Instanced PVP (Arena and/or Battlegrounds)

Greetings!

Like many others, I have been following AOC for years and am beyond excited for everything it has to over. However, I wanted to bring up a concerning issue I have.

For myself, I love both PVP and PVE content but I play PVP far more than anything else in an MMORPG. I read that AOC is primarily going to be open world content so there are going to be incentives for engaging with other players during events and what not. However, does this mean there won't be any small scale PVP that you can simply queue into or visit an area that is dedicated to small scale PVP? My favorite content happens to be 1v1 & 2v2 combat and it would be a bummer to have to only rely on stumbling across another person in the open world. I am perfectly fine with queuing into an arena/battleground or visiting a colosseum type area in which this type of thing can occur.

I would love to see a dev forum/discussion on this to see what direction PVP will be going in for AOC!

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Noaani

Arenas will be a thing in Ashes, but the point of the game is - and has always been - the open world.

Ungohil

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Open_world_battlegrounds

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

Apok

Yeah over world PvP doesn't always work out like how people think it is and you can't force it. if there's nothing to do besides hunt people in the world for any pvp I doubt they'll get the player base to make it a viable system.

game will definitely need some kind of instanced pvp even in a survival game like ark on a well populated server it can be hard to come by people unless you're using esp hacks which is usually the case when someone finds you in open world situations.

Noaani

Apok wrote: »

Yeah over world PvP doesn't always work out like how people think it is and you can't force it. if there's nothing to do besides hunt people in the world for any pvp I doubt they'll get the player base to make it a viable system.

game will definitely need some kind of instanced pvp even in a survival game like ark on a well populated server it can be hard to come by people unless you're using esp hacks which is usually the case when someone finds you in open world situations.

Yeah, but Ark is an action adventure survival game, not an MMORPG.

The difference is not something to be understated - the games probably shouldn't be compared in this regard.

Many PvP oriented MMORPG's with a focus on open world have existed and been financial successes - there is no reason at all to think that in itself will cause Ashes any issues.

Apok

Noaani wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Yeah over world PvP doesn't always work out like how people think it is and you can't force it. if there's nothing to do besides hunt people in the world for any pvp I doubt they'll get the player base to make it a viable system.

game will definitely need some kind of instanced pvp even in a survival game like ark on a well populated server it can be hard to come by people unless you're using esp hacks which is usually the case when someone finds you in open world situations.

Yeah, but Ark is an action adventure survival game, not an MMORPG.

The difference is not something to be understated - the games probably shouldn't be compared in this regard.

Many PvP oriented MMORPG's with a focus on open world have existed and been financial successes - there is no reason at all to think that in itself will cause Ashes any issues.

I'm not **** I know what kind of game Ark is I was just using it as an example.

Any MMO with open world PvP how often did you have fun engaging fights Naomi?

Apok

Noaani wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Yeah over world PvP doesn't always work out like how people think it is and you can't force it. if there's nothing to do besides hunt people in the world for any pvp I doubt they'll get the player base to make it a viable system.

game will definitely need some kind of instanced pvp even in a survival game like ark on a well populated server it can be hard to come by people unless you're using esp hacks which is usually the case when someone finds you in open world situations.

Yeah, but Ark is an action adventure survival game, not an MMORPG.

The difference is not something to be understated - the games probably shouldn't be compared in this regard.

Many PvP oriented MMORPG's with a focus on open world have existed and been financial successes - there is no reason at all to think that in itself will cause Ashes any issues.

yeah I'm not stupid I know what kind of game Ark is I was using at an example not a comparison. Please do tell me about all the fun open world PvP you have had in those successful MMORPGs

Noaani

Apok wrote: »

Please do tell me about all the fun open world PvP you have had in those successful MMORPGs

Archeage was the most successful PvP MMORPG in NA/EU for a few years, it had some great PvP.

My assumption (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) with what you want arenas/instanced PvP for is so that players can find a fight. The thing is, a game like Ashes (based on Archeage experience) will have plenty of that.

In Archeage, there were set piece style content every few hours. There was never more than a 2 hour period without some form of content that attracted people to it, that was open for PvP.

Basically, rather than setting up an arena, attracting people wanting a fight to it and then locking it off, XL instead set up an open world fight, and attracted people to it every few hours.

The game had arenas, without a doubt - but they were empty because there was no need for them due to the games design.

These are the aspects of Archeage that Steven saw and knew should make for a great game.

Apok

Noaani wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Please do tell me about all the fun open world PvP you have had in those successful MMORPGs

Archeage was the most successful PvP MMORPG in NA/EU for a few years, it had some great PvP.

