Stat Calculations

In most MMO's you are discovering in secret how each stat works and the calculations through which to gain an advantage and sometimes sharing those calculations to the public. While this knowledge is important and pivotal the information is sometimes very unobvious, misleading or unshared. I don't know if others would agree but I would like to see a little more depth in explanation of stats and the true effects they have on us. When we are calculating, we as players know the obvious like dexterity is the main stat to physical accuracy and the calculations for physical accuracy. The issue I have is while that is true what are the calculations for how [stat x] impacts [stat y] statistically. Ex. Physical Mitigation and its impact on physical penetration. What are stat caps? What are the TRUE relationships between these stats? While these two stats may have no correlation, I am trying to make the point of stat effects on each other, on gear, on skills and how to calculate these. Is the stat additive or is it going off of the base stat? I like some of the calculations shown with some current spells but would appreciate more clarity.

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Ace1234

Agreed, I can't stand when info is ambiguous just for the sake of it. Its fine if its fun to figure things out, but sometimes its just a grind to get basic info which is lame imo.

Obviously there is a discussion to be had about what info should or shouldn't be available to the player, but if it is intended info, then it should either be clearly stated or fun to discover.

Ruerik

I do wish they would tell us these sorts of things, since I plan to extensively test this once we reach phase3 of the alpha. Knowing the formula is kind of key when developing certain types of builds to play with.

All it really takes is a couple guys with access to different classes and gear to smack each other for several hours, and then a few days to just throw the log through python and curve fit. The time comes from guessing what type of function each stat has, or which ones interact with each other.

It will be harder to find bugs without knowing the true functional forms. Which may or may not be intentional from intrepid.

George_Black

Agreed.
ESO stats are an example of bad design, in which max MP would contribute to dmg output. Some of the stats were even hidden from your character info

Here is also a list of dmg types, all of which were mandatory to every single player, resulting in character build changes every months, due to devs tweaking them:
1) Physical damage (call weapon damage for some random reason and Magic damage. Eventually they became one.
2) Crit rate. Yes, with critical reaching between 70% to 90% for almost every character, you had to balance out your crit rate and consider it as DMG because it affected your output.
3) Critical dmg
4) Penetration
5) Max MP/Max Stamina dmg contribution

Five sources of dmg competing with each other. You lower one to increase the other and the whole thing was basically a math calculation every 3 months. Unnecessary.

There was other types of dmg as well:
Poison dmg
Disease dmg
Fire dmg
Frost dmg
Holy dmg
Physical dmg (not to be confused with weapon dmg, which weapon dmg stat wasnt related to actual weapons.....)
Shock dmg
Magical dmg (not to be... same as above...)
True dmg
Execution dmg
Poison item dmg (......)

A whole new set of dmg stats to consider in making your output stronger.

Other forms of damage came from active skills that had to be slotted for their passive boost, even though nobody used them for active gameplay. What a joke.

And then we had 3 forms of sustain:
Stamina/MP regeneration
Stamina/MP cost reduction
Max Stamina/Max MP (which contributed to dmg). "Which one will be the best this cycle? Maximise it, delete the other two."

Needless to say that all these stats are not tied to anything visual.
Penetration dmg did not come from skills and gameplay involving Blunt weapons.
Critical dmg/rate did not involve rogues.
All these were just invisible numbers. A massive unnecessary selection. A chore to calculate stats which do not change your active gameplay, only the maths behind it.

Some consider these calculations fun or proof of smarts. Maybe they should apply their love of that to something that gets them paid instead of a part of gaming.

Some consider it the edge in competitive gaming. That's only because the Devs allowed for such a mess. The Devs could also prevent it, and it would make no difference to the top players fighting other top players.
Only that the rest of the playerbase would not have to wonder why their chars are all of a sudden so weak, or ask what do the youtubers say this cycle?
They would just go about enjoying their ingame time without having to invest time to nonsense.

I am all for simplified stats. I am pro active gameplay. Active skills. Let players try to figure out their characters cooldowns, costs and skill impact through ingame practice.
Let them build their hotbar to respond to any surprising scenario or enemy, both pve and pvp. Without having to swap builds all the time, rendering them vulnerable to the combined, true open world mmo challenges.

Murdach

I dont need simplified stats (I dont care either way, but I prefer multiple ways of reaching a goal). What I DO NEED is in-depth stat explanations/tooltips, and some type of in-game stat calculator. My preference for stat calculators is to have green/red indicators for when a stat goes up or down. I would appreciate the stat calculations to be shown on a character sheet. I would also like a way to possibly show that in the UI (in case of multiple buffs/debuffs during combat.

The reason I would like all of this is specifically because I have played too many games that SAID a certain stat did a certain thing, but a bug or bad calculations caused something different to happen, or garnered different stat output. When we can see the calculations, then it is easy to point out the discrepancies. When the calculations are hidden, it takes an internet theory-crafter + mathematician to point out that the numbers dont add up.

Ebonborn

I think they are on the right track with stat definitions and the images of the stat explanations(if this is the start).

