Please add pvp to class reveals

Moving forward with future class reveals, I think it would be extremely beneficial to have a 10-15 minute duel session at the end if the stream for us to gauge the abilities in real time, and we could see perspectives from other classes. Fighter v tank, fighter v cleric,
V ranger/mage etc. I think that with the current mob/Npc AI as a work in progress we would be able to make much better observations seeing combat in a player vs player scenario and in turn give better feedback

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George_Black

5mins is enough. But it's a great suggestion.

Mag7spy

AoC is not balanced around 1v1, and they still have final balancing to do. I don't really agree with this suggestion because it reeks of wanting a note book on all elements of the class and performance of the last when its just a preview.

Id rather have them spending time making the game than trying to appease every in-depth request wanted. This kind of stuff should be shown after alpha 2 and more akin to marketing. After players have had a chance to test things in the alpha and give feed back based off playing the class / game themselves.

All these things you want to see and test you will be ablet o do yourself in the alpha when they release it after doing their polish / finishing a part of the classes.

Chicago

Mag7spy wrote: »

AoC is not balanced around 1v1, and they still have final balancing to do. I don't really agree with this suggestion because it reeks of wanting a note book on all elements of the class and performance of the last when its just a preview.

Id rather have them spending time making the game than trying to appease every in-depth request wanted. This kind of stuff should be shown after alpha 2 and more akin to marketing. After players have had a chance to test things in the alpha and give feed back based off playing the class / game themselves.

All these things you want to see and test you will be ablet o do yourself in the alpha when they release it after doing their polish / finishing a part of the classes.

Yes and no mate, it's not about balancing it's about having a better look at the classes for me, nothing will be balanced and not expected to be when we are only seeing the base abilities, I dont think this would take very long to film either, it would not have to be edited, Just a 15 minute back and forth

Sengarden

Personally, I don't think it's really necessary yet. In terms of "things to do before A2 drops", class balance and interactivity in PvP is probably not very high on the priority list. As Steven has said multiple times, this moment in time is primarily designated for "finding the fun" in each class, separate from however they may interact with other loose concepts of other classes. Things like cast time, mana cost, damage, intensity of VFX, the size of AOE zones, etc, are all highly subject to change, and not something that should be draining their time right now when they aren't even going to have enough time to finish a barebones concept of every archetype before the launch of A2. The classes all need to have their own solid vision with a sturdy, fun foundation, regardless of how they interact with others, before tweaks can be made to ensure cohesiveness between them all.

The main point I'm trying to make is that whenever a new class build drops on stream, it may be drastically over or underpowered compared to any other given archetype, and therefore, a PvP duel session likely wouldn't provide much useful info for the team's current objective beyond what showing off the abilities in a PvE environment can do. In fact, it would likely produce a bunch of useless feedback that will be irrelevant by the time the next major adjustment to another archetype is made.

There may be some A1 spot testing being done behind the scenes to rough-test how the current archetype builds play together, but I doubt this issue will take center stage for the combat design team until basic forms of all archetypes are added to A2, at least.

TheDarkSorcerer

Like i suggested in main thread. A proper 3v3 or something would be nice. Not too big, or too small, but good size to showcase class in action and in group combat.

Songcaller

I would hope the devs will do an 8v8 for a few minutes after all the archetypes are revealed. The devs have done pvp mini events before after class reveals.

Chicago

For those that thing it's about seeing pvp or balancing, it's not, balancing is more about numbers and tuning, the reason I would like to see combat in a pvp environment is because it's hard to gauge anything on a target dummy, how skill shots could work, how each skill flows into another, how gcds look and if character lock animations are to much, I dont really care about who wins the duel or overall balancing but it's really hard to give good feedback when we are not seeing any real combat

Songcaller

Steven doesn't want the feedback skewed by the pvp though. Its a difficult situation to moderate.

Sengarden

Chicago wrote: »

For those that thing it's about seeing pvp or balancing, it's not, balancing is more about numbers and tuning, the reason I would like to see combat in a pvp environment is because it's hard to gauge anything on a target dummy, how skill shots could work, how each skill flows into another, how gcds look and if character lock animations are to much, I dont really care about who wins the duel or overall balancing but it's really hard to give good feedback when we are not seeing any real combat

I understand, and I think there might potentially be some marginal merits to seeing combat tested like this more often, but the team is already inundated with feedback unrelated to their core missions atm, hence Steven's frequent friendly reminders before, at the start of, and several times throughout every video showcase.

I still think what you're talking about are all things that can be tweaked later on any ability, and already get shown to a certain extent against NPCs. Right now, I think they're more focused on look, general feel, and mechanical concept than that sort of nitty gritty stuff.

