Why we play solo - mmorpgs paradox

Gaf

Ashes better look into this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzwv6kDdD-M

cheers.

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Ludullu

No, it better not. Ashes is not trying to be a fully soloable game. You can play solo, but don't expect this to be WoW.

Azherae

If relevant, the video is actually a proper breakdown of nuance in this, for me at least.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

If relevant, the video is actually a proper breakdown of nuance in this, for me at least.

The og video, yes. Asmon mostly just says that all mmos definitely gotta have soloability, cause he hates people.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If relevant, the video is actually a proper breakdown of nuance in this, for me at least.

The og video, yes. Asmon mostly just says that all mmos definitely gotta have soloability, cause he hates people.

No, I'm really specifically saying that for the most part, Asmon's reactions are also nuanced and important for Ashes.

In fact, I think Asmon's 'takes' add something to this relative to the idea of Intrepid needing to care. Because Asmon is a reminder of what they are 'up against'. Now, they could decide 'no we don't care, we don't need to get Asmon or players like that in', but at least then they've decided outright.

I don't see any signs in their design that they've actually 'decided outright', yet.

Nerror

I think most of the questing in Ashes will be perfectly soloable, interspersed with a few group quests. That was my perception from A1 at least. They could have changed that direction obviously, but I haven't seen any signs of it. And obviously grinding XP and the artisan skills are doable solo as well, except maybe for processing you need friends or a guild. The story events are probably soloable too in the sense you don't need to join a group, you can just sort of tag along solo.

Even things like caravan pvp as a random defender or attacker, and node wars and node sieges, are solo content in the sense that sure, you might be part of a larger group against an enemy group, but you don't actively have to join and coordinate with a group.

You don't even need to group for a lot of BiS gear if you have the money. Maybe availability will be low to not available at first in the game until the big guilds are outfitted, but at some point they will start selling BiS gear too. It pretty much always happens.

I think solo players can experience most, but not all, of the game with the current design philosophy. Group/raid dungeons, castle sieges and naval content are probably the biggest exceptions.

Dygz

I mean...
Ashes is supposed to be balanced to need an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.
Alpha 1 definitely was not there yet.

Taleof2Cities

Ashes will have something for everyone.

Especially with the questing (as Nerror pointed out).

Just don’t expect it to be a solo RPG … or veer from the “Player Interaction” or “Risk vs. Reward” design pillars. Regardless of how many videos solo-centric streamers decide to make.

SirChancelot

One thing I've never understood about some MMO players, some people like in depth games and living breath worlds that a populated with more than NPCs... Doesn't mean they want to be social... Some people just like the games and don't want to be competitive.
I'm 100% for giving solo players content to do.

Laetitian

I haven't watched the 40 minute video. I watch this mainstream stuff sometimes, but only when I care enough.
I do not care about solo gameplay enough to listen to this, so if anyone could provide a summary, I would appreciate it!

Until then, here's my take after a decade of gameplay in games that encourage grouping:
Relying on a holy-trinity-like dynamic for efficiency in 90+% of the gameplay is super fun. It requires you to specialise and adapt your playstyle to the challenges of the moment created from tough encounters, and spontaneously changing group dynamics.

Solo gameplay is all about being able to handle everything the game throws at you without thinking about it.

Chatting with players, coming up with personal objectives and persuading others to pursue them with you encourage agency, meaningful gameplay, and skill expression that you can't get if there's a path of least resistance that requires zero coordination.

Why Ashes isn't pursuing that path more decisively is beyond me.

In response to "Something for everyone"/"Give solo players something to do" takes:
Sure. Just let them progress a third as fast as people who group effectively. So you always have something to do, you just have to ask yourself if you really hate dealing with other people (and their potential mistakes and disagreements) *that* much.

JamesSunderland

Nothing new under the sun with that one, the reasonable point stands, solo play being viable but nowhere near optimal.

RocketFarmer

Sometimes playing solo against difficult odds is much better than playing with a group that sucks.

Also, for some they have to get their gameplay in smaller bites due to real life.

