does combat need a revamp?

as for the graphics and esthetics of the game everything is looking great and the more time that passes it looks better and better each live stream, however one issue i have and this may just be my opinion but having such a long development cycle for this game has the issue that combat needs to be revamped or overhauled 3-4x before we even launch, there are so many positives about the game over the past year however the combat to me still looks extremely dull, slow-paced and almost looks like a isometric game whilst watching it, ( think diablo ) this might feel way different when actually playing the game so take that with a grain of salt but does anyone have any suggestions or feedback for this?

a good example to me would be mage in wow dragon flight vs mage in AoC, i don't play wow but from the shorts i have seen the mage in wow looks super reactive, versatile, fast paced, exactly what a mage should be, the mage in AoC looks like its trying to play while it has 2 feet and an arm in quicksand, the abilities are slow, the combat isn't reactive, blizzard looks terrible to use as it almost ccs your self and it just doesn't seem fun to play, this isnt a FuD or critique post just my opinions and id love to hear yours, have a great day!

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Azherae

Oooh! An appeal to baseless emotional responses!

Me first!

YES!

Chicago

Azherae wrote: »

Oooh! An appeal to baseless emotional responses!

Me first!

YES!

not really sure what you mean by that lol but okay xD

Ludullu

Yes, we should definitely have a tenth full redesign of the combat before even entering A2. Then we'll have 20 more redesigns during A2 and then when the game comes out Intrepid will need to do at least 3 more, because people will complain then too.

That would definitely be the most logical and reasonable way to do things

Chicago

NiKr wrote: »

Yes, we should definitely have a tenth full redesign of the combat before even entering A2. Then we'll have 20 more redesigns during A2 and then when the game comes out Intrepid will need to do at least 3 more, because people will complain then too.

That would definitely be the most logical and reasonable way to do things

i love how impossible it is to actually have a conversation about anything on these forums without posts like this but okay mate you obviously know thats not what i was saying

Ludullu

Chicago wrote: »

i love how impossible it is to actually have a conversation about anything on these forums without posts like this but okay mate you obviously know thats not what i was saying

It's mostly impossible because we all have completely different opinions that are based on completely different preferences.

I prefer the current combat design and I'd rather than have a yet another discussion of "should we have split body or not". And this would be that exact discussion, because changing the speed of mage abilities has huge implications for the balancing of the entire combat system.

We haven't seen the entire skillset. We haven't seen bard and all his buffs. We haven't seen any potential synergies that might influence how fast the combat might be in a real situation. Hell, we haven't truly seen real combat, because all of the shit we've seen so far has been staged in one way or another. We've also mostly seen Steven's pov, who likes to have his camera up in the stratosphere and play the game like a strategy (he's just like me frfr).

In other words, before A2 we (as in, the majority of us) can't say how the game truly plays. So the only thing you can get from people in this sort of discussion is 10+ pages of "NO IT SHOULD BE HOW I WANT IT!! - FUCK YOU, MY WAY IS THE ONLY LOGICAL WAY!!"

Mag7spy

Seeing combat and playing it yourself are two different things. Things might feel a lot more faster when you are actually playing it and when you have an average level kit (level 35).

If you are looking at AoC alpha combat and trying to compare it to a mmorpg without context you are already in the wrong imo. You are comparing a alpha to a finished game, you are comparing a low level character to a high lvl character.

You shouldn't not be expecting to see top tier kits of what has currently been shown as they mentioned they want players to have mobility (doesn't mean zooming). Expect combat to be even faster naturally as you gain more tools. Also don't expect all classes to be as fast.

Honestly if you have an example you should share the video link im failing to see what looks special about this though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCswVSOJ3zA

Mag7spy

@NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Yeah, I know. And to me wow looks slow as fuck. As I'm sure L2 seems slow as fuck to those who haven't played it. And why Ashes might seem slow as fuck to us right now.

That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Yeah, I know. And to me wow looks slow as fuck. As I'm sure L2 seems slow as fuck to those who haven't played it. And why Ashes might seem slow as fuck to us right now.

That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.

Honestly im more confused how you can say it should be like wow and reference that as fast lol.

TheHiddenDaggerInn

I won’t be able to give a honest thought on combat, until we have had a chance to see how it feels, watching it might not do it service. I don’t need the best combat either as long as the game loops are fun.

Chicago

those asking for

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Yeah, I know. And to me wow looks slow as fuck. As I'm sure L2 seems slow as fuck to those who haven't played it. And why Ashes might seem slow as fuck to us right now.

That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.

Honestly im more confused how you can say it should be like wow and reference that as fast lol.

those asking for references here are some, also i am aware its an A2 game and not finished im just bringing up these points to get some feedback as we have not seen any combat advances in what feels like years at this point but here you go

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d9b1a8gQ7NY

vs

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lmOLFT48VHw

Chicago

Chicago wrote: »

those asking for

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Yeah, I know. And to me wow looks slow as fuck. As I'm sure L2 seems slow as fuck to those who haven't played it. And why Ashes might seem slow as fuck to us right now.