Ace1234

I think the problem happens when games try to explain things too concisely, which then leaves too much room for misinterpretation. Im fine with having to read a little more if it saves me the frustration of misinterpreting info that is meant to be clearly communicated.

arkileo

I really hate when a game, for example, has this for the strength tooltip: "Increases physical damage dealt," and then Dexterity: "Increases critical strike chance." But neither says how much they increase them, so you have no way of making an informed decision about which is actually better.

I'd like to have enough information to make a decision I feel confident about, but I also think there's room for hiding things like threat calculations, so long as there's some kind of indicator of your threat level, even if it's just green-yellow-red.

BigSwordBro

theres always a massive manual/guide section in each mmorpg that nobody looks at cause it has useless stuff like "when u die, u respawn at the priest in town".

instead should have an entire section like the OP stated with clear explanations for skills and calculations.

Ebonborn

@arkileo so instead of just the definition you would be attaching the current percentage increase of critical strike chance you have with gear, and it can adjust to buffs as well?

Ebonborn

@BigSwordBro EXACTLY, sometimes I see it in game's but even then, it isn't providing the depth necessary to understand the calculations.

Myosotys

Im fine with let’s tell 10-20% of opacity. Giving 100% of the detailed formulas is risking to have the exact same builds over and over.
So I don’t think devs should reveal everything.

arkileo

Ebonborn wrote: »

@arkileo so instead of just the definition you would be attaching the current percentage increase of critical strike chance you have with gear, and it can adjust to buffs as well?

Yes. I'm not necessarily asking for the exact formula, just the quantitative facts of what a stat change actually does.

Ruerik

Myosotys wrote: »

Im fine with let’s tell 10-20% of opacity. Giving 100% of the detailed formulas is risking to have the exact same builds over and over.
So I don’t think devs should reveal everything.

Different builds shine in different places. I would not expect to find a one build performs top everywhere.

Myosotys

Taerrik wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Im fine with let’s tell 10-20% of opacity. Giving 100% of the detailed formulas is risking to have the exact same builds over and over.
So I don’t think devs should reveal everything.

Different builds shine in different places. I would not expect to find a one build performs top everywhere.

It’s clear that builds are situational we agree on that. But it doesn’t change anything to me statement.

Ebonborn

@Myosotys I agree I think even 90% clarity and that room for 10% still allows for variability and less complexity to solving the statistical portions. Examples of variation would be the secondaries, builds, and certain spells countering one another allows for variability past a statistical standpoint.

Ruerik

Just knowing the detailed formula wont change anything. You wont see the exact same builds over and over so long as stats are not overly simplified.

At least, my hope is the system is complex enough you can build your character one way or another of a dozen ways. One will be the numerical champion in a situation sure, but the others can also be good enough to fill a role the party needs.

Azherae

Clarity + Diversity is always better than 'Mystery' + Simplicity/low Variety, for me.

And my tolerance for 'Mystery + Diversity' is way higher than nearly everyone I know... so...

At least TL tier transparency on stats please.

Ebonborn

@Azherae I actually think Throne and Liberty does a poor job of representing what I would consider clarity. TL has the spell Cursed Nightmare which has 80% chance of sleep and the "Hit" stat increases cc effects by a %. However, before the spell can ever have a chance of sleeping the target, the "Hit" stat is considered separately. Meaning even if you increase your sleep chance to 100% it doesn't matter because hit comes first. No one would ever know this without extensive testing of sleep and hit and realizing that one does not affect the other in the way that you think. This in my eyes is an overcomplication of the stats and their association

Azherae

Ebonborn wrote: »

@Azherae I actually think Throne and Liberty does a poor job of representing what I would consider clarity. TL has the spell Cursed Nightmare which has 80% chance of sleep and the "Hit" stat increases cc effects by a %. However, before the spell can ever have a chance of sleeping the target, the "Hit" stat is considered separately. Meaning even if you increase your sleep chance to 100% it doesn't matter because hit comes first. No one would ever know this without extensive testing of sleep and hit and realizing that one does not affect the other in the way that you think. This in my eyes is an overcomplication of the stats and their association

I'm not saying it's clear in general, but I can say that was clear to me immediately.

Because I've been playing RPGs for so long, that I am used to 'chance to actually affect opponent' and 'chance to apply effect' being separate. Most people who have ever played like... Pokemon... will generally understand that.

But at least in TL if you go into the advanced/additional info in the menu, it tries to make it clear for you, to the point where if you 'thought it might be A, or B', it's enough information to know which one it is.

That might require more experience than I thought, though...

Nonetheless, sure, if not even TL's advanced tooltips are clear enough for most people, then we must go further!

Xeeg

Ebonborn wrote: »

What are stat caps? What are the TRUE relationships between these stats? While these two stats may have no correlation, I am trying to make the point of stat effects on each other, on gear, on skills and how to calculate these. Is the stat additive or is it going off of the base stat? I like some of the calculations shown with some current spells but would appreciate more clarity.

100% this

Secret hidden formulas that only some players figure out through weeks/month of testing and documenting is lame AF.

I want to know that +5 crit actually means +5 to your already 24 crit, and there is a crit chance cap of 75% at +200 crit. You can crit through parry but not dodge, which straight reduces the 75% crit chance cap. blah blah blah...

Fumbling around in these games just picking stuff that is USELESS because you are already capped out or there are diminishing returns, but no one knows, is just frustrating.

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