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Comments
Good idea. Desert caravans might be the best protected on route. Can see for miles and no choke points in sight except for sand dunes etc.
Imagine this scenario: everyone was in coms, which is why the caravaning was a success. I'm curious about how it will go when random people join in. Will they grasp the stagecoach's plan, how they will know where the stage coach is heading to, or will they simply wander off to pick rare flowers and never return? The players who are running around the caravan have nothing on the line or do they? This will be more complicated with naval caravans when they transition through land and water.
What happens when there are multiple caravans from various groups like guilds, alliances, allies, etc., with 20 caravans passing through? Do I need to individually select each one, or is there an option to auto-sign as a defender for guilds, alliances, allies, and similarly as an attacker for war targets? Can I even sign up as a defender for war targets?
The caravan system seems to be heading in a positive direction, sparking people's interest in its PvP elements.
The caravan system is going places (pun)
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
Possibly just robbing others, because it requires zero investment and stealing only brings returns.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
The upgrades are awesome, stage coach skills are awesome and there should be even skills for spawning npc guards for 1 minute (10 minute cooldown), keep going!
I have a bit of a concern in case there is the danger of this system offering no benefit other than farming some profits, while bringing no strategic benefits then the chance of being abandoned by the players is very high. It's because of this: If this system becomes a system for farming some profits, then people will give up using it if they get robbed constantly and just waste their time for no reason, they will find profits somewhere else for less risk.
Ensure that this system places a significant emphasis on the strategic transportation of resources vital for wars, sieges, node development, and more. Players should be motivated to transport goods as if their in-game lives relied on it, as this dynamic forges strong bonds among players. It's about sharing both the risks and the rewards of this engaging activity.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components,
Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
Gling is fine, it is the same thing we have in EVE called Loyality Points, acquired through pve and pvp, nowadays there are many types of loyality points: navy LP, pirate LP, etc. Worked like a charm in EVE, will work in AoC.
In EVE, if I have a Loyality Points of a certain pirate faction and you don't have, you can't even farm that LP because wars, you live somewhere else, etc.... what you will do is you ask me to buy something for you (ingame, discord, forums) then I will go the vendor and we will trade. We will decide among ourselves our exchange rate. So player to player exchange rate is run by players.
NPC exchange rates are fixed on standings among the factions, if I have empire LP and I want to exchange to a non-empire store then the rate will be harsh. Pirate stores won't accept empire LP, and so on.
In AoC, it could be the same thing for glint, corrupted glint etc, some vendors won't even exchange certain currency and others would exchange in a good or bad rate. Worked in EVE, specially because it created market opportunity and player run trading.
Players do love cutting the middle man (npc exchange rate) and trading directly with less cost and more profit.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Only EVE Online has a satisfactory courier system, the goods are wrapped in a package and the hauler will see where he has to deliver each package. Once the package reaches its endpoint, with a click the goods are unpacked and automatically placed in the rightful owner's hangar. Such system lets you haul different packages from different people, and once you arrive to the destination the goods are placed in the client's hangar.
I believe these goods could have a stamped label indicating the owner's name, the pickup location, the delivery destination, and a time limit for delivery. Implementing such a system would provide players with incentives to establish specialized courier guilds and create organizations like to the East India Company, crucial for hauling goods at the sea where PvP is free for all. The hauler's success rate could be a thing in this.
I am 100% pro piracy, but I like both sides having all tools at hand for the best possible experience.
It was made in a way that looks very realistic, but I think I should be sliglty unreal or tweak it a way that brings more maneuverability
We'll all get the sled caravan cosmetic switch and glide across the ice. :P
Hello Vaknar, I have seen the livestream of the caravan and I loved a lo of the parts. regarding your questions:
- I like the base system, there are still some gray area to explore, like the PvP and rewards systems behind.
- I liked very much how a player can move in the map: opening other ways in the wild to avoid dangerous encounters, something blocking the road and so on.
- I'm cornered about the caravan spawn: from what I understand a player can spawn it anywhere. If that is the case a player can purchase stuff from node A, move to node B as a regular player (also much faster). Spawn the caravan right next to his goal, and arrive there, without any need of request help from other players, lose anything from attackers, give any rewards, and other dangers he could encounter with the caravan on the road.
- Seeking Glints in the wild fighting monsters, trade them for commodities, move the commodities with caravan to other nodes for money, the further the better. The exchange rade depends from the distance to other nodes and other stuff as market-rates from what i understood. Sound fun, have to try! Regarding the components of the caravan: I like how a player can personalize it depending on the situation: travel distance, how many commodities, speed or defense, wat skills to equip and so on....