That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.

Honestly im more confused how you can say it should be like wow and reference that as fast lol.

those asking for references here are some, also i am aware its an A2 game and not finished im just bringing up these points to get some feedback as we have not seen any combat advances in what feels like years at this point but here you go

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d9b1a8gQ7NY

vs

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lmOLFT48VHw

like just as an example in my opinion little things like having a cast time on a spell that then creates a ball that moves in slow motion towards the enemy looks like it would feel super bad, make it move faster or remove the cast time, by the way i am aware it may feel totally different whilst playing the game

Mag7spy

Chicago wrote: »

those asking for

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Yeah, I know. And to me wow looks slow as fuck. As I'm sure L2 seems slow as fuck to those who haven't played it. And why Ashes might seem slow as fuck to us right now.

That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.

Honestly im more confused how you can say it should be like wow and reference that as fast lol.

those asking for references here are some, also i am aware its an A2 game and not finished im just bringing up these points to get some feedback as we have not seen any combat advances in what feels like years at this point but here you go

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d9b1a8gQ7NY

vs

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lmOLFT48VHw

There is not much of a difference if you cut out the fat of half of that clip. WoW mage standing still to cast a spell is no different that AoC standing still to cast a spell lol. I think you are letting the music and sporadic camera movements make you think something is faster than it actually is.

Now that im done taking the clip at face value based on your own point. I am overly tired of your post like this trying to compare a max level character to a lvl 15 character. UIF you are trying to do a clip comparison and want t be taken seriously find a lvl 15 WoW mage and use that to compare to Aoc at the very minimum.

Though you aren't going to do that because you wouldn't have much of a point then right -winks-

Also why are you using a skill showcase and using it to compare high lvl pvp....Like please make your takes some what genuine atleast. You should be showing the pvp showcase and still not taking that as high level pvp, nor max level pvp....

You are ruining your own point by having the conversation be about you using things in a unbalanced way to try to make a point...

Pyrolol

Chicago wrote: »

Chicago wrote: »

those asking for

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Yeah, I know. And to me wow looks slow as fuck. As I'm sure L2 seems slow as fuck to those who haven't played it. And why Ashes might seem slow as fuck to us right now.

That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.

Honestly im more confused how you can say it should be like wow and reference that as fast lol.

those asking for references here are some, also i am aware its an A2 game and not finished im just bringing up these points to get some feedback as we have not seen any combat advances in what feels like years at this point but here you go

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d9b1a8gQ7NY

vs

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lmOLFT48VHw

like just as an example in my opinion little things like having a cast time on a spell that then creates a ball that moves in slow motion towards the enemy looks like it would feel super bad, make it move faster or remove the cast time, by the way i am aware it may feel totally different whilst playing the game

You realise that exact move is in WoW too, Arcane sphere in Arcane spec, it just goes slightly faster than what you see in Ashes. WoWs speed and pace has picked up dramatically over the last decade. Go back 10-15years
Every spell took longer to cast (roughly 2-4 seconds) before cd reductions, even mounting got cut in half, they had ranks for different spells (bigger the rank the longer the cast) WoW has a lot of instant casts too and relying on procs to make spells go from cast to instant

AoC also has skill shots, which isn’t as much in WoW, so think more NW with abilities that need to be aimed and shot at a target instead of just everything automatically hitting targets and the only counter was dead zoning

EDIT: I think things will speed up as the game progresses

Chicago

Mag7spy wrote: »

Chicago wrote: »

those asking for

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Yeah, I know. And to me wow looks slow as fuck. As I'm sure L2 seems slow as fuck to those who haven't played it. And why Ashes might seem slow as fuck to us right now.

That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.

Honestly im more confused how you can say it should be like wow and reference that as fast lol.

those asking for references here are some, also i am aware its an A2 game and not finished im just bringing up these points to get some feedback as we have not seen any combat advances in what feels like years at this point but here you go

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d9b1a8gQ7NY

vs

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lmOLFT48VHw

There is not much of a difference if you cut out the fat of half of that clip. WoW mage standing still to cast a spell is no different that AoC standing still to cast a spell lol. I think you are letting the music and sporadic camera movements make you think something is faster than it actually is.

Now that im done taking the clip at face value based on your own point. I am overly tired of your post like this trying to compare a max level character to a lvl 15 character. UIF you are trying to do a clip comparison and want t be taken seriously find a lvl 15 WoW mage and use that to compare to Aoc at the very minimum.

Though you aren't going to do that because you wouldn't have much of a point then right -winks-

Also why are you using a skill showcase and using it to compare high lvl pvp....Like please make your takes some what genuine atleast. You should be showing the pvp showcase and still not taking that as high level pvp, nor max level pvp....

