Weapons seem redundant beyond combat style

Long story short. I've watched melee classes and ranged classes. I have seen the combat iterations and I've seen the class changes.

Weapons are redundant because you do not need a good weapon. You can currently max stats dye to the amount of armour slots and accessory slots. Weapon skill trees are lacklustre and the basic attack is a pittance. Not sure how the situation has occurred but I noticed the trend after the devs said stats will have soft caps.

Therefore, I do not see the need to min max a weapon. It is similar to paladin in bg3. You can have the crappest weapons but Divine smite doesn't increase off weapon, it increases off level.

Right now, I do not even believe the combat team understands combat. Every iteration is an improvement which shows the lack of cohesive application.

It is even debatable whether armour needs to be levelled and enchanted. Though as I said before the armour and accessory slots would be ample to min max.

I haven't touched sfx on the weapons and armour though. I have focussed on the general application I have seen since 2017.

Any thoughts to add?

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Laetitian

I'd say it's really hard, perhaps impossible, to tell for now. It depends on mana costs and cooldowns for abilities. Have we seen rare gear yet to see what the difference could be?
I also haven't been able to distinguish from the streams what percentage of the damage comes from base attacks versus abilities.

And perhaps the biggest point: Even if base attack damage does constitute a relatively low percentage of total damage output (something I personally prefer for most class balance questions):
How can you tell from just watching how much of the *ability* damage is improved from equipment stats - or could be, if the player was wearing stronger equipment?
The weapon doesn't necessarily have to be a massive amount of your damage output in a order to be worthwhile item to work for.

And if your complaint is specifically that the choice between sword and hammer or even wand won't make a big enough impact on your damage output: People will still prefer the weapon that works best for their playstyle, even if the change in damage output from the weapon type itself is only few percent. And if there's a Warrior maining a legendary wand because it gives him the biggest stat boosts, more power to him, that sounds hilarious as a rare edge case.

It's definitely a worthwhile point to bring up though, and Alpha testers should test rare equipment sets versus average ones and give feedback on whether the rare stuff feels sufficiently impactful to justify the effort of looting/crafting it.

Halae

As I recall, Steven said that equipment should make up roughly 40% of your overall power at the level cap. We'll have to see how true that holds.

Songcaller

Hmm. I am aware of the 40-50% power differential. I even worked out current power gain through 1 to 50 and from basic tier to legendary tier. Later my calculations were confirmed on the livestream. I only made the calculations based on max stats at max level with full legendary gear - not specific gear or class build. 🤔

Azherae

Can you clarify your expectation then?

And do you specifically dislike the concept that perhaps your weapon might be the last part of your build that you put effort into, in a min-max sense?

If anything, I could see this being a good thing, since, if most of your power is spread over multiple gear pieces that must be upgraded, it keeps the power gaps much narrower in some ways, as opposed to the 'I just leveled my weapon because all I really need is DPS, right?' that we have seen in some other games before.

Laetitian

Songcaller wrote:

Later my calculations were confirmed on the livestream

What specifically did you learn on the stream that confirmed your equipment tier calculations?

Songcaller

The exact thread and words escape me, however, the q and a section was used for clarification. Steven said something like 50% of max and not 50% per each level.

Songcaller

Azherae wrote: »

Can you clarify your expectation then?

And do you specifically dislike the concept that perhaps your weapon might be the last part of your build that you put effort into, in a min-max sense?

If anything, I could see this being a good thing, since, if most of your power is spread over multiple gear pieces that must be upgraded, it keeps the power gaps much narrower in some ways, as opposed to the 'I just leveled my weapon because all I really need is DPS, right?' that we have seen in some other games before.

I would remove soft caps and instead create hard caps. Much akin to DCUO and all of the enhancements available there. When I first saw the inventory slots I thought 'the toons will be very powerful at max level and fully geared like l2' then the combat iterations changed. I think you should min max all attributes to be max power and not simply put on 4 identical rings.

Azherae

Songcaller wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Can you clarify your expectation then?

And do you specifically dislike the concept that perhaps your weapon might be the last part of your build that you put effort into, in a min-max sense?

If anything, I could see this being a good thing, since, if most of your power is spread over multiple gear pieces that must be upgraded, it keeps the power gaps much narrower in some ways, as opposed to the 'I just leveled my weapon because all I really need is DPS, right?' that we have seen in some other games before.

