Endgame PvP transition

Question for the community and maby Devs

I've run in this in retail WoWs and a private servers.
While in open world PvP it has become impossibly hard to see an players powerlevel at a glance. Due to transmogs, you cant rely on their character model to give you an indication.
While leveling, you can look at their level and decide if its worth the risk to fight someone higher than you or if you should run/be cautious.
A same level fight is usually fair and the gear differences are most of the time negligible.
Reaching max level you are suddenly thrown into a completely different scenario. You are the bottom of the barrel in power level and if the game has been persising for some time, almost noone else is percentage wise.
The only reliable thing for seeing if you could even realistically take someone on, was to compare their HP to mine. Yet HP are different for mage/tank/whatever. Klicking them and inspecting their gear is not feasable in hectic scenarios like beeing ganked.

Whats a good way to indicate powerlevel differences in PvP at max level?

The large range of power that max lvl gear has makes it so you almost cant win a fight against someone with BiS gear. No matter how much you try to outplay. Thats not a problem in my eyes, they have earned that power. I just want a chance to run. The increased draw distance of AoC compared to other games will help, since you can scout reliable.

I might suggest seeing the elite indicators that NPCs have.
1 star (a little over your gear level)
2 star (significantly over your gear level)
3 star (the equivalent of a mob that has a skull for its lvl in wow)
All relative to your power.

Having this would give fresh max lvl characters the tools to pick fair fights and gear up in the process, while avoiding getting goomba stomped into the ground every time they take a fight.

This prevents some frustration, one of the main quit reasons of pvp.
Newly max characters should have a pvp scene too i beleve and they should have the tools to seek it out.

PS: I dont like pvp specific gear, any ideas on how to design a more flexable system for gear?

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Comments

bloodprophet

No special gear here.

There will be indicators when you click people.

How indepth is is to be determined.

Azherae

I don't know how they would 'do the metrics' (and this would obv be the contentious part) but I would absolutely support the general idea of 'star levels for players in PvP'.

The ability to attack someone, see their star level come up and realize they're no match for me, and not continue the attack, would be great for me.

Ludullu

I don't believe that level indicators will be enough to judge the power of an enemy. Mainly because we'll have way too much horizontality on our builds. And this is not even counting the supposed RPS balancing of class power matchups.

As bloodprophet said, we'll have gear icons on nameplates, so there'll be some form of indicator of our target's strength, but I doubt we'll see anything more than that, nor do I know what more (outside of having full information on the target's build) could help.

Dygz

By design, Level gap will remain somewhat opaque in order to maintain the Risk of becoming Corrupted.

DerToastinator

Azherae wrote: »

I don't know how they would 'do the metrics' (and this would obv be the contentious part) but I would absolutely support the general idea of 'star levels for players in PvP'.

The ability to attack someone, see their star level come up and realize they're no match for me, and not continue the attack, would be great for me.

Well, my suggestion was only upwards compatible in my mind. You wouldnt see stars on same or below gear power, so you would think they are an even match, but they would see you and "NOPE" the fuck out if they have the opportunity.
However seeing people are lower than you has its benefits too, yes.
(You could spare them because its not a challange for you/its nice to not gank people lower than you... or do your psychopathic approach :P )

bloodprophet wrote: »

There will be indicators when you click people.

How indepth is is to be determined.

yea, but it would be nice to see the indicator next to the lvl on the HP-bar over their head too.
that way you could even weigh your odds of group skirmishes in a glance.

I would have said, that gear has an invisible Gear-LvL that gets added up and devided by the Gear slots just like in WoW but not visible for players.
If its higher than your gear-lvl the game shows you if its lets say... 5-50 higher = 1 star.... 51 to 100 higher 2 star... ect.
That was my idea of how that could work. you wouldnt know the exact lvl but you´d have an estimate at a glance.

Dygz

We still have to test how adequate the current design for this is first.

DerToastinator

Dygz wrote: »

By design, Level gap will remain somewhat opaque in order to maintain the Risk of becoming Corrupted.

but im not talking about the risk of corruption. im talking about the risk of loosing every fight you take, because there is no way to know if its a fair fight and preventing the frustration of feeling weaker than everyone without any tool to find a siutable challange for you.
Thats a "Quit moment" and should be avoided by games.

Yes of corse it has to be tested. im asking, what you guys think is a good way to indikate to a player if he should run.
my suggestion is my suggestion. i wana hear yours too.

