (and should) be on the Proton side. And now you are saying that only people already using Linux would use it to cheat. It's as if you have forgotten that anyone wanting to cheat can simply duel boot their system. Actually, I'm saying that the return on investment for creating some kind of exploit vastly favours Windows ... and this is born out by what you see available in the marketplace, I've seen MANY exploits for e-sports games, even ones with EAC, and they are all running on Windows. You're also implying that the potential differences in the EAC client on Linux will make it "easy", which is certainly not the case... especially given the implication that Intrepid are doing a lot to manage any kind of problem... likely a lot server side too... and, given that they have experienced people from Blizzard (and CCP I believe?)... among others, which both have large communities of players on Linux, I'm sure they know that it's not been an issue for those services.
Depraved wrote: » it means that they will add native support, not emulator support. its clear to me T_T
the people who do it dont advertise themselves doing it. they do it secretly lol
Depraved wrote: » they run on windows because most people play on windows. thats why there are more viruses for windows too. linux and mac can still catch a virus..you just need ot make it lol. the people who makes things like that focus on windows because thats where most users are. also, really, who would rather play on an emulator over natively? T_T
Knevah wrote: » Anyway, I'm done answering this thread... it's clearly not going help me, and at this point it's just going round in circles for no obvious reason.
Knevah wrote: » Baaa, this is just FUD IMO... come back when you have an example of this actually happening... every example I've seen of this kind of thing happening, it was done on Windows. It might in theory have a different attack surface, but in the current climate, this kind of thing is done to monetize it, and so it's going to target the platform that lets them market it...