- The only caravan system I experienced in MMO is the caravan even in WvW in Guild Wars 2, I'm looking forward for yours!
At the moment I like the system, and I'm looking forward for the next updates, I want to wait more regarding the PvP aspect of the caravan. For the current aspects, I have the following feedbacks:
- Caravans upgrades: make them scavengeable by the owner in case of the caravan destruction. In this way he could re-create them without starting from 0, it would be quite punishing losing both the commodities and all the upgrades.
- Caravan spawn area: to be able to spawn a caravan anywhere would bring to the kind of issues written before:
"player can purchase stuff from node A, move to node B as a regular player (also much faster). Spawn the caravan right next to his goal, and arrive there, without any need of request help from other players, lose anything from attackers, give any rewards, and other dangers he could encounter with the caravan on the road."
A possible fix would be: the Cargo inventory is like a second bank linked exclusively to the Node. In this way every Node will have its own cargo inventory. Players that spawn a caravan can allocate Commodities of the current region of the Node they are in.
Caravan skills: the sprint and area-heal looks great, especially the second to help the defenders. the third skill that made the attackers "fly away" looks a little bit weird.
- Defenders: can a player sign-up as defender when the caravan is on they way, or only when it is spawning? I did not get this info.
- Glit: how much is the rate of loot for this? Is the type of Glint related to the level of challenge and monster-type? Can corrupted players loot corrupted Glint? This would be cool!
- Commodities: the further are transported from the original Node, the more their value increase, simple and good idea, I have one question: is it possible to know the original Node where the Commodities came from by looking and their descriptions, or other indicators?
BONUS: Trees fall damage: make it happen!
Since Community Office Hours is happening next week, moving the date for when we'll start this report to Friday, November 17. The original post has been edited.
If you don't know what Office Hours is, this is a chance to discuss what we're collecting feedback on, over Discord voice chat. Think of it like participating in this forum conversation, but in a podcast style. This will happen in Discord on Thursday, November 16 at 11AM PST (convert to your local time), and you can get more information about Community Office Hours here.
Here are some of the discussion prompts for Community Office Hours, and timestamps to specific moments in the livestream if you missed them. Feel free to respond to any of these discussion prompts if it helps you share feedback on the Caravan System.
Thanks all! Appreciate everyone that has given us their time to provide their feedback here in this thread, or in any of the other places where we collect feedback.
Cities become places to visit and enjoy by their activity, the more players and things to do/see the more they are inviting. Nothing worse in a MMO ariving at a city and there are no players to see.
The current caravan proceess takes players out of the city that might otherwise have been within the city walls and effectively decentralizes or disperses the population.
I strongly believe where possible the cities need to be hubs of activity and some means to keep players re-visiting and staying in various areas.
Could the spawning be within city agoras and perhaps then some means to have them trek out into the world in cloak or stealth?
Bergund:
I am very comforted and grounded to see many aspects of caravans showcased in the last Dev stream all in one go. It felt great to see the new design of spawning caravans due to the player moving to the location themselves. The market value changing due to distance travelled was great to see functioning in the stream.
Skolfir:
“Fantastic system with tons of promise, player agency feels like its at the forefront, and from a gameplay and storybuilding perspective really opens up a living breathing world and economy.”
Farin:
Looks great, very promising, brings up MANY more questions
Saljourn:
Only good impressions! One thing that may be missing is topographical physics affecting the speed and momentum of caravans. GIVE THEM WEIGHT! Would bring a lot of importance to planning out routes.
Bergund:
I am grateful for the opportunity to have agency in where the caravan spawns, and the risk in doing so with a big red flag alerting others to my plans. I love that players can design their caravans for off roading, or speed, or cargo load, etc. I can't wait to see the value in taking caravans into the waterways and the potential risks and rewards in doing so
Farin:
Love the risk vs. reward aspect and scouting the routes
Skolfir:
It feels like a WONDERFUL replacement for something that could be done as “repeatable” quests, as each caravan run is dynamic and will encourage a variety of things to happen along the journey.
“Tons of exciting avenues of playstyle , Diplomacy , Trade , PVP, PVE (gaurds) Economy sim , tons of avenues for fun.”