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

I don't believe that level indicators will be enough to judge the power of an enemy. Mainly because we'll have way too much horizontality on our builds. And this is not even counting the supposed RPS balancing of class power matchups.

Horizontal progression is horizontal because it doesnt effect your power, but the options you have.
You dont hit harder but diffrent. Maby have other synergies. If horizontal progression is ballanced right a good player can combat a horizontal build with the starter build and come out on top. A new player will have to learn the horizontal variaty, but he could overcome it if hes good with his build.
If you have fresh 50 gear and the other person is BiS you propably will loose, because ether they have doubble your hp, doubble the dmg or both.
And you are lying to me if you say gear level does not impact the DPS.
OBVIOUSLYyou cannot quantify the opponents skill and their build, but giving you a rough estimate of their gear fast, lets you decide quickly if you wana risk to try and see if your skill is bigger than his skill + gear.

Essentally its about preserving the skill factor in pvp, by letting people see who is in their weightclass in a glance. Also i think it lowers frustration, because you eliminate the "how was i supposed to know he 2 shots me, we are same lvl" factor.

As i mentioned, in early MMOs you saw a dude in epic looking armor and thought, oooh i better not fuck with that one. Nowerdays you have transmogs/skins, thats why i think we need a visual aid (on their portrait or over their head or somewhere visible)

Ludullu

DerToastinator wrote: »

Horizontal progression is horizontal because it doesnt effect your power, but the options you have.

You are a mage in frost resistance armor and augments that work against frost mobs (fire most likely), cause you're in a snow biome. Then you see a ranger (let's assume ranger is the rock to mage scissors) in gear that's the same score lvl as yours. You think "oh, I can take him, cause his stuff is the same lvl", but his gear is all fire
and with fire resistance.

All of those build features are purely horizontal, but you would not win the fight against him. You would most likely not even win if his gear had a lower gear score, because rps is against you and his build is your exact opposite horizontally.

This is why I said that seeing gear score lvls will not be enough to know if you'll win.

Also, I hate transmogs too and I wish they weren't in the game. But seeing a person's entire build is also not something I want. And the middle ground is "gear icons that tell you your target's gear grade", because they tell you their estimated power w/o telling you too much info (just as seeing their gear would w/o transmogs)
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nameplate
A buff icon will indicate the character's gear and grade.[6][7][8]

Azherae

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

DerToastinator wrote: »

Horizontal progression is horizontal because it doesnt effect your power, but the options you have.

You are a mage in frost resistance armor and augments that work against frost mobs (fire most likely), cause you're in a snow biome. Then you see a ranger (let's assume ranger is the rock to mage scissors) in gear that's the same score lvl as yours. You think "oh, I can take him, cause his stuff is the same lvl", but his gear is all fire
and with fire resistance.

All of those build features are purely horizontal, but you would not win the fight against him. You would most likely not even win if his gear had a lower gear score, because rps is against you and his build is your exact opposite horizontally.

This is why I said that seeing gear score lvls will not be enough to know if you'll win.

Also, I hate transmogs too and I wish they weren't in the game. But seeing a person's entire build is also not something I want. And the middle ground is "gear icons that tell you your target's gear grade", because they tell you their estimated power w/o telling you too much info (just as seeing their gear would w/o transmogs)
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nameplate
A buff icon will indicate the character's gear and grade.[6][7][8]

But the point isn't really to know if you will win or not.

It's to let you know (in certain games) that you are so outclassed in basic relative power that you should approach it entirely differently rather than trying to just adapt.

Similar to realizing that you're in the wrong area because the mobs are too strong.

Being able to tell the difference between 'oh that's practically a legendary hero around here, I stand no chance' and 'wait this person's build dunks on mine' is kind of important, isn't it?

iccer

Azherae wrote: »

I don't know how they would 'do the metrics' (and this would obv be the contentious part) but I would absolutely support the general idea of 'star levels for players in PvP'.

The ability to attack someone, see their star level come up and realize they're no match for me, and not continue the attack, would be great for me.

I'm all for this idea actually, and I guess this would be a way to do it:

Just add gearscore level, that is actually hidden and cannot be accessed by players.

Based on gear score level, or certain brackets (1000 gs / 2000gs / 3000gs) you see the appropriate number of stars.