I would remove soft caps and instead create hard caps. Much akin to DCUO and all of the enhancements available there. When I first saw the inventory slots I thought 'the toons will be very powerful at max level and fully geared like l2' then the combat iterations changed. I think you should min max all attributes to be max power and not simply put on 4 identical rings.

Ok but none of that stuff would be ready yet, right?

We don't even know which of the methods they intend to use for the damage scalars/power growth on weapons, because the weapon skilltrees aren't those types of thing.

I know that you've seen this done at least a dozen different ways in all the games you've played, I'm trying to figure out which one you were expecting from Ashes. As example:

Obviously with my bias I originally thought they were going to use the 'Weapon has a known base damage value and then an additional damage range based on some build aspects'. Then when the Weapon Focus Gauge got scrapped(?) I figured they would go the 'Base Damage with Multipliers for skills' style, and now I'm seeing the MOBA type 'weapon damage is distinct but weapon skilltree options have multipliers' occasionally.

To me, none of these options make weapons 'redundant', not even the last one, it just depends on what stats the weapon itself grants. We can't know how 'enhancements' work because they're not that far in yet.

Songcaller

Yeah, I believe the weapons are redundant because of the merge between inherent stats and the emergent stats.

There does not seem to be a multiplier on basic damage, only on critical damage. The base stat here could be weapon damage, however, let's say 80 was max strength and the basic sword is 8, then it would be easier to get to 80 through the other slots than try to get a legendary weapon to +15 enchantment to reach 80 alone. The reason is manifold because you could max 3, 4 or 5 stats without touching the level 1 sword.

arkileo

Songcaller wrote: »

Hmm. I am aware of the 40-50% power differential. I even worked out current power gain through 1 to 50 and from basic tier to legendary tier. Later my calculations were confirmed on the livestream. I only made the calculations based on max stats at max level with full legendary gear - not specific gear or class build. 🤔

Can you elaborate on these calculations and your sources? Have we seen the stats of a level 50 wearing legendary tier gear?

Songcaller

Can't you use the search function? I am in the pub and could do the search, however, I'd rather not highlight the huge debate between old veterans on the topic.

Azherae

Songcaller wrote: »

Yeah, I believe the weapons are redundant because of the merge between inherent stats and the emergent stats.

There does not seem to be a multiplier on basic damage, only on critical damage. The base stat here could be weapon damage, however, let's say 80 was max strength and the basic sword is 8, then it would be easier to get to 80 through the other slots than try to get a legendary weapon to +15 enchantment to reach 80 alone. The reason is manifold because you could max 3, 4 or 5 stats without touching the level 1 sword.

Right but there are systems to handle even that. I think I've explained before that the FFXI weapon damage calculation has a specific clamp where the weapon itself has a value that caps how much your STR/Power can 'feed into' it actually doing extra damage.

So if you pick up a level 1 Sword in that game, the 'amount of your STR stat that is actually being converted to damage' is less. The same thing (indirectly) happens in MOBA style itemization. So I don't think there's any grounds to assume it.

In fact, I think I know more games that do it in some roundabout 'clamping' way than games that don't. So while I can see the possibility of Ashes being the latter, I don't think even the screenshot you just gave actually implies that.

However I definitely concede that the information in that screenshot is hella weird...

Songcaller

Hmm. So you think a level 1 sword will do less damage than a level 5 sword at max stack? Level is actually the wrong word, instead I will call it rank - basic to legendary. Would the usual clamps still apply between the ranks or do you believe like I do that a level 50 weapon is only required to hit like a level 50 with the stats on the gear giving the overall power. I realise a legendary weapon may have additional phenomena attached but even so, why push to +15 enchantment even in such a case? 🤔

Azherae

Songcaller wrote: »

Hmm. So you think a level 1 sword will do less damage than a level 5 sword at max stack? Level is actually the wrong word, instead I will call it rank - basic to legendary. Would the usual clamps still apply between the ranks or do you believe like I do that a level 50 weapon is only required to hit like a level 50 with the stats on the gear giving the overall power. I realise a legendary weapon may have additional phenomena attached but even so, why push to +15 enchantment even in such a case? 🤔

In my experience the enchantment's purpose is to provide some other roundabout way of gaining power relative to your goals, rather than raw damage aspects, it's just that the power types are those that a player could associate with 'weapon' instead of, as you said, something like 'Rings'. For people who are used to BDO or something, it would be normal for Rings to somehow raise Attack, but for others, they wouldn't be expecting anything that meaningfully raises damage (directly) from Jewelry.