Drof:
NPCs and how they engage with protecting the caravan, and the potential for NPCs to be distracted away from the caravan for attackers to take advantage of. The strategic elements of NPC guards for attackers and defenders
Bergund:
I am concerned players won't have the ability to handle the obstacles ( like the fallen tree ). I would like to see Lumberjacks have the potential to chop that tree down ( bringing value to their profession outside of harvesting ). It didn't make sense that the player can cut trees down in the general forest to clear a path for the caravan, but they couldn't chop the tree away that was blocking the route. I am also concerned that there is very little, if any, known risk for players to attack the caravans (instead of defending them). What does reputation have to do with the caravan system, and what are some risks in getting "bad boy/girl points"?
Drof:
Do players get options for NPCs and what capabilities they’ll have at their disposal, for strategic planning? Because if the NPCs don’t have logic (protecting the caravan / doing what they’re supposed to do / specific abilities), they’ll feel worthless. A bit concerned about combat for caravans in the water, and how will NPCs interact with that as well?
Farin:
Amphibious caravans? What will the gameplay look and feel like in that regard. Water caravans: do the players have to consider wind and or water currents when delivering caravans over water? Sea monsters… can water caravans feel threatened by underwater mobs. Can the driver of the caravan have an ability bar for NPC guards ( giving the player a way to control the NPC guards - “guard”, “attack”, “flee”, etc )
Skolfir:
A similar System can be found in Albion online (However different) This system can be taxing for solo players and potentially unobtainable , there could be perks or reasons a solo can also achieve in a lesser sense what a group can. Equity across this system is not truly possible but thats okay, not every system can be perfectly balanced for group and solo play.
Saljourn:
Is there a way for players to set up the potential for an ambush? Cutting trees, or pushing rocks into the path? The more the environment can be taken into account for attackers and defenders, the better. Can caravan collision damage be a thing for players to consider?
Adgron:
Will players be able to set traps ( like we saw in the World Event stream ) that could be used to damage caravans?
Bergund:
I enjoyed seeing the change in value of cargo depending on distance, and I can't wait comprehend how that will be affected further due to how often the commodities have been sold to that node in the last 7 days etc.
Saljourn:
Depending on what node you’re in, getting the opportunity to customize your caravan for off road capabilities due to the component list and access at that node’s caravanserai. Can crafters offer components to the caravanserai, or are they only available due to caravanserai upgrades from Mayoral decisions?
Skolfir:
Love the name “Glint” instead of “Monster Certificates”
“The thought of upgrades and node specific boons also applying to a caravan could be very cool. The commodities also being node specific or node influenced or maybe even culture locked could open some awesome story , econ , and memorable journeys.”
Adgron:
Storage tax for non-citizens? For players that are not selling their cargo in the node they are visiting, to incentivize the Node having the ability to hold other player’s cargo, and to add a fun amount of pressure for players not selling their cargo right away
Farin:
Concerned that larger guilds will have scouts on the roads and due to those players knowing whats on caravans along the routes, they can communicate to their guildies in the neighboring nodes to sell their cargo in storage of the same type in their nodes to thwart the returns of the cargo the caravan would be getting.
Drof:
Would be nice to have artisan professions affecting the component list available at the caravanserai,
Bergund:
Red Dead Redemption II had a type of activity that felt like a caravan system, and it had great potential, but there was very little engagement for PvP. To imagine the potential risk vs reward with regards to AoC's caravan system is very exciting. Another thing that RDR2 did VERY well ( I believe this feature made it stand out from most Western open world video games ) was "the ~60+ second rule". Essentially, while travelling the roads, players had the potential for something to happen or "run into" along the way. Red Dead II not just provided hot spots of activity in towns, but players on their journey from one hot spot to another (read: nodes), things would happen- not a constant barrage of content, but an embrace of the minutiae of Verra and the beautiful space it is. The caravan stream seemed to acknowledge that design choice, and I STRONGLY encourage the design philosophy of a "~60+ second rule" to be considered in more ways than JUST the caravans influencing the world.
Rawblin:
ArcheAge's Trade Run system felt great, but felt too individualized. AoC's caravan system feels more group oriented and important to have many folks working together to make it happen.
Drof:
Albion Online had a similar system, and it was VERY challenging and punishing in that game for solo players
Farin:
I've experienced a caravan system in Crowfall that was limited to transporting materials from mines, lumber mills and quarries to your city for building purpose. Ashes of Creations caravans are broader in design, materials can be sold in another node for commercial ends which is great!
After a grueling shift in the mines, with many great findings, the dwarves of Dünhold now return to the mountain to await the next prompt from the glorious Intrepid Studios team.
The coin is a rite of passage. SO BE IT.
Prices should have more criteria to change. If the destination nodes are part of different metropolis vassal tree, profit should be higher.
Some commodities should be rarely occurring. Delivery of some rare commodities could be time critical too.
