Caravan Event

ok So I made a post about this before and did a very bad job of looking into the info that's out there and describing my opinion on that so I'm hoping I might do better.. and see if its discussion worthy, also for the TLDR read the last paragraph lol

so what's the point of caravans why does ashes of creation need or use them?,

in ashes the main Drop when killing content in the open world is going to be a resource called glint it is bound to the character and can not be traded between players.
its what the old monster certs have now been rebranded as. This is not money but a resources to be used in nodes to exchange for other services or goods that they them selfs can the be turned into gold.

It seems there are many ways of doing this but one of the most profitable ways that has been shown so far is to use glint to by commodity with in a node that produces/sales that commodity at a low rate of glint and to transport that glint to another node that wants the commodity and so is willing to pay a good gold price for it.

Caravan are also from what we can tell, to be used by mayors to setup trade routes between nodes. And also as quests/System caravans with a certain commodity between nodes for players to defend.

Ok so thats the why caravans, it best way to make gold. Now how about, how do I do that and what are the risks of that with in ashes world?.

Caravans are bought with gold from a node building and can be upgraded with gold with extras that allow extra storage amour and so on. So there will be a expense to profit ratio with caravans as to what the best setup will be for the transfer of what goods and to how far.

Now this is where some of the mechanic start to become unclear. We know that to start your caravan that you just bought you need to launch it from your inventory while with an area outside the node. And wait a time for the caravan to be built and ready to depart. Once the caravan has been launched it seems to starts the caravan event system.

Is this used by the caravan system to check its proximity around it to see if there are any potential attackers or PvE events that the caravan may have entered into. And if so does it then bring up system alert to ask if you want to participate in the event? In some of the info out there it seems you can accept to defend it or attack it or ignore it. Does this mean as a caravan you can opt-out of PVP/PVE?

What we do know if players did want to attack a caravan, that there will be a Defenders side that would consist of players that joined the party of the caravan and would denoted them as so, and we know if players choosing to join the attack of the caravan would also be partied and be denoted as so. The the event would play out we do not know what the parameters of the event will be to reach an end but we were shown an ending that resulted in the defending side all being wiped and the caravan destroyed. This seemed to end the event with the caravan contents spilling to the floor in boxes to be looted

the attacker had choices to open loot there and not get much or to call a pre planed caravan out from the closet node to them and take the loot box whole in a new caravan event.

When getting to a node the caravan would de-spawn and you speak to the commodity vender to unload your caravan witch would take a certain amount of time before you would be able to have your goods to then sell or do with as you wish.

And that concludes the caravan system as we know it..

but it does throw up a few question that were not answered or are vague enough that people are not sure how they would work or feel in game to play..

like could I be in range of the caravan but not see it and still get notification to attack? If so is that fair to the caravan? Does it take away the ability to slip though places unseen by the caravan?.

If unable to opt-out of PvP/PvE will it be possible to do any type of caravan events as small guilds/player groups (under 10 players) with out being zerg'ed on by larger groups of players or PvE content?.

Ok so the big one we understand that in open world with PVP there is always a risk to reward aspect of the game.

The reward of a caravan is the larger amount of gold that comes from them or the completion of a mayoral caravan/ quest caravan. And the risk comes from losing it all by being attacked.
So as a person wanting to take a caravan, their must be a significant desire to gain the reward using the caravan system vs the risk of losing it all.

I see this being a problem for a few reasons. Using caravan to transport commodity though the open world might seem to be like it would be as if you were just walking between nodes but with a caravan but it is not. The player will have to understand that it has entered into an event. This will be confusing to players.

The difference in open world pvp and caravan event pvp are very different. If attacked as a player in the world there are consequences to the aggressor and if the aggressor kills will end up corrupted, a big consequence with a lot of ramifications. If attacked as a caravan event the only consequence to the aggressor is item degradation. This will confuse players so much that it will have a big effect on weather they would use a caravan system again.

The two systems are so out of alignment that players will feel a Hugh disparity for what feels like open PvP in an open world with the only difference being the caravan. But the PvP difference is hugh, and with out bring these two system closer into alignment I beleave the player base will have a hard time using these systems. Zerging guilds who can have 60 + players on at any time will close a area down to anyone trying to transport a caravan though if there are no consequence the larger group wins in MMOs we know this.