My assumption (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) with what you want arenas/instanced PvP for is so that players can find a fight. The thing is, a game like Ashes (based on Archeage experience) will have plenty of that.

In Archeage, there were set piece style content every few hours. There was never more than a 2 hour period without some form of content that attracted people to it, that was open for PvP.

Basically, rather than setting up an arena, attracting people wanting a fight to it and then locking it off, XL instead set up an open world fight, and attracted people to it every few hours.

The game had arenas, without a doubt - but they were empty because there was no need for them due to the games design.

These are the aspects of Archeage that Steven saw and knew should make for a great game.

that's because Archage does the same thing FFXIV does, your kits are stripped down to streamline and balance the PvP experience. when you play arena in either game you aren't playing your character rather a streamlined kit of your class which really takes the fun out of it imo.

the whole process of setting up your own skirmishes is easier said than done, you need to organize and wait on people and let's say you worked all day and only have a few hours to yourself. you're already loosing an hour just setting things up if you're lucky.

I would run around on WoW back in the day looking for fights, usually people just ran away and cried. same for New World. I have one experience playing that game that I will remember. me and the guy fought each other while trying to farm a resource node, We both would time our attacks and CC skills and keep count of how many times we hit the node to try and claim the resources. it was a lot of fun but in the thousands of hours playing the game it's probably the only fun open world PvP I had.

My thing is in any game with arenas, is it's either stripped down like AA or FFXIV or they overly incentivize it like New World or WoW. make the rewards small and only the winners get rewarded and you won't have everyone spending all day doing them and thus you won't be taking away from the core gameplay ashes is built around

Noaani

Apok wrote: »

that's because Archage does the same thing FFXIV does, your kits are stripped down to streamline and balance the PvP experience. when you play arena in either game you aren't playing your character rather a streamlined kit of your class which really takes the fun out of it imo.

Archeage had some arena modes that did this - and some that didn't.

I agree that it's kind of shit.

Ludullu

Apok wrote: »

I would run around on WoW back in the day looking for fights, usually people just ran away and cried. same for New World. I have one experience playing that game that I will remember. me and the guy fought each other while trying to farm a resource node, We both would time our attacks and CC skills and keep count of how many times we hit the node to try and claim the resources. it was a lot of fun but in the thousands of hours playing the game it's probably the only fun open world PvP I had.

You really shoulda been playing L2

Apok

NiKr wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

I would run around on WoW back in the day looking for fights, usually people just ran away and cried. same for New World. I have one experience playing that game that I will remember. me and the guy fought each other while trying to farm a resource node, We both would time our attacks and CC skills and keep count of how many times we hit the node to try and claim the resources. it was a lot of fun but in the thousands of hours playing the game it's probably the only fun open world PvP I had.

You really shoulda been playing L2

Kinda wish I did, I hear the grind is pretty tough too. I really liked FFXI for the more unforgiving PvE experience. XP loss on death with down leveling , needed a good party comp just to grind xp, long travel times to get to where you needed to be. over world bosses, etc.

tried some private server stuff with L2 but they always work the XP rates on private servers so it was really boring and no one around to level with.

Ungohil

Apok wrote: »

I would run around on WoW back in the day looking for fights, usually people just ran away and cried.

?

I‘ve been playing WoW on pvp servers from release until end of WotLK and there was plenty of open world pvp everywhere, in all scales and sizes. Played rogue and warrior mainly, and had thousands of hours pvp-ing from 1:1 to large scale fights.

So, cant share or understand your experience at all.
I‘ve played Horde. If that makes any difference, but I dont think so.

And sure, wow vanilla was also very grindy in several aspects, all the QoL stuff was implemented later on.

Apok

Chaliux wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

I would run around on WoW back in the day looking for fights, usually people just ran away and cried.

?

I‘ve been playing WoW on pvp servers from release until end of WotLK and there was plenty of open world pvp everywhere, in all scales and sizes. Played rogue and warrior mainly, and had thousands of hours pvp-ing from 1:1 to large scale fights.

So, cant share or understand your experience at all.
I‘ve played Horde. If that makes any difference, but I dont think so.

And sure, wow vanilla was also very grindy in several aspects, all the QoL stuff was implemented later on.