OR, if you do not want players to be able to determine gs in that way, base the star system around the difference between your gs and enemy player's gs. So if the difference is say ~200gs it's 1 star, ~500gs 2 stars, ~800+ 3 stars. Obviously the numbers are relative to the total gs score, and I'm just giving an example.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Being able to tell the difference between 'oh that's practically a legendary hero around here, I stand no chance' and 'wait this person's build dunks on mine' is kind of important, isn't it?

Imo that depends highly on what the build difference limits are. In L2 you could have elemental resists so high that your opponent's attacks would do really little, but your elemental build would only be known if the attacker had practiced against several different lvls of resistances to their attack attribute.

In other words, "the legendary hero" would be as strong as "the dude whose build is counter to mine". And quite often people would make several different gear sets with elemental resistances to try and catch people off guard, which would be its own kind of "skill" in the game.

Yes, knowing that your score of 100 is nothing compared to their score of 1k is great, but we'll already have that in the icons (well, supposedly at least). And I've been told that "nameplate" is the thing that you can see at all times w/o even targeting a person, so this knowledge would be seen at a glance as well.

I also personally hope that someone in lvl50 bis doesn't just annihilate someone in lvl50 base, but that's a whoooole different discussion.

DerToastinator

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

DerToastinator wrote: »

Horizontal progression is horizontal because it doesnt effect your power, but the options you have.

You are a mage in frost resistance armor and augments that work against frost mobs (fire most likely), cause you're in a snow biome. Then you see a ranger (let's assume ranger is the rock to mage scissors) in gear that's the same score lvl as yours. You think "oh, I can take him, cause his stuff is the same lvl", but his gear is all fire
and with fire resistance.

All of those build features are purely horizontal, but you would not win the fight against him. You would most likely not even win if his gear had a lower gear score, because rps is against you and his build is your exact opposite horizontally.

I am prooven wrong. You are right. Thats horizontal as fuc. My bad

Also... I dont like when elemental resistances are too powerfull... endgame in Elden Ring as a holy caster was shit, man

Eyyyy so there is a concept already in place for this! Cool, you live and you learn.

Azherae wrote: »

But the point isn't really to know if you will win or not.

It's to let you know (in certain games) that you are so outclassed in basic relative power that you should approach it entirely differently rather than trying to just adapt.

Yea, couldnt have said it better. I dont wana know exactly how strong they are, i just want a little heads up that has good visability. Thats why i thought the 3 star mob system works here. A buff icon is fine though. I can work with that.

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

I also personally hope that someone in lvl50 bis doesn't just annihilate someone in lvl50 base, but that's a whoooole different discussion.

Me too man, me too...

Dygz

DerToastinator wrote: »

but im not talking about the risk of corruption. im talking about the risk of loosing every fight you take, because there is no way to know if its a fair fight and preventing the frustration of feeling weaker than everyone without any tool to find a siutable challange for you.
Thats a "Quit moment" and should be avoided by games.

I know you're not talking about it. I'm telling you what Steven's position on that is.
Not being certain it's going to be a fair fight is baked into the design.
The current design includes some indicators that provide general hints of power discrepancy.
And we have to test whether the current design will be sufficient.

DerToastinator

Dygz wrote: »

The current design includes some indicators that provide general hints of power discrepancy.
And we have to test whether the current design will be sufficient.

Sure its all up to testing. I just imagine, that visibility and easy understandability would be profitable for getting a hold of the underlying system and reducing rage (not eliminating it).
Also, I beleve you understood this, but ill say it again. I too want to have a range of gear difference that is not visible to the player, that can make a difference in a fight.
If the opponent is 10% stronger due to gear, thats not a problem. If however he does 100% more dmg while taking 0 dmg, i beleve the player should get a noticable heads up that this is about to happen. Its a line to walk on when to show that to the player, sure. That needs testing too.

Remember every time you got killed/corpse camped by a high lvl (lets say in stranglethorn).
All the frustration of that moment can be a lot.
Now imagine not even knowing why he is stronger than you and add loosing loot in the process.
Even if the person in question is corrupded afterwards and killed. If the killed player quit because of that he wont know about that justice.

Therefore i think its important to eliviate that frustration as much as possible without changing the system that enables ganking.

That's why im advocating for easy to spot design in that department.
It depends on the TTK, but usually if the power differences are high, you will be dead in seconds and the less time you spend on figuring out if its reasonable to fight or flee the better.