I do however think that a solution is viable and both helps out another system, and allows conflict to happen on servers though player interaction.. if when attacking caravans the attacking side in the event where as a consequence of joining the attacking side were to gain corruption and more importantly to lose reputation in the node the caravan came from and the one the caravan is in when the attack began it would make the attacker think is this worth it?. And most of the time it will be. A small bit of corruption say enough to be worked off over a few days, but still bring people into the bounty hunter system, reputation loss of nodes no problem as long as your far enough away from the nodes you like or use, but it does mean you might not be able to res there if your reputation is to low... and this is the point you can attack a caravan get the loot make the profit but you can't zerg 5 caravan in one night like this or you would ruin your reputation with nodes for a long time and build a lot of corruption to have to work off.... much like the open world PVP system. It pulls two systems a lot closer together in feeling and would not stop caravan pvp but would stop the griefing of caravan pvp.

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Comments

Apok

I was worried about large guilds zerging down caravans too, but let's say it's not so easy to get around and said guild would have to spend some time going after caravans even if they go full navy seal on them. the people could just make dummy caravan runs to force the other guild to waste their time going after useless caravans.

at the end of the day it's still a video game and what's important is you have fun, if that fun is made by trolling shitheads who want to try and dominate a server, I'm down for it.

Aszkalon

Ethanh37 wrote: »

so what's the point of caravans why does ashes of creation need or use them?

1.) Risk versus Reward System.

2.) Important for Nodes, in several ways.

3.) Opportunity for awesome and hence, "funny" PvP Scenarios. Beware of not taking the Game to seriously, because sometimes you WILL lose some or much cargo.

4.) Danger-Stranger. People might trying to lie in wait for Caravans to ambush. Look also at Point 3.

6.) You probably didn't notice that there is no Point 5.)

7.) Teamwork-Experiences and Events, that can also be quite funny. Many MMO-Players, me included - yearn for more Content INCLUDING OPEN WORLD CONTENT, which provides the Chance to work in a Team. Not just for Battlegrounds or Instances like in World of WoW-Token Craft. But in general.

Aszkalon

Edit : strange. now it works ... ... ... hold on a Moment ... ... ...

edit 2 : should i be curious of why exactly this Forums is trying to struggle against the Quotes i want to, well, quote here ? This Topic is not closed, now is it ? So why this Attempt to suppress further talk ?

Vaknar

Aszkalon wrote: »

Edit : strange. now it works ... ... ... hold on a Moment ... ... ...

edit 2 : should i be curious of why exactly this Forums is trying to struggle against the Quotes i want to, well, quote here ? This Topic is not closed, now is it ? So why this Attempt to suppress further talk ?

Your posts were being auto-flagged for breaking the forum rules

Feel free to DM me if you'd like clarification

Songcaller

There actually is little need for a caravan for most players. It is a niche system for Guilds, merchants and mayors. If we did not have the caravan system then Guilds, merchants and mayors would never have risk at all - remember, crafting levels are not tied to adventure levels.

Halae

Songcaller wrote: »

There actually is little need for a caravan for most players. It is a niche system for Guilds, merchants and mayors. If we did not have the caravan system then Guilds, merchants and mayors would never have risk at all - remember, crafting levels are not tied to adventure levels.

I'm not sure where you're getting that idea. Are you referring to not needing to drive them yourself? Then you're still going to want to protect or rob them, for the pvp and loot and if no other reason. Are you referring to not needing them at all? That's just not how the game even functions. And even if you aren't going to be someone that interacts with the professions the game has to offer, the only way to transport Glint in bulk is via caravans, and taking it further away is going to give you more money in exchange. You don't do any gathering, processing, or crafting? You'll still have a use for caravans as a money-maker.

Caravans are a core system, as fundamental to the game as nodes. Technically speaking you don't need a node either - you can just be a vagabond that wanders around in the woods - but it's sure as hell not engaging with the core systems of the game.

Songcaller

Not convinced at all Halae though I am sloshed through cannabis and alcohol right now.