I more focused on FFXI then WoW back in the day, FFXI had mechanics I never dealt with where WoW was a combination of everything that was out at the time. I might have missed out cause most of my experience is early/mid game with WoW then came back on private servers that were dedicated to arena only to play more MMO PvP

Pyrolol

I did one back in February

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/58885/the-arena-thread/p1

Then E-Sports got brought up
And people got confused between the 2.
Was a back and fourth nightmare 😂

What I tried to do from the start of that Arena Thread was compromise with the Ashes direction of the game as-well as keeping an end game high skill competitive level with fewer numbers than the original 8v8 design to offer something different yet more noticeable on individual talents & skills (ie 3v3 & 5v5) - already confirmed

The compromise I tried to get with was having reasons, upgrades to still go out into the OW and experience the other modes such as dungeons & raids to stay relevant, experience the entirety of the game but also was a choice of weather you wanted these slight upgrades to give you an advantage to climb the leaderboard of the Arena, so that way was a win/win, and everyone gets to pick how they want to play their story, makes it easier with Seasons too

Apok

Pyrolol wrote: »

I did one back in February

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/58885/the-arena-thread/p1

Then E-Sports got brought up
And people got confused between the 2.
Was a back and fourth nightmare 😂

What I tried to do from the start of that Arena Thread was compromise with the Ashes direction of the game as-well as keeping an end game high skill competitive level with fewer numbers than the original 8v8 design to offer something different yet more noticeable on individual talents & skills (ie 3v3 & 5v5) - already confirmed

The compromise I tried to get with was having reasons, upgrades to still go out into the OW and experience the other modes such as dungeons & raids to stay relevant, experience the entirety of the game but also was a choice of weather you wanted these slight upgrades to give you an advantage to climb the leaderboard of the Arena, so that way was a win/win, and everyone gets to pick how they want to play their story, makes it easier with Seasons too

yeah I did the same thing with an idea I got from playing Infantry back in the day.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59688/idea-copied-from-an-old-game-one-of-my-all-time-favorites-that-could-fit-ashes-perfectly#latest

for some reason if anyone mentions arena play the guys who never leave the forums come out to with their one sided opinions to try and tear it down. I'm getting really tired of people using "the spirit of the game" to argue for the sake of arguing or they will just derail your entire thread.

RobotronOG

Apok wrote: »

Yeah over world PvP doesn't always work out like how people think it is and you can't force it. if there's nothing to do besides hunt people in the world for any pvp I doubt they'll get the player base to make it a viable system.

game will definitely need some kind of instanced pvp even in a survival game like ark on a well populated server it can be hard to come by people unless you're using esp hacks which is usually the case when someone finds you in open world situations.

Nonsense....

judasalive

Gandohar wrote: »

...For myself, I love both PVP and PVE content but I play PVP far more than anything else in an MMORPG...

I played MMORPGs over the last 20 years and the pvp game modes, I enjoyed the most, were the following:

1. Small scale team PvP fights (4vs4 to 8vs8)
- Guildwars I - The Hall of Heroes Arena fights (instanced)
- Warhammer - scenario fights (instanced)
- RIFT - scenario (instanced; 8+)
2. Open World PvP Fights from small to larger groups (up to 50vs50)
- Lineage 2 - open world pvp (not instanced)
- Warhammer - open world pvp (zone instanced)
- Guild vs Guild or Realm vs Realm fights

I would definitely appreciate some of those game modes to see in AoC! I think the difference from those older MMORPGs to the newer once is that the older games were more focused on team/group fights with mixed class types (tank/dd/heal)... nowadays this group mechanic seems to be not relevant anymore

timjimtwo

Instanced PVP kills open world pvp bnecause everyone hangs out in protected places and runs pre-made groups...same old tired games for the rush to max level min / maxers. It will hands down ruin AOC

judasalive

timjimtwo wrote: »

Instanced PVP kills open world pvp bnecause everyone hangs out in protected places and runs pre-made groups...same old tired games for the rush to max level min / maxers. It will hands down ruin AOC

totally not agree on that :-) ! not seen in any of these old games for e.g. Warhammer....

please, dont misunderstand me. I do not prefer instanced pvp over open world. This is not the case and not my purpose of my message. The open world with uninstanced fights is really enjoyable, but along to this, there should be small scale pvp within arenas or scenarios, all instanced, with quick join and having fun

Podgnil

In my understanding, the best concept of instanced pvp for AOC is coliseums in which players themselves will hold tournaments, sell tickets there, and assign rewards. Outside of this time, these arenas/battlegrounds can work as training places where you can fight without rating, rewards and fines. Perhaps paying it with a modest amount to the treasury of the military node. This would serve as a safeguard against session players whose only activity in the game would be pressing the "registration" button. If you want to participate in a tournament, pay a fee of 50 coins, for example. The first 3 places receive 40/20/10% of the amount. If you want to be successful there, take friends with 10-15 gold and go train with the same adventurers.

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