The Star system from the elite npcs would be not only easy to spot, but also intrinsically trained by just playing the game. The player will have fought elites on his way to 50 and he will instinctively know that it has to do with power level even if he never had an encounter in pvp before. You are trained by the game to check stars first. If it stays a buff with a number, you have to lean that new. I'm not against learning new concepts, but if you alredy have a system in place for showing power then why not use it? Streamlining experience.

It even the ganking player would profit from a gameplay perspective.
Instead of having less challange when facing a lower geared player, the challenge shifts.
Now the challenge is to sneak up on the player without being spotted. A same power player might fight, but lower will pretty much always try to run. When they run, you now have to keep up, because they wont mistakenly try to fight.
I know that makes his job harder, but I'd rather have a challenge in a game.

Getting stomped without a chance is infuriating, but stomping without any risk of loosing gets boring.
Both concerts I'd like to see addressed.

Thats my opinion at least.

Spif

I'm against any kind of gearscore indicator in the nameplate. I'm fine with armor transmog. Learn your opponents as people, not just stat buckets.

I'm also against there being huge amounts of vertical progression via gear rarity (IE, someone in L50 purples doing +50% the damage of someone same spec, but in L50 greens), so it really shouldn't matter that much.

Ungohil

Spif wrote: »

I'm against any kind of gearscore indicator in the nameplate. I'm fine with armor transmog. Learn your opponents as people, not just stat buckets.

Usually you can derive a lot from seeing other players gear and I'm fine with that too and transmog adds individuality, choice, diversity and thus is fine (for me).

Pendragxn

To improve gameplay, adding a quick inspect button or hotkey would be useful. This feature could give players a basic overview of another player's level or gear without revealing too much, particularly about their attunements, such as elemental attributes or status effects. The idea is to keep those details hidden so they don’t become a massive gameplay changer or deciding factor in fights, but instead add variety or flavor to the encounters. These hidden elements should complement how the game plays rather than dominate it.

The skill trees and customization options will naturally create diversity, ensuring that not every player or class follows the same build or strategy. This variety will help prevent the game from feeling too predictable or one-dimensional.

However, a potential issue arises when it comes to skills tied to specific gear, such as procs that trigger additional damage or unique abilities from certain items. Balancing this is key, especially when considering PvP. Should PvP gear be separated from PvE gear? Or should we focus only on combat skills tied directly to the player’s abilities, rather than those linked to item-based procs? This is a crucial point to address to maintain fairness and consistency in competitive environments while allowing gear to remain an important, yet balanced, aspect of gameplay.

Dygz

DerToastinator wrote: »

Remember every time you got killed/corpse camped by a high lvl (lets say in stranglethorn).
All the frustration of that moment can be a lot.
Now imagine not even knowing why he is stronger than you and add loosing loot in the process.
Even if the person in question is corrupded afterwards and killed. If the killed player quit because of that he wont know about that justice.

I'm a Carebear who doesn't care about that kind of PvP at all.
I don't care about the Level of someone who PKed me.
Either, I'm in the mood for PvP and it's fine if someone kills me.
Or I'm not in the mood for PvP and then I will be pissed that I was forced to PvP even if I win the battle.

We will test Steven's vision of conning our enemies during A2.
And we'll ask him to tweak his vision if it seems like it needs tweaking.

Zehlan

Having a level indicator would be a good idea just to help prevent killing lowbes but once you get to the top it kinda defeats the purpose open world pvp. The only reason for an indicator at max level would be so people can grief and attack people weaker than them without any risk. Without it you will have to assess the situation and take a risk which would curb senseless pvp more. Personally I think even clicking on the character should show your gear without any details would bring way more excitement.

Pendragxn

In my opinion, a color-coded system for name tags has generally worked well. The concept is straightforward: green signifies a low threat, yellow or orange indicates moderate danger, and red or purple points to a high-level risk. This makes it easy to quickly assess someone’s threat level at a glance.

Though, I’m not sure if the color coding might defeat the purpose of the PvX open world element, especially when it comes to things like ambushes, attacking caravans, and similar scenarios. It could take away some of the unpredictability that makes those encounters exciting.

Adding a quick inspect button wouldn’t hurt either. It could provide a fast way to check out someone’s basic gear level, which would be really useful for gauging opponents without too much effort.

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