The jux of my position translates to no requirement at all because if you want gold simply raid the ai caravans headed to castles. The rest are huge time sinks with crap rewards overall considering how contested each caravan will be.

Edit: yes, one can be a vagabond but the devs read my previous sentiments on node affiliation, taxation and mayoral contestation and changed the whole damn societal systems to prevent my previous vagabond suggestions.

Halae

Your assumption is that those caravans aren't going to be protected, when it's in the best interests of the people involved in the guild holding the castle tom protect those caravans, and also being driven by NPCs means they'll have NPC guards. They'll be protected. They have plenty of reason to be, and many avenues for it.

No, more likely it's player caravans that'll be underguarded for the wealth they're carrying. Instead of exclusively taxes, players have to transport whatever high-end loot they get to an economic node, and the more people they pay for help the less of a profit they're making on the loot being sold off. There's always some dreamer that decides he can make a run without paying anybody and get away clean; the real world's shown us that. Additionally, we know that bandits will be able to see a general sense of how valuable the goods a caravan is carrying are externally, so they can watch for caravans that seem like a good risk to reward ratio and make attempts on those.

Songcaller

I know we do not often agree (Old Neurath), however, the point about contestation and crap rewards stems from the general design direction. If I can get glint anywhere I ain't risking my gear to hit a caravan of glint. I would rather take the castles on alongside my guild. I do not believe any Castle caravan will be lonesome and yes, I do hope for terrific battles over said caravans but the castle caravans carry taxes unlike every other caravan in potential existence.

Halae

We'll have to see how it shakes out, since we're both just up on predictions and assumptions at the moment. Hopefully the numbers are right and caravans are good for everyone, as they're supposed to be.

Songcaller

I haven't predicted anything. I have gone by Steven's statements (and Jeff's). The castle has to take taxation from the zoi or the castle will not have the ability to develop and repair. Yes, resources are also required but one does not get a castle unless one has access to the resources for siege at first blush. Therefore, any caravan to a castle is a prime target. You can not get a direct drop of gold anywhere else but a castle resupply caravan. Though, as I have stated, the devs often close off my accessible words to force us into alignment (except my ue5, dlss and chariot which I managed to get implemented).

Halae

From the way you're talking it sounds like your only real concern is castles and their income. But caravans are important for anybody with any level of income. Set aside the castle for the moment, and I'll illustrate the point.

Let's assume there's a player whose only thing is wandering around the wilderness killing things, including in pvp. While he's in the woods, killing monsters, he's collecting glint. If he kills players, they'll drop whatever resources they were carrying. That stuff he has to carry back to town and sell, because if he doesn't he won't be able to afford better gear, or repair the gear he has, because equipment degradation is a thing. He also needs a mule to carry his loot, which costs money to get. So, he needs cash.

How do you get gold in Ashes? You sell things in nodes. Most resources gathered and sold at the nearest node will go for a pittance; not enough to be worthwhile. So our killer buys himself a caravan, exchanges his glint and goods for resource crates, and takes off to the next town over where he can multiply his haul by 4; the caravan showcase showed Steven turning 2 gold spent into 8 gold, with the explicit statement that if he went further he'd have gotten more.

So, he's got tons of incentive to travel, because he needs money, and he'll get more money if he travels. If he has enough goods to make the trip, he needs a caravan, because otherwise it's a 20 minute walk to wherever he's going for relatively cheap amounts of gold.

And that's assuming Mr. Killer here has an outright aversion to professions; if his only interest is in murdering every woodland creature around and looting the corpse, he can pick up the Hunter profession to increase his hauls, such as by skinning wolves and bears and selling the pelts.

Don't act as though there's no use for caravans and no reason to attack player caravans. If they're transporting things, the transport is worth the trip. That means cracking it open to get the goods inside can make you lots of money, even if it's not a tax caravan. And, if it's not a tax caravan, you won't be pissing off whomever is in charge of the local castle.

Songcaller

Everything is crafted. I do not require any caravan usage at all. I will defend guild caravans which is enough risk and reward. Where we fall down is your belief the caravan system is worthwhile which it is not. What is worthwhile is being a gatherer and asking your crafters what is required for each product. Done it countless times. If one chest piece needs 10 iron bars I'm not about to use a caravan to transport 1000 iron bars. What an utter waste of time all round.

