Loot System Changes

Everything from the combat to design was incredible, proving AoC worthy of the true next gen MMO title claim with some minor adjustments needed but I was truly disappointed when I saw the loot system at the end.

I don’t know much about how the need or greed system in this game works but I’ve had both extremely negative to decent experiences across 2 games that share this honor system - Everquest 2 (negative) and Final Fantasy XIV (decent).

Starting with the worst, EQ2 - I ultimately quit the game due to people playing classes like Tank who would roll need on some of the rarest Mage gear that I actually needed. This is incredibly frustrating when allowed and a huge hit to player morale especially when it happens regularly. During the looting phase of the dragon in this preview someone even makes a joke “need, need, need” but this is truly what happens! Whether it’s due to people not understanding that their class doesn’t need the item, needing for an alt or just spiteful, bashing them in the community is simply not enough to deter it. Preventing these types of toxic players from ruining the game for others requires intervention from the devs to put some looting rules in place.

On the other hand is FFXIV - Only the class you are currently playing can need on gear for that class type and if you already have the item, you cannot need. This was a HUGE improvement and made me feel like “I’ll get it next time” rather than “I’ll never get this thing, give up”.

My favorite loot system is Elder Scrolls Online - Everyone gets their own loot! Party members in dungeons / raids can trade or sell their loot to other party members that completed the content for up to an hour after completion. I have yet to find a more rewarding system than this.

To wrap this up, I will never go back to the EQ2 loot system, no matter how great the game looks and plays - it’s a hard NO. I truly hope you amazing devs see this feedback and consider leaning more towards the FFXIV loot model and implement some protections against toxic looting.

Thank you to the dev team for all of your hard work, the passion in this project is very much appreciated!

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Comments

Otr

There will be more looting mechanics

Free-for-all.
Lootmaster.
Round-robin.
Need or greed

Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting
Play in a guild and have less uncertainty.

Crivel

Otr wrote: »

Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.

That is not a good thing

A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.

rollox

The problem with need or greed is either inexperienced players. And players that has become grinders who are grind conditioned to just click a button, any button, to get this damn pop up off my screen

In need or greed I suspect that maybe 15-20% of the need clicks are just mistakes or being oblivious to what your clicking on because you didn't read the pop up. You see a yellow item and click need...

And make an enemy for life when your tank wins the clothe robes of everlasting mana with ice affinity. Bound to player item.

There is no amount of explaining that I didn't realize that was the loot window. I didn't read it, blah blah blah... You will be hated on .lol

Otr

rollox wrote: »

And make an enemy for life when your tank wins the clothe robes of everlasting mana with ice affinity. Bound to player item.

Luckily in AoC mistakes can be corrected:

Very little gear will be account bound or soulbound in Ashes of Creation.[2][3]
The game economy is based around crafting and degradation of items.[2]

Kleptix

Otr wrote: »

There will be more looting mechanics
Free-for-all.

Lootmaster.

Round-robin.

Need or greed

Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting
Play in a guild and have less uncertainty.

Thank you for providing a list and link. The problem is, none of these loot options prevent or deter toxic / careless looting and the ability to kick directly promotes it. Let’s be honest, playing in a guild doesn’t change it either - we have all experienced our fair share of toxic leaders / officers. Unfortunately, as long as the option is there, people will take it, whether it’s intentional or not.

In my opinion, honor loot systems are dated for a reason - people don’t enjoy them due to bad experiences. I don’t expect the dev team to completely re-vamp the system so that everyone is entitled to their own loot pool, although that would be my best case scenario, but I do expect there to be rules in place to prevent toxic, ignorant or careless looting.

Veeshan

I kinda find it interesting that new games need these loot system to prevent ninja lootings and things however games such as Everquest 1 didnt.
And it realy came down to in EQ1 u required groups to do things effectivly and you couldnt get name change so if your name got out as a ninja looters you basicly briocked your character since no one will group with your anymore and you cant do anything appart from rerolling.

Ruerik

I might normally feel really unhappy about any job being able to loot stuff they cant use

But since the vast majority of gear is market based, it means I can also grind money in my downtime and just buy it.

