Level Distribution Over Time

Hello all!

New to forums and AoC and have tried to stay a "virgin" with AoC stuff so that when it comes out, nothing feels spoiled because I knew it was a thing already. I followed, very heavily, ESO development and turned out very disappointed in the final product so I don't really want to copy that here.

One question that I am curious how this game will tackle (if at all since most MMORPG's don't care and have a sort of "Sucks to suck" attitude alongside their playerbase), is level distribution over time.

Background: As I'm sure tons of people probably know already, any MMORPG on the market today is at least a few years old. This amount of time is more than long enough to see the vast majority of players at level cap and even their alts at level cap. What this means is, is that when a new player gets into any of these MMORPGs there is a severe amount of FOMO (except, in this case, it's more like STMO sad that you missed out). A lot of MMORPGs will throw out an expansion and it will renew some of the player base and maybe bring in new players, but for the most part the new player experience going into the game is vastly difference day 1, month 1, and year 1 in most any MMORPG.

Inquiry: The question is, what systems and elements of AoC are in place that might do the following?. . .
1. dissuade toxicity towards new players in the future for "being a noob" (FFIXV has the newbie leaf symbol for example).
2. encourage grouping with people of various levels so the world doesn't feel empty save for high lvl zones a year in.
3. Varied content to the leveling experience to encourage multiple characters (there's obviously a limit to this and repeat-content will be a thing).
4. Rewards/incentives for people to make new characters?
5. New player friendly UI/Combat that doesn't REQUIRE mods to be good at the game. (FFIXV having 0 mods compared to WoW requiring players to get 1000 mods.)

Personal Opinion(feel free to ignore haha): I think this is an issue with MMORPGs that people who have been in at day 1 and stick to the game never realize and, ultimately, creates the 1st point in the inquiry over the longevity of any MMORPG's lifespan. I'm always intrigued by games like Neverwinter which had player-made content (although poorly implemented) or ESO which had mass PVP very early on (although, the balancing became absurdly abhorrent to deal with). I by no means think that this is a "make or break" for any MMORPG, but they are games which encourage multiplayer gameplay.

Maybe a bit contrary to widespread belief, I don't believe anything in game development (video game or otherwise) exists without a foreseen or possibly unforeseen reason for its existing. What I fear is that if my wife & I end up really enjoying AoC when we get it on release, within 1-3months of said release, new players will become irrelevant and discouraging when I pressure my friends/family members to all join as well. That kind of word of mouth is incredibly healthy for exponential growth, but if the game's systems cause for delayed joiners to not enjoy the game as much as launch players - it will only detriment the game as a whole.

While WoW might be an obvious candidate to cherry pick here as to their poor new player experience, I think in my mind EVE Online is a better example. Incredibly dynamic, nuanced economy, rivaling player run factions that are all very much player made. However, if you have tried to get into it in the past decade, you missed the mark massively as it really just revolves around the 100k or so people who play it and have sort of made it a "cliquey" game.

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Kilivin

Personal proposition: I think, if I were to answer my own question on "how to accomplish this", I think this is something that comes down to original design. Is the level cap extremely high? Is it very fast to level up? Is it very slow to level up? Is solo-leveling as fun as leveling in a group? Is the player ever encouraged to get a group that would dishearten them when there is hardly anyone around their level? etc.

This doesn't really have anything to do with AoC, but as a point to what I mentioned that I believe all behaviors in games are designed (whether foreseen or unforeseen). I've always "Complained" to my wife when we jump into MMORPGs that I wish a game would make 4 tiers of play and you had 4 characters (1 to each tier). One character can get to lvl 5, one can get to lvl 10, one to lvl 15, and one to level 20. In order to advance your T4 char, you have to do some stuff on your t2 and t1 char. In this, whenever there are expansions, content can be added to all 4 tiers. This means when a new player comes in and lvls up his t1, 2, 3, or 4 character, the dungeons in the game can be centered around these "max lvl tier points" so there are always other players who have characters in that tier (though maybe a bit more beefed up than your lvl 10 character).

Not at all suggestion AoC do this, I more mean to highlight a point I made above that may be misunderstood.

Apok

1) Honestly as someone whose spent so long playing FFXIV, they are not a friendly community, the leaf program sticks you in a chat run by mentors which are some of the most toxic people in any MMO you'll see.

As a long time MMO player the only thing I see in a game that separates peoples attitudes towards one another is the difficulty of the game itself. more simple minded people will get phased out on tougher games and a higher percentage of players that stick around will have attitudes geared more towards working together and establishing friendly relations where the easier games tend to attract a lot of the shit heads.