The problem, which I think @Song_Warden mentioned, is that people are reactionary. They don't care, or don't often even really understand what feedback is relevant and what isn't. The prompts they give us on the main thread are incredibly vague. If they start showing off intentional, drawn out PvP at all, for any reason, they'll get flooded with balancing feedback that might as well go straight in the bin cluttering up any actually useful feedback in the forum threads and on social media, which multiple employees are constantly having to comb through.

Sathrago

It doesnt have to be pvp for me, but it might help push steven to l2p or get someone who will keybind their spells so theres no standing around trying to click a skill in the middle of combat.

TheHiddenDaggerInn

When A 2 is released we will have every sort of PvP scenario you can dream of. Soon TM

Chicago

Sathrago wrote: »

It doesnt have to be pvp for me, but it might help push steven to l2p or get someone who will keybind their spells so theres no standing around trying to click a skill in the middle of combat.

Mate I 100% agree with you, not to sound rude to him, I love watching him play because he is so passionate about mmo,s and you can tell he is having alot of fun, but would be nice to watch someone else take the wheel for a change haha

Liniker

Yes, agree, would like if they had the devs make at least like 3 duels, showing both devs PoVs and Steven's outsider PoV on the third fight, shouldnt take more than 10 minutes for this would give a better look at the archetype in action

Songcaller

It would be cool to know about the hard counters for each class too.

Ludullu

Chicago wrote: »

For those that thing it's about seeing pvp or balancing, it's not, balancing is more about numbers and tuning, the reason I would like to see combat in a pvp environment is because it's hard to gauge anything on a target dummy, how skill shots could work, how each skill flows into another, how gcds look and if character lock animations are to much, I dont really care about who wins the duel or overall balancing but it's really hard to give good feedback when we are not seeing any real combat

How is seeing this against mobs any different?

We'll have all of this tweaked and changed a dozen times before even A2 releases, let alone full release. So what's the point of seeing it against a person now. Also, we literally saw Steven cancel out of whirlwind into a main and that shit looked smooth as fuck to me.

And as the main counterargument to this, when we saw ranger vs tank/cleric people concentrated on all the wrong things, saying that cleric is gimped, while others said he was still op, and some said that ranger is too op - BUT NOTHING OF THAT MATTERS. We won't have any "op" archetypes till beta1, at the earliest.

I'd much rather them show better pve, if they can, cause so far it's all been weak as fuck, and we'll spend WAAAAAY more time fighting mobs than people, so I'm more interested in how my archetype might look like during 95% of my gameplay, rather than the 5%.

Songcaller

I agree with the need for better pve. However, pvp is not 5% its more like 50% or greater. The whole point of the game is to get stronger for pvp.

Ludullu

Songcaller wrote: »

I agree with the need for better pve. However, pvp is not 5% its more like 50% or greater. The whole point of the game is to get stronger for pvp.

And how will you get stronger?

Will it not be pve, where you get all your gear or money for that gear? And will it not be pve that lets you get a higher lvl, which then makes you stronger in pvp?

Unless you have friends who can powerlvl you from lvl1 to lvlMax and give you the best gear in the game, all w/o you ever touching a single mob - you'll have more pve gameplay than pvp.

This is also even more true for anyone who's not a pvp fiend or is in a guild of pvp fiends, because outside of pvp events there's gonna be even less pvp.

Songcaller

I can't divulge guild plans. However, you can certainly get stronger with gear/resources/glint found on caravan raids etc. I don't consider quests as pve either. One would hope not all quests are kill quests because kill quests get old fast. Otherwise its grinding and defending the grind spots.

Ludullu

Songcaller wrote: »

I can't divulge guild plans. However, you can certainly get stronger with gear/resources/glint found on caravan raids etc.

How exactly do you plan to get gear out of caravans? Or do you mean "we get money from the caravan and buy gear that way"? But then I'd ask, how do you expect to win in pvp against defenders if you haven't partaken in pve beforehand?

Also, on the offchance that this strategy will somehow work out, I've already pointed out that I agree there'll be some pvp fiends that will do their best to bring the pvx ratio closer to pvp. Though it still remains to be seen how successful they'll be.

Songcaller wrote: »

I don't consider quests as pve either. One would hope not all quests are kill quests because kill quests get old fast. Otherwise its grinding and defending the grind spots.

Well, that's where our povs differ, cause to me anything that doesn't involve you interacting with another player is pve (cause E is environment, rather than just mobs), so even if there's a way to go through the game w/o touching a mob - to me that's still pve, as long as it doesn't include fighting people.

Songcaller

I meant you'd get resources from pvp to have gear crafted. Also, most gear will be crafted overall. I'm sure you could level in sieges if you assist killing the captains and npc guards (unless these give no experience). Sure, it might take a long time to level that way but participation at any level was a mantra for the sieges last I heard.

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