I don't know what to expect yet, it's a wide world of MMORPG designs, I'm just saying that I've seen so many ways of handling this, that I wouldn't think of it as representing what you said.

However, now that I've looked through stuff again, with your screenshot in mind, I think I tentatively agree with you, so you can assume I'm 'speculatively' on your 'side' now, for whatever that's worth. Even if enchanting your weapon is the last thing one does, or even if it's not worth too much effort to do it, the current system seems like a stretch.

It could all just be placeholder though. And even if it isn't, bringing it up at this point, especially since most people aren't tracking it as closely as you are, probably won't lead to much...

Songcaller

As usual I just dream and record thoughts. At present my build is legendary medium armour, legendary rings, basic weapon. That's not going to stand in the live game though because I've highlighted the fact medium armour is the best at the time and the others are pointless and i have done the same with the weapons. In theory, and yes, the thread is theory, I could run a bard in such manner and have little worries. Same with a Cleric and a Tank. Strange tides come with the Amber flow. 😉

arkileo

Songcaller wrote: »

Can't you use the search function? I am in the pub and could do the search, however, I'd rather not highlight the huge debate between old veterans on the topic.

Search came up empty. What am I searching for? I'd like to be caught up on this topic

Songcaller

Okay. Will bling some key phrases. Hold the line.

Edit: it is a long 28 page thread. I think I found it though:

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56343/the-case-for-gear-to-provide-more-than-40-50-of-a-characters-power/p27

ReLamas

You bring up a very interesting point about the perceived redundancy of weapons in the current combat system. This issue highlights a broader concern in MMORPGs: the balance between vertical and horizontal progression. While vertical progression (increasing stats and power levels) is essential, horizontal progression (offering diverse and meaningful choices that allow for different playstyles and builds) is equally, if not more, important.

Horizontal progression enriches the game by providing a variety of viable options for players to explore, creating a more dynamic and engaging experience. This approach also enhances the late-game content, as players can experiment with different builds and strategies instead of just focusing on chasing the highest stats. The current state of weapon importance might need re-evaluation to ensure that weapons play a meaningful role in combat, not just as stat sticks but as integral parts of a player’s identity and strategy.

The combat team could explore ways to make weapons and armor more impactful in a horizontal sense, perhaps by tying specific abilities, passives, or unique effects to certain weapons or armor pieces. This could encourage players to choose their gear based not only on stats but also on the unique advantages they provide, thus enhancing both the depth and the fun of the game.

Sathrago

Weapons seem to be able to set up combos or synergize with your class in certain ways. Aside from that it doesnt seem to cost anything, which will be extremely valuable in a game where everyone needs mana to use their skills.

A perfect example of this is a passive from wands. They have built in combinations that work off the target being burned, shocked, or conflagrated. They can also apply some of these effects. I also believe that classes will also be able to apply these effects. Namely the mage, but i expect anything taking mage as a subclass, summoners, and maybe even clerics will have some ways to also apply these effects.

So here you can apply burning with the wand, then set up combust causing the target to conflagrate which seems to be an enhanced damage over time debuff.
This sounds like a great way to quickly get conflagrate rolling on a target without spending mana on other spells to apply burning.
You also could do this instead.

If you bring the electrifying one instead of the burning one, you can more easily apply shock.

I expect there will be more combinations and more interesting choices down the line, but the utility of the weapons are definitely being made and already there.

Now they may not be directly calculated heavily into all aspects of your character, but I expect they will carry a large amount of useful stats required for you to do your role properly. I dont expect there will be skills that directly scale with the damage per swing or damage number of the actual weapon. I could be wrong but we shall see.

Songcaller

Yeah mate, you highlight the best as usual but I stated I am not focussed on phenomena much like the usage. All you need right now is a basic fire wand or a basic wind wand at the relevant level and simply stat stuff your other items equipped. There is a complete demarcation between tool and utility. The weapons do provide utility but what is the urge to upgrade the tool?

A perfect example comes from Rogue in bg3. My weapons only do 1-9 damage offhand and 1 - 11 damage main hand but stealth attack and stealthed ranged attack does 20-40 damage plus crit.

Child Item