Edit: I had an argument years ago with some forum members when I said I will focus on hunting certificates. The forum goers laughed and ridiculed me. Then the glint system replaced the monster certs and the old ideation died with the common Mercantile Pattern.

Halae

Everything is crafted. I do not require any caravan usage at all.

Okay, good luck with having absolutely no money since you refuse to engage with the economy. Good luck selling anything; or do you assume you'll have a use for literally everything you pick up, in defiance of over 20 years of MMO loot tables results?

I will defend guild caravans which is enough risk and reward. Where we fall down is your belief the caravan system is worthwhile which it is not. What is worthwhile is being a gatherer and asking your crafters what is required for each product.

This isn't a solution to needing a caravan, Songcaller. This is foisting the responsibility of needing a caravan onto someone else. You even stated outright there'll be caravans that you defend! So which is it; is it totally useless, or just not something you want to engage with?

If one chest piece needs 10 iron bars I'm not about to use a caravan to transport 1000 iron bars. What an utter waste of time all round.

And what about the ten other guys you're working with as part of your guild? Do you expect them to not need chestpieces too? And what about repairs for your gear? That's gonna cost iron as well.

Songcaller

It is not my remit or responsibility to arm others. I often have no money in mmos - it hasn't stopped any of my achievements, neither pve nor pvp.

Let's breakdown gold requirement:
Property.
Ship.
Caravan.
Gear.
Mounts.
Pets.
Taxes.

What use is property?

Little use. Taverns are the perfect base of Operation.

What use is a ship?

Little use unless you wish to sail the oceans or protect merchant vessels.

What use is a caravan?

On demand pvp. Never to risk anything. Caravan with 1 glint inside will be the perfect weekend bait for pvp.

What use is gear?

Gear is everything. Always have spare gear. Always enchant to protected level and push limits when desired.

What use are mounts?

Difficult to know. So far Skins seem decent. No p4c, no p2w. I do not work at all and I have time to walk everywhere. Not to mention the family summoning system.

What use are pets?

Weakens the toon and shares power with the toon. Might be useful in solo encounters. Solo encounters are not the main thrust of ashes though.

What use are taxes,

No personal use at all. Just an extra gold sink determined by other players. Won't have much money and won't pay taxes either.

Therefore, I'm not sure I can agree gold is essential let alone the Caravan system. I would be in a gatherer group to get iron ore, take to processor make iron bars then to crafter. Not a lone gatherer to create all arms and the capture of territorial gains.

Halae

If your answer to "why aren't you engaging with a core system of the game?" is "Because I'm just not going to" I'm not sure we have anything more to discuss. You're free to do that. People are also free to live off in the woods away from any government oversight, or electricity, or easy access to food, but most people decide that's a hard life they want no part of.

If that's your choice, go ahead. Have a nice time with the game, I guess.

Songcaller

I gave a breakdown of my reasoning. It is not because 'I do not want to partake'. According to Steven there will be so much to do in the game you can't do it all. I have merely been ruthless in what is deemed essential and what is not. The more the devs reveal the more I break away from the superficial fillers and aim for a much heightened experience.

tautau

I suspect that running caravans will be part of the requirements for lot of quests, such as the quests required to:

~Own property, like a freehold
~Get a secondary archetype
~Own a mount
~Own a pet
~Advance in your profession (blacksmith, gatherer, &tc,)
~And LOTS of other things.

_k00k_

was watching the Asmongold Caravan update for A2, how do you guys feel about the stolen commodities? Wouldn't the people in your node that youre turning them into think of it as improving their livelihood? Would they really care how you came into posession on the goods?

Halae

_k00k_ wrote: »

was watching the Asmongold Caravan update for A2, how do you guys feel about the stolen commodities? Wouldn't the people in your node that youre turning them into think of it as improving their livelihood? Would they really care how you came into posession on the goods?

I sincerely doubt they'd care outright! But they would care about your particular reputation. If you're gonna be a bandit, you need to know that you'll piss some people off because... well, you know, you literally stole from them. If you're hanging out in the same nodes as your victims that's probably going to cause some grief. So take it a bit further afield, yeah?

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