You need sufficient content to keep a solo/casual player base involved from which to pull from and support your node. Not sure what that ratio is. Could be 2-to-1 solo to group player, 5-to-1 or as high as 10-to-1. And I’m sure that’s going to vary depending on what’s going on. Get a node war going and a lot of solo players will group up.

Good game design is to group because it’s more efficient. Don’t really need much more than that.

Aszkalon

Gaf wrote: »

Why we play solo - mmorpgs paradox

Not trying to be offensive here - but Please let me make it clear like this at least once in this Forum.

" F. U. C. K. - SOLO - PLAYER - Contents !!! "

The WoW-Machinina YouTuber " Nixxiom " made Fun of this once for a Sec', in his own, fleeting way.

Many,
many,
MANY Players want apparently to play an MMO as a " Solo/Single-Player Game " - " with a Lobby. "

I make this Mindset responsible for this overly toxic and arrogant "Atmosphere and Vibe" among many, MANY Worst of Warcraft-Players during the many Years. "ESPECIALLY" during Cataclysm during PvP-Sessions and later on in the Years after the Expansion Legion.

I am fully aware of the " Danger " of not being able to progress and possible Frustration when in Location ABC~XYZ in the Riverlands or anywhere else in the World of Verra,

we stand before a Goblin- Minotauer- Bandit- or whatever Camp and/or Base -> and we are unable to progress any further with One or several of our Quests,

because guess what -> ONE Person is not being able to defeat a whole Group of Individuals severely outnumbering said Person.

But i will never forget how " effortlessly " i managed to slaughter myself through ALL Open World Landscapes in Worst of Warcraft since Cataclysm and afterwards.

You know - when "Elite Mobs" in somewhat close Proximities in Area's became a thing of the Past.

When things like " Tyr's Hand " - " Pyrewood " - and other Area's from WoW Vanilla until Wrath of the Lichking, became a thing of the Past.

In Shadowlands - the "Fan-fiction Expansion" as People like me mockingly call it - > i could slaughter and butcher myself effortlessly through the whole Landscape of Korthia.

No Danger.
No Danger - whatsover.
No - Danger - at - all.

The only Challenge were a FEW Rare Elites on that Map. The whole remaining Content was Fodder.

Being honest over here,
if i can " SOLO " most of the World of Verra easily, with "never" running ANY Risk of dying when i make a Mistake or mess up, this would make the Game k~iiiiinda very boring.

Being Solo should be risky. It should add to the Risk versus Reward Mentality of the Game.

You would never need to share any Loot or Rewards with Others. But it should be FAAAR more dangerous. You should run serious Risk of dying and getting Minus-EXP-Punishments when you are not careful.

There are DOZENS of Single Player VideoGames out there. It is really annoying when every single MMO in the World is the same.

Dygz

Steven will also telly you there are dozens of Single-Player MMORPGs and...
Ashes is not of one of those.

Laetitian

RocketFarmer wrote:

Sometimes playing solo against difficult odds is much better than playing with a group that sucks.

Also, for some they have to get their gameplay in smaller bites due to real life.

I'm fully aware of that. I've been there. Logging on for 30 minutes and wasting 15 minutes establishing a group and barely getting anything before you log off.

But I still remember many times when I pulled off a fun spontaneous group on the fly, regardless of whether they lasted 30 minutes or 5 hours.
I have significantly fewer vivid memories of questing or overland XP farming sessions that I did solo.

And I'm a serious introvert, I don't like forcing my requests or ideas on other people or having spontaneous conversation. It's just that content involving other people is that much more dynamic and you get to push your ability more because there are more things to keep track of, and more eventualities to consider. Do you trust your new group member to have your back and push a little further, or do you move more slowly in order to play things safe for now? Making and adjusting those decisions as you get to know each other's ability is fun.

I'd also argue that many of you don't realise how attainable and enjoyable player coordination in a group-centric MMO can be because when you play a solo-friendly MMO, the people you're trying to recruit for a shared objective aren't alert/attentive enough to consider taking you up on the offer, cause everyone is tunnelvisioned on their solo stuff whenever they're not in a dungeon or talking to their established guild.