Players should pay tax for holding a caravan in a node. Doing private caravan jobs should be like a business, there should be a progression, getting access to better commodities, special customers, missions involving caravans...
You know what ? Actually, this Question is "BRILLIANT" ... ...
if " The Change " from Autumn to Winter - you know with the Rivers freezing - can come fluidly ingame and lets say, not over a Server Maintenance Shutdown or so,
i have a Suggestion to let the "frozen River" come in Three different Phases.
Phase 1 :
- Slight/thin Ice-Layers in the Water. Long Story short, making the Movement Speed in the Water of the River slower. Maybe your own Character issuing a Warning, like :
" Oh dear. The Rivers are starting to freeze this Year. Better be careful in the coming Days ahead. " or something.
Phase 2 :
- Thicker and more Layers of Ice floating in the River. Reducing the Speed of a Caravan (Raft) even more than in Phase 1. Your Character could yet again say something, to issue a Warning of what is to come.
" Heavens. We can barely move forward. If the River gets frozen even more, Caravans can cross it like normal Terrain. But we should move out of here quickly, before it freezes completely over. "
Lastly, of Course,
Phase 3 :
- The River has frozen over completely. Caravans can cross Rivers now like it's just normal Terrain on Land, but if someone is unlucky enough to be inside of it with a "Raft-Version" of a Caravan - the Caravan becomes immobilised completely and is easy picking for whoever happens to pass by.
The End. lol 😁
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
I mean, if I were the caravan owner, and trying to be sneaky by traversing through the forest and staying out of sight... I wouldn't want a pop up to come up for someone nearby saying that there is a caravan and that they can choose to either defend or attack it... it would defeat the purpose of trying to be sneaky. In fact, it can be the case at times that you could be passing by someone who is quite close, but because they are busy gathering/farming etc they might not even notice you.
On the other hand, if someone decides to be an attacker, do they have to get close to the caravan to make this choice? If say a ranger decides to attack, it wouldn't be very fair on them if they had to get within a certain range of the caravan before deciding if they're going to attack it.
So the choice to whether attack or defend would have to be given actually clicking on the caravan (regardless of distance), as a possible solution. Not sure what the AOC team has in mind regarding this.
I'd like to second this guy's take - I know this is fantasy, and that everyone has their own ideal level of suspension of disbelief for their ideal fantasy world, but this is a little over-the-top for my preference.
Players should be able to match speed with the caravan ( + - ) or right click and match speed of caravan. it makes the pacing very uniform.
Trees should harm what they fall on (sorry Steven, Watch you back, the lumberjacks may be conspiring against you)
The knock back is a bit OP but it is a fun mechanic.
Road blocks by procedure and player really add to the dynamic but should be throttled. ( No spam falling trees or boulders)
The smaller Caravans should have a quicker spawn time as there only hope is to be discrete and speedy.
Players should be able to engage in ranged combat from the drivers seat anyone in range and field of view.
Great job keep it up!!
In my opinion, psychologically, it would better to see a caravan and think "I don't want to mess with that." Rather than every caravan becoming a target. This would make the caravans feel less immersive and more like a minigame for constant PvP action. People would run caravans just to get in fights with less repercussions.
Nothing I got burn out doing caravans in FFXIV 1.0 & Trading (basically the same) in BDO. It is now content to avoid at all costs, so I hope there are equally rewarding opportunity elsewhere.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Caravan system?
To be honest the NPC's flying into the sky as shown. But once again not interested in caravans.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan System Preview?
Very concerned that this will be the only content to do long term /only rewarding content to do long term.
Do you have thoughts or feelings regarding some of the aspects of Caravans, such as Caravan components, Glint, Commodities, Exchange Rates, etc?
Can they be used in other ways? if not its a waste as not interested in caravans!
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
BDO - Trading via horse, npc spawn on road, players flag up to gank & steal.
FFXIV 1.0 (OG)- NPC caravan does a loop, you guard from npc's/Monsters. Was the only content & only rewarding content long term, burn out on it!
Archeage - At this point I Avoided it like the plague because burn out on this type of content.
^^ Liked them when I started doing them, after a month of nothing else worth doing got sick of them, after 4 months ended up playing other games.
Overall, a great discussion and I can't thank the Intrepid Studios team enough for the opportunity to take our focused feedback on topics like this.
The coin is a rite of passage. SO BE IT.