You are ruining your own point by having the conversation be about you using things in a unbalanced way to try to make a point...

jesus mate you are the reason people dont discuss anything on here anymore because its the same 5 people just shutting down every single post, for starters the combat looks nothing alike, and obviously the characters are not max level in aoc but if the spells are as dull as they are now at max level i dont see what the change would be, i would like to see your opinion sure but
'' Though you aren't going to do that because you wouldn't have much of a point then right -winks ''
this shit is just stupid

Mag7spy

Chicago wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Chicago wrote: »

those asking for

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr his reference WoW so we should be looking at tab target gameplay for the speed on what he is talking about akin to WoW.

Yeah, I know. And to me wow looks slow as fuck. As I'm sure L2 seems slow as fuck to those who haven't played it. And why Ashes might seem slow as fuck to us right now.

That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.

Honestly im more confused how you can say it should be like wow and reference that as fast lol.

those asking for references here are some, also i am aware its an A2 game and not finished im just bringing up these points to get some feedback as we have not seen any combat advances in what feels like years at this point but here you go

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d9b1a8gQ7NY

vs

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lmOLFT48VHw

There is not much of a difference if you cut out the fat of half of that clip. WoW mage standing still to cast a spell is no different that AoC standing still to cast a spell lol. I think you are letting the music and sporadic camera movements make you think something is faster than it actually is.

Now that im done taking the clip at face value based on your own point. I am overly tired of your post like this trying to compare a max level character to a lvl 15 character. UIF you are trying to do a clip comparison and want t be taken seriously find a lvl 15 WoW mage and use that to compare to Aoc at the very minimum.

Though you aren't going to do that because you wouldn't have much of a point then right -winks-

Also why are you using a skill showcase and using it to compare high lvl pvp....Like please make your takes some what genuine atleast. You should be showing the pvp showcase and still not taking that as high level pvp, nor max level pvp....

You are ruining your own point by having the conversation be about you using things in a unbalanced way to try to make a point...

jesus mate you are the reason people dont discuss anything on here anymore because its the same 5 people just shutting down every single post, for starters the combat looks nothing alike, and obviously the characters are not max level in aoc but if the spells are as dull as they are now at max level i dont see what the change would be, i would like to see your opinion sure but
'' Though you aren't going to do that because you wouldn't have much of a point then right -winks ''
this shit is just stupid

Naaa you just can't take criticism for your own post and take accountability. You are even trying to make the assumption everything stays the same as lvl 15 even ignoring what they have not just talked about but shown in showcases with skills changing.

WoW is basic and its not hard to do any of that, and why it looks the same once you cut out the bs. Use spell target area, channel; and cast or use spell while being able to move and target or area affect. THere is nothing special that is shown in the video at all no speed or anything of the sort. Just expectations of what a higher level character can do. The wow character was simply jumping and using blink once in awhile (their blink looks terrible btw).

Ya how about i do that isntead of you trying to spread misinformation about skills.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Augments
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Active_skills

Im literarily tired of your combat post trying to have bad takes, and say its bad because its not like a max lvl WoW character.

Not to mention now you are moving the top from speed to "Dull" and I don't even know what that is suppose to mean in relation to speed....

Edit* to make this clear i don't care if you have criticism of the combat, everyone does i have my own voice points it should be more action oriented. But what you are using as an example for speed and your points aren't making any kind of strong argument....Imo more like WoW is not the direction it should go that is not good.

tautau

@Chicago I hope you don't mind me giving you friendly advice about how to get a better reaction on these boards, if I may?

It will be easier to understand you (at least for me) if you would break your paragraphs into sentences and use proper capitalization other common rules of English. Such writing just makes it easier to follow your ideas. For example, your first paragraph in the OP was 123 words without a sentence break, the second one was 114.

It is too easy for the reader to get bogged down and unable to follow the logical flow. After you type a first draft, consider proofreading and improving what you wrote in order to clarify your ideas. This will make people more receptive to what you are saying.

Nerror

Combat in Ashes is undergoing constant "revamps" until release already. It's an iterative process that doesn't stop. They are not going to redesign from scratch, which I know is different from revamp, so what you are asking for is already happening. It may not be in the direction you want, but don't think for a second they won't be constantly working on it until release. And probably even after as well.

Otr

Chicago wrote: »

however the combat to me still looks extremely dull, slow-paced and almost looks like a isometric game whilst watching it, ( think diablo )

Diablo 4?
Maybe if you zoom out too much.

Liniker

2055 release lets go, I'd say we need a rework on the node system that we haven't seen finished but when its done they should definitely rework it

Intrepid should definitely listen to OP that is comparing fully finished MMOs with level +60 combat with lvl 15 pre-alpha combat, looks like he knows what he is talking about.

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