Meaning I can run both the content to work towards what I want, and just farm and buy it.
I would hope the few instances of soulbound stuff are already so rare that they arent expected parts of normal wear gear, but that goal gear, the thing that keeps you playin a game because there is always more to get.

BlackBrony

This game has NO soulbound items, as far as I know, so greed need is a great way to punishing players who ninja.

Caeryl

While I’m fine with some of the less-friendly system like Need/Greed or Bids when it comes to the (should-be) uncommon full gear drops, it’s just a plain old bad idea to not reward every contributor to the raid in some way through loot, and I cannot emphasize enough that those participation rewards should NOT be something other players can affect.

Literally who thought it was a good idea to let people kick group mates out of looting rights after a clear??? That’s such a horrible idea.

I don’t think there’s actually a way to compute how negative an experience it is to spend hours upon hours of your time in a raid, succeed, and then get nothing. It doesn’t encourage grouping or being social; it encourages your players to never join in with strangers to help them. It actively makes players more reluctant to engage cooperatively with each other when the tools that exist make it so unbelievably easy for the group lead to screw people over.

At the absolute least every player should get crafting materials based on their ranks in the respective gathering lines, and they should never lose looting rights from getting ninja-kicked after the clears.

Kleptix

Taerrik wrote: »

I might normally feel really unhappy about any job being able to loot stuff they cant use

But since the vast majority of gear is market based, it means I can also grind money in my downtime and just buy it.

Meaning I can run both the content to work towards what I want, and just farm and buy it.
I would hope the few instances of soulbound stuff are already so rare that they arent expected parts of normal wear gear, but that goal gear, the thing that keeps you playin a game because there is always more to get.

Sure I can agree that it doesn’t feel as bad knowing you can buy it, IF they decide to market it rather than bank it for an alt but something doesn’t sit right with me and it’s the effort vs expected reward. If I am a ranger in a group who is providing good dps and a bow that is better than mine drops, I should have a fair chance to be rewarded with good loot. Even if it’s just materials that drop, I want to be rewarded for my effort.

Also, you should not be needing on items that you plan to market or are on a class that cannot use it, that is the definition of greed. Unfortunately a large amount of players do not respect these openly known rules unless they are enforced by the game itself.

Kleptix

Caeryl wrote: »

While I’m fine with some of the less-friendly system like Need/Greed or Bids when it comes to the (should-be) uncommon full gear drops, it’s just a plain old bad idea to not reward every contributor to the raid in some way through loot, and I cannot emphasize enough that those participation rewards should NOT be something other players can affect.

Literally who thought it was a good idea to let people kick group mates out of looting rights after a clear??? That’s such a horrible idea.

I don’t think there’s actually a way to compute how negative an experience it is to spend hours upon hours of your time in a raid, succeed, and then get nothing. It doesn’t encourage grouping or being social; it encourages your players to never join in with strangers to help them. It actively makes players more reluctant to engage cooperatively with each other when the tools that exist make it so unbelievably easy for the group lead to screw people over.

At the absolute least every player should get crafting materials based on their ranks in the respective gathering lines, and they should never lose looting rights from getting ninja-kicked after the clears.

I couldn’t agree more. As mentioned in my post - separate loot pools for everyone would be the best way to go about it but Need or Greed with imposed rules is my middle ground approach. Like you, I cannot express how much these systems have made me want to go completely solo or only play when my real life friends are on and that’s few and far between. Ultimately I end up quitting because I do not feel rewarded for my efforts.

The ability to kick people in your group or raid before all of the loot has been looted is flat out wrong and nothing short of encouraging a toxic community.

George_Black

Let's not forget the biggest issue with the need greed system.

That one guy that keeps forgetting to click, in every, single instance.

Smaashley

Just make a loot individual with % chance of dropping each item and a world loot where all players fight for that loot so everyone is happy. Must not be that hard to implement ?

George_Black

Smaashley wrote: »

Just make a loot individual with % chance of dropping each item and a world loot where all players fight for that loot so everyone is happy. Must not be that hard to implement ?