In games where there's no convenient yet highly rewarding path available for everyone, everyone will be more willing to look for people willing to group and pursue a shared objective in order to work together for higher efficiency and bigger rewards.
Not constantly available or interested, of course. But more available and attentive than in a game with automated anonymous L4G tools and content intended to be solo'd.
And if you're not in the mood, you can still ignore them or ask them their agenda and say no if your plans don't align.

It's also not like you have to hard-commit to one or the other. You can ask around for people to join you as you're doing solo stuff.

Every once in a while you'll group with someone and move to their location only for them to leave before you get going, and your 30 minute session will be wasted. Or they play like a child (sometimes because it turns out they are one) and you have to try and hand-hold them to get anything done.
But it's not like you would have made a ton of progress soloing in that time. You have to view those incidents in the bigger picture compared to the times when it took you 5 minutes to group up and make 50% more XP for the rest of your session.

Frankly, these are the moments I play MMOs for, so I think anything that gets in the way of maximising the frequency of these moments is the real waste of everyone's time.

Swifty00

If you look at the server sizes. The plan is to have about 100 players per node online concurrently. Obviously, if you are off peak that will be lower, but my feeling is that there will be plenty of people around to group with.

Obviously, if you are planning something a little out of the ordinary, then you may have to plan ahead, but I think it is going to be more like real life. You will get to know the people who live around you and you will live somewhere with people who like to do the same things. You are going to get to know people with common goals at least at the node level.

Saabynator

I dont see the problem with soloing, there can be tons of stuff you want to do solo. Or just want to do something for an hour, or till your friends come on. Gather resources, look for treasures, farm some regular mobs - whatever. But as I undestand it, Stevens vision is not to make solo dungeons and all that. The best and hardest content is group content, and thats how it is. I personally think thats great. A solo oriented MMO would have to be a completely different class design and so on.

iccer

The game has to have solo content.

You cannot expect players to always be in a group.

It's not just about leveling, it's about things you do every day when you log in. Whether it's some sort of a daily quest, gathering, solo open-world farming, just playing the game, or whatever, has to be doable on your own.

The game shouldn't force you to group up for everything. It should come naturally and randomly, or for things that are important (whether for progression in terms of gear, or in general).
You need a group to participate in X, you need a group to get Y, or you need a group to complete/challenge Z, etc.

Whether it's a dungeon, world boss, caravan, raid?, siege, or whatever else the game has to offer. It's obvious that these things should require a group.

But the thing with that is, this is not what you're going to spend a majority of your time doing in game.
You are not going to do dungeons and world bosses the entire time, you're not going to run caravans the entire day, you're not going to siege every day. So there needs to be solo content in between all of that, to actually engage players.
You need something that you can do on your own, where you don't have to depend on others. And maybe while you're doing that, an opportunity comes to group up (a world boss spawns, maybe there's a PK party roaming around killing people, etc.). You know, a "natural" opportunity to group up with people around you (or to call in friends/guildies).

There absolutely should be content in the open-world, that you can just stumble upon, and not be able to do alone. Enemy camps with stronger enemies that maybe have a quicker respawn rate, elite mobs, events, etc. But the thing is, these things need to be rewarding. Nowadays in many games, you have "elite mobs", that are soloable, and give shit rewards. You have events (GW2 - I'm looking at you), that give shit rewards, so you have to spam these events every day, every few hours.
These things should be very hard/impossible to solo, but at the same time, they should offer good rewards, in order to incentivize actually grouping up for it, rather than just ignoring it because rewards are not worth the time.
Also one important thing is to not have a set timer for these events. For example in many games, you have events/bosses that spawn at a certain time, every x amount of hours, etc. I feel that this just makes the game feel like a job, that you have to play on a schedule etc. It's much more enjoyable when spawns are randomized, when you just stumble upon an elite/boss, or an event and just randomly group up with people nearby.
Obviously, larger and more important stuff like sieges should have a schedule, but it should be avoided for most things.