FFXI had a way more respectable community then FFXIV

2) game in general has a large emphasis on group play, more so than current MMOs with trade routes and city building on top of your PvP and raids

3) Varied contact will mostly show itself in the way of a dynamic changing world

4) There no one character can master all the crafts so on top of playing different main archetypes you'll also have crafting mules if and when you get to that point

5) two things that are amazing about FFXIV; boss battles, and the UI system. I'm sure they'll try to add whatever systems they can for a good UI but I don't think you can compete with the FFXIV UI

CROW3

Heya! Welcome to the Ashes forums.

Here are my thoughts, but I really encourage you to take a look at the Wiki as well. Lex does an awesome job of keeping it up to date and well indexed.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/

Kilivin wrote: »

1. dissuade toxicity towards new players in the future for "being a noob" (FFIXV has the newbie leaf symbol for example).

Honestly, mmos are always going to have that ‘you’re a noob’ element - not unique to WoW or Ashes or any other game. However, the sheer amount of content in Ashes that not only encourages, but requires a team mentality, we have a better chance than other games to be new player friendly. As with other games, finding a good fitting guild will go a long way to help - and taking on some responsibility to be kind to new players yourself (& myself). This is one of those areas where Ashes will provide the tools, but we get to make it the community we want.

2. encourage grouping with people of various levels so the world doesn't feel empty save for high lvl zones a year in.

Community is a core pillar of Ashes, and the game is being fundamentally calibrated for groups. PvP, node dynamic, crafting, questing, and node-to-node interaction is all designed for teams working with (or in many examples against) other teams. Guilds will be a HUGE part of this game, and to access some of the core content. So if you like playing with other humans, Ashes provides some great opportunities for those moments.

3. Varied content to the leveling experience to encourage multiple characters (there's obviously a limit to this repeat-content will be a thing).

IMO this is a real strength of Ashes for one major reason: the node system. As it’s planned, the node system will provide an experience that will rarely feel repetitive. First, depending on where you start your alts may be on different sides of a VERY large world. So the nodes and the beginning quests will vary quite a bit. As the node advances, there are so many dimensions to the node, that it will be a unique experience. And that node’s particular attributes will determine a set of story arcs only that node may experience. So, I think you’ll find that alts on different nodes will have very different stories to tell.

4. Rewards/incentives for people to make new characters?

A lot of us are going to have a number of alts (possibly 8

). I think the archetype system will have enough to offer that many players will create alts just to experience the game from a completely different perspective and play style. The crafting system will also provide incentives for alts, since there are constraints on how many professions you can specialize in. That said, being alt friendly doesn’t always lead to friendly alts.

5. New player friendly UI/Combat that doesn't REQUIRE mods to be good at the game. (FFIXV having 0 mods compared to WoW requiring players to get 1000 mods.)

Ashes isn’t planning to support any player / community UI mods. The UI will be highly configurable to accommodate the myriad preferences players have for their setup.

Hope this is helpful.

Ludullu

Kilivin wrote: »

1. dissuade toxicity towards new players in the future for "being a noob" (FFIXV has the newbie leaf symbol for example).

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mentor_program
Guilds are more likely to be kind to newbies cause it's beneficial for them.

Kilivin wrote: »

2. encourage grouping with people of various levels so the world doesn't feel empty save for high lvl zones a year in.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nodes#Zones_and_progression
Due to how nodes work, mobs of all lvls will be close to each other, so players will come across one another across lvls as well.

We don't know if we'll have any type of content that involves both, the lowbies and the highbies, at the same time though (outside the siege machinery that is).

Kilivin wrote: »

3. Varied content to the leveling experience to encourage multiple characters (there's obviously a limit to this and repeat-content will be a thing).

4. Rewards/incentives for people to make new characters?

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Artisan_classes
You can only master 2 professions, so if you wanna do a ton of stuff all on one account - you need alts.

Kilivin wrote: »

5. New player friendly UI/Combat that doesn't REQUIRE mods to be good at the game. (FFIXV having 0 mods compared to WoW requiring players to get 1000 mods.)

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/User_interface
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Addons
UI will be highly customizable and no addons will be supported (allegedly).

bloodprophet

The sorry you missed out will happen for all of us because of the way nodes work. Something will happen and content will come and go often on the other side of the map or even the next node over. It may or may not still be there when you hear about it and get there.

Depraved

Kilivin wrote: »

Hello all!

New to forums and AoC and have tried to stay a "virgin" with AoC stuff so that when it comes out, nothing feels spoiled because I knew it was a thing already. I followed, very heavily, ESO development and turned out very disappointed in the final product so I don't really want to copy that here.

One question that I am curious how this game will tackle (if at all since most MMORPG's don't care and have a sort of "Sucks to suck" attitude alongside their playerbase), is level distribution over time.

Background: As I'm sure tons of people probably know already, any MMORPG on the market today is at least a few years old. This amount of time is more than long enough to see the vast majority of players at level cap and even their alts at level cap. What this means is, is that when a new player gets into any of these MMORPGs there is a severe amount of FOMO (except, in this case, it's more like STMO sad that you missed out). A lot of MMORPGs will throw out an expansion and it will renew some of the player base and maybe bring in new players, but for the most part the new player experience going into the game is vastly difference day 1, month 1, and year 1 in most any MMORPG.