It's not a patticipation trophy kinda game.
It's economy and conflict driven.

Smaashley

George_Black wrote: »

Smaashley wrote: »

Just make a loot individual with % chance of dropping each item and a world loot where all players fight for that loot so everyone is happy. Must not be that hard to implement ?

It's not a patticipation trophy kinda game.
It's economy and conflict driven.

I'm saying that because with the system they have right now, there are people that would kill that boss 50 times and get no reward for it. Maybe you conflicted with other players for 30 minutes and then succeed to kill the boss once and don't get any loot. That is trophy because you took risk and succeeded. This is risk vs. reward, no matter the loot system.

Apok

the only reason ffxiv can do this is cause the games loot system and gear progression is so streamlined that they completely removed any diversity in builds and leave you with the same kit and gear set everyone else at your tier has.

FFXIV has a lot of really nice quality of life things about it but if ashes is gonna be so community driven and is essentially a throwback to classic MMOs I don't see how restricting people is going to help the game in this matter. People just need to make sure to record and screenshot this when it happens, call them out and let other people know.

I prefer shaming people over having devs place restrictions in a game. If you can't take the time to deal with these issues yourself why should the dev team. this is a social issue not a gameplay issue

George_Black

Smaashley wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Smaashley wrote: »

Just make a loot individual with % chance of dropping each item and a world loot where all players fight for that loot so everyone is happy. Must not be that hard to implement ?

It's not a patticipation trophy kinda game.
It's economy and conflict driven.

I'm saying that because with the system they have right now, there are people that would kill that boss 50 times and get no reward for it. Maybe you conflicted with other players for 30 minutes and then succeed to kill the boss once and don't get any loot. That is trophy because you took risk and succeeded. This is risk vs. reward, no matter the loot system.

Okay... not gonna happen, what else can I tell you?

Smaashley

George_Black wrote: »

Smaashley wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Smaashley wrote: »

Just make a loot individual with % chance of dropping each item and a world loot where all players fight for that loot so everyone is happy. Must not be that hard to implement ?

It's not a patticipation trophy kinda game.
It's economy and conflict driven.

I'm saying that because with the system they have right now, there are people that would kill that boss 50 times and get no reward for it. Maybe you conflicted with other players for 30 minutes and then succeed to kill the boss once and don't get any loot. That is trophy because you took risk and succeeded. This is risk vs. reward, no matter the loot system.

Okay... not gonna happen, what else can I tell you?

Dude I'm here to give feedback based on my opinion. Intrepid does whatever they think it's best for their game and considering they have changed a lot of things based of players' feedback, they can change that as well.

George_Black

No. It goes against the philosophy of competitiveness. I dont know how you cant see that.
What's more rare, something that drops once at a time or something that drops x20 at a time?

What would create more contest? What would make for a healthier economy?

Caeryl

Apok wrote: »

the only reason ffxiv can do this is cause the games loot system and gear progression is so streamlined that they completely removed any diversity in builds and leave you with the same kit and gear set everyone else at your tier has.

FFXIV has a lot of really nice quality of life things about it but if ashes is gonna be so community driven and is essentially a throwback to classic MMOs I don't see how restricting people is going to help the game in this matter. People just need to make sure to record and screenshot this when it happens, call them out and let other people know.

I prefer shaming people over having devs place restrictions in a game. If you can't take the time to deal with these issues yourself why should the dev team. this is a social issue not a gameplay issue

It's not that the devs should have to deal with every player disagreement. However, the setup they currently have with group-loot only, all the power in the group lead's hands, and the ability to ninja-kick participating group members directly empowers bad actors and the sort of anti-social behavior that's going to discourage cooperation.

Why would I ever join a group to assist when there's (going purely by the preview we just saw) a 90% chance I walk away with absolutely nothing to show for it.

I could also turn your point and ask why there's an option of Lootmaster or Need/Greed when people could just arrange those thing organically after everyone has drawn their loot? After all, it's not the devs job to enforce players to contribute to the group funds. Why is intrepid artificially enforcing charity work as the default for 1/2/etc hours of gameplay commitment?

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