In my opinion, "mandatory" grouping should only be done for large events, like world bosses, sieges, or if you want to run some dungeons. Because this requires coordination between a few people, sometimes you need to wait for people, you can't just do anything you want and run off wherever you want to, so you need to plan for it ahead of time.
I want an option to not have to plan ahead and group for stuff on some days, sometimes I just don't have enough time, and I want to play for a couple of hours by myself, and do random stuff, a bit of everything if you will, rather than a specific dungeon or a few dungeon runs, that would take the same amount of time.

Aszkalon

I have an Idea.

We could have something like "Safer Sea's" as a Game Mode. ( hrhrhrhrhr )

You can play the whole Open World of Verra "SOLO" in that Mode. But the Items you get are incredibly weak compared to what you get when you play everything as a Multi-Player Experience.

Aszkalon

iccer wrote: »

The game has to have solo content.

You cannot expect players to always be in a group.

The Question is : is a FULL Camp of Enemy Minotaurs, Bandits, Goblins - or whatever else is there, viewed as Solo Content ?
Because You can do this in Worst of Warcraft.

You can almost effortlessly butcher yourself through all Content there is, while being on an equal Level with the Mobs you are fighting.

It wasn't always like this. A loooooooong time ago, you needed to put in SERIOUS Preparation and had Knowledge over the Mobs you were going to fight, if you wanted to attack an Enemy Position like Tyr's Hand in WoW Vanilla alone,

or "Pyrewood" in Silverpine Forest when You were around the Level Range of LvL 14 to 19. Because at "Night", all these Villagers of Pyrewood turned into Werewo- "WORGEN" i mean. They were not hostile to You at Day when You were an Alliance Player - but that changed over Night.

And guess what. It was AWESOME !!

When You can " Solo " all of the Open World with Exception of World Bosses and a few Questmobs or so, then You can solo most of the Game. And this is not good for Player social Ability. It is better when People need to team up. When they are "forced" to team up. You just appreciate your fellow Players more.

iccer

Aszkalon wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

The game has to have solo content.

You cannot expect players to always be in a group.

The Question is : is a FULL Camp of Enemy Minotaurs, Bandits, Goblins - or whatever else is there, viewed as Solo Content ?
Because You can do this in Worst of Warcraft.

You can almost effortlessly butcher yourself through all Content there is, while being on an equal Level with the Mobs you are fighting.

It wasn't always like this. A loooooooong time ago, you needed to put in SERIOUS Preparation and had Knowledge over the Mobs you were going to fight, if you wanted to attack an Enemy Position like Tyr's Hand in WoW Vanilla alone,

or "Pyrewood" in Silverpine Forest when You were around the Level Range of LvL 14 to 19. Because at "Night", all these Villagers of Pyrewood turned into Werewo- "WORGEN" i mean. They were not hostile to You at Day when You were an Alliance Player - but that changed over Night.

And guess what. It was AWESOME !!

When You can " Solo " all of the Open World with Exception of World Bosses and a few Questmobs or so, then You can solo most of the Game. And this is not good for Player social Ability. It is better when People need to team up. When they are "forced" to team up. You just appreciate your fellow Players more.

If this is meant to be an argument against my point, then I don't think you got my point, because I absolutely do agree with what you wrote.

I mean, I've played a WoW clone before, and it was fun stumbling upon an elite/boss out there, and having to group up to take it down. Also, it was fun going into higher level areas, and trying to kill mobs there. Experience gain was much better, but it was also a much bigger challenge.

And while I agree with your point, I also think this shouldn't be the norm, not all open-world content should be like this. Areas of higher challenge mobs, triggered by events, or just areas that are always like that, areas that might require a group should be present, but so should be stuff that you can do solo, relatively easily. Obviously, the rewards should scale accordingly. The 2 can coexist, it's not one or the other.

You cannot expect to have to level up by always being in a group, but you definitely should have to if you want to level up faster/more efficient (by killing higher difficulty mobs, or something similar, and if you want better rewards - better gold gain, rare drops, or whatever).

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