Inquiry: The question is, what systems and elements of AoC are in place that might do the following?. . .
1. dissuade toxicity towards new players in the future for "being a noob" (FFIXV has the newbie leaf symbol for example).
2. encourage grouping with people of various levels so the world doesn't feel empty save for high lvl zones a year in.
3. Varied content to the leveling experience to encourage multiple characters (there's obviously a limit to this and repeat-content will be a thing).
4. Rewards/incentives for people to make new characters?
5. New player friendly UI/Combat that doesn't REQUIRE mods to be good at the game. (FFIXV having 0 mods compared to WoW requiring players to get 1000 mods.)

Personal Opinion(feel free to ignore haha): I think this is an issue with MMORPGs that people who have been in at day 1 and stick to the game never realize and, ultimately, creates the 1st point in the inquiry over the longevity of any MMORPG's lifespan. I'm always intrigued by games like Neverwinter which had player-made content (although poorly implemented) or ESO which had mass PVP very early on (although, the balancing became absurdly abhorrent to deal with). I by no means think that this is a "make or break" for any MMORPG, but they are games which encourage multiplayer gameplay.

Maybe a bit contrary to widespread belief, I don't believe anything in game development (video game or otherwise) exists without a foreseen or possibly unforeseen reason for its existing. What I fear is that if my wife & I end up really enjoying AoC when we get it on release, within 1-3months of said release, new players will become irrelevant and discouraging when I pressure my friends/family members to all join as well. That kind of word of mouth is incredibly healthy for exponential growth, but if the game's systems cause for delayed joiners to not enjoy the game as much as launch players - it will only detriment the game as a whole.

While WoW might be an obvious candidate to cherry pick here as to their poor new player experience, I think in my mind EVE Online is a better example. Incredibly dynamic, nuanced economy, rivaling player run factions that are all very much player made. However, if you have tried to get into it in the past decade, you missed the mark massively as it really just revolves around the 100k or so people who play it and have sort of made it a "cliquey" game.

its always a challenge for games to bring new players closer to old players. anyways:

1- define toxicity? also how would an indicator help? that would be telling people you are a newbie, so those who hate newbies now know you are one lol. judging by your post I think you mean toxicity = veteran players not wanting to party with newer players. if that's the case, this isn't toxic. no one should be mandated to party with anyone, and not doing so isn't toxic.

2- why? i mean I get it. some new players might have some difficulties completing some mandatory story dungeons without people of their levels, in this case then sure, or not have those type of dungeons xD. if the problem is the world feeling empty, there are other things you can do to avoid that that doesn't require partying with lower levels. ashes will already need us to go around lower level areas looking for mats and stuff. if older areas arent interesting for veteran players, why would they be there in the first place? the world will still feel empty to you. they arent going to hang there waiting for new players.
it also devolves into leeching. i don't wanna level a stranger while he alts tabs and watches a movie and I'm doing all the work and spending resources. getting less exp, less money, less loot. id do it for a friend I've known for yearstho, not for a stranger or someone I just met. if that's a common occurrence, means there's nothing to do for me at max level, which is a bigger problem.

3- I hate having to play alts. biggest reason I stopped playing lost ark even though I loved the game. i know some people like alts, but I don't wanna HAVE to play them. i mostly like focusing on one character.

4- why? see #3

5- game will have no mods already.

Kilivin wrote: »

Personal proposition: I think, if I were to answer my own question on "how to accomplish this", I think this is something that comes down to original design. Is the level cap extremely high? Is it very fast to level up? Is it very slow to level up? Is solo-leveling as fun as leveling in a group? Is the player ever encouraged to get a group that would dishearten them when there is hardly anyone around their level? etc.

This doesn't really have anything to do with AoC, but as a point to what I mentioned that I believe all behaviors in games are designed (whether foreseen or unforeseen). I've always "Complained" to my wife when we jump into MMORPGs that I wish a game would make 4 tiers of play and you had 4 characters (1 to each tier). One character can get to lvl 5, one can get to lvl 10, one to lvl 15, and one to level 20. In order to advance your T4 char, you have to do some stuff on your t2 and t1 char. In this, whenever there are expansions, content can be added to all 4 tiers. This means when a new player comes in and lvls up his t1, 2, 3, or 4 character, the dungeons in the game can be centered around these "max lvl tier points" so there are always other players who have characters in that tier (though maybe a bit more beefed up than your lvl 10 character).

Not at all suggestion AoC do this, I more mean to highlight a point I made above that may be misunderstood.

will take about 2 months on day 1. probably much faster to level an alt or as a new player after there are t 6 nodes. i hate the idea of having to go on alts btw.

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