Excited:
* risk vs reward represented
* events (fallen trees, landslides, bandits)
* not skyrim horses
Concerns:
* what if its more efficient to grind glint and sell at face value rather than running a caravan (because caravans/components cost gold and are slow)
* how will they go about showing materials in the caravan, especially with skins
feedback:
* powerpoint was needed for things like crates, looting caravans, and benifits of attacking vs defending a caravan
2. Glint and Commodities - What are your thoughts on Glint and Commodities, and how they interact with the Caravan System as a way for players to make gold?
Glint tl;dr: Get glint from mobs (bound to character). Used to pay for taxes, citizenship dues, and commodities. You can sell the commodities directly back to the vendor for instant cash, or use caravan to travel to nearby nodes for extra cash.
I like the glint system, and think that it can possibly help deter botting and RMT since glint is bound, and the way to unlock more of its potential involves risk.
3. Caravan Components - What do you think about the Caravan component system modifying stats and granting passive and active abilities to Caravans?
Wants:
* modularity, should support different builds, speedy, stealthy, tanky, offensive (maybe attaching ballistas)
Concerns:
* Components will be a large front-loaded cost and are also basically consumables. Worried components would dig so heavily into profits that people just wont use them.
4. Caravan Risk vs Reward - How do you feel about how PvP factors into the risk vs reward of running Caravans? What feedback do you have about the current plans for how caravans will be looted?
Loose Quote From Steven: When a caravan gets destroyed, it creates a wreckage, which will have a number of the supplies the caravan was carrying (some portion is immediately lost once caravan is destroyed). When stolen by attackers, those supplies become stolen/corrupted glint OR stolen "resources". If the supplies are commodities, they maintain their commodity type, and players would have to create a new caravan (thats empty) to haul the supplies back. You can also break into the crates/cargo, which loses some of the "resources" in the process.
(He comments that systems like this are subject to constant revision and playtesting, so they are most definetely open to this system changing)
Overall feedback:
* Commodities should become "stolen/corrupted glint" during a wreckage if the commodity crate is broken.
* if crates can store both gatherables and commodities in the same crate, that needs to be clearly represented to the player (both in the caravan storage loading UI, and on the crate itself). even if you cant mix, crates contents should still be clearly represented
* players should be able to carry (slow walk) a crate (wouldnt go in inventory), or be able to interact with crates using mules somehow
* wreckages should be similar to node destruction (open pvp lootable zone)
It would be easy for them to restrict an IP to 1 account per player. If a player is found out to have lied and is pedaling an additional account then they shall will be banned for life. They can put that in their rule book. Also you can make a special request if you have some one else in your household that wants their own account. No cheating or you are banned for ever.
On the topic of Glint, I like it; it's over lap with the vehicle system is nifty. I'd like to see the bulk of the economy system before I really give my opinion on glint. As of now, I like the direction of it and where its going. I'm not interested in armchair economics and the doomgloom associated with it so far.
Caravan Components, to reiterate what I've mentioned, I'll use my military experience and expertise when it comes to the vehicle systems, the arcane engineering/siegesmithing systems. Military convoy style caravans are going to be a massive pain in the ass with force, it's going to launch people all over and someones going to eventually get ping-ponged through the environment. The solution here is more mods in the style of a lead and rear "gun truck". The nice thing about high fantasy is you can achieve these means without ever touching black powder. Potion Launchers, Turrets, Crystal Spike Rail Systems, etc. I can come up with a list of alternative ways to implement siege style and military style upgrades that still fits within Stevens vision.
On the topic of risk vs reward, this discussion was way over blown and to me a bit under warranted to have such a concern. The simple and most effective method to put some risk on the attackers is to use systems already attached to the economy system to also put some cost on the attackers. This is easily achieve through smaller, more mobile units made within Siegesmithing/Arcane Engineering that would be the equivalent to rocket launchers, mines, grenades, etc. The key here is to make the sapper/combat engineer nature of these items do more damage to the vehicles than the players.
The second part of this is the simple guild declaration system, people will get punished for disturbing the actions of other guilds. I am entirely in the "fuck around and find out" camp, attack the wrong guild and they'll be getting their buddies to chain dec people.
For example guild said guys lets meet up at 9 pm and do 100 caravan at once for example caravn 500% profit each and 500 people just travel with 100 caravans and destroying everyone in their way . Okay if those numbers are to big lets say 5 caravans full maxed and they transfer highest value materials to other node with 100 people and other smaller groups can't kill them because its just to many of them . You can't prepare to attack caravan if there is 10 caravans of which 100 people protecting them .
Second question how you prevent caravan griefing?
For example guild block all the way with their caravans ofc there is nothing in it just to block way or dungeon or even node entrance and exit .
What will happen if the player dc when riding the caravan?