Pull off leveling and Artisanship as Immersive

Hello
I clearly rememebered and liked what Steven said in the early days that Ashes will be a nice experience while leveling up and not as most MMO's that you need to get to max level as fast as possible because then the game begins.
How will they make that true when Landhold are a very tough quest but to get there you need max level. In perspective that it is a limited amount of holds and also that highest Processing is on those landholds?
Another very interesting matter is the Artisanship with for example crafting. How can they make each item valid in the game and not "just" something you need to level up your crafting skill fast?
Usually players find out quickly which item is easiest to craft in aspect of XP gained, but it is worthless on the market in perspective of using it while fighting players/NPC or Mobs. How to solve that?
For example I clearly remembered Skyrim when you wanted to level up Blacksmithing fast fot the "juicy" stuff and you chose iron daggers but the item itself was no point fighting with.
Interesting to read what you wise ones have to say in this.

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Dygz

You don't have to own a Freehold to Craft on a Freehold.

Caeryl

Tiered expertise would at least fix the issue of power grinding one thing to max level.

But I also have large concerns about the actual use of freeholds and the fact that it outright requires powergrinding levels as only 10% of all players could own one regardless of their accrued wealth or resources. They should nix the hard cap on them and just let anyone with enough resources buy one, which would reduce the emphasis on pushing max level as fast as possible to get access to something that you essentially have to have in order to progress further in artisan crafts.

Flanker

Caeryl wrote: »

...as only 10% of all players could own one

Dygz wrote: »

You don't have to own a Freehold to Craft on a Freehold.

You should really listen to Steven explaining that the way the world works and the way they want it to work is not "top 10% of players get all the freeholds". From what I saw so far, some (if not all) of your concerns could be eliminated the moment you listen to Steven talking about a subject of your concerns

Caeryl

Flanker wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

...as only 10% of all players could own one

Dygz wrote: »

You don't have to own a Freehold to Craft on a Freehold.

You should really listen to Steven explaining that the way the world works and the way they want it to work is not "top 10% of players get all the freeholds". From what I saw so far, some (if not all) of your concerns could be eliminated the moment you listen to Steven talking about a subject of your concerns

I'm aware of how they work. I simply fundamentally disagree that usage of a major crafting system should require the permission of other players to use.

Dygz

Steven seems to think that will help with social interactions in an MMO.

Taleof2Cities

Caeryl wrote: »

I'm aware of how they work. I simply fundamentally disagree that usage of a major crafting system should require the permission of other players to use.

Crafting or processing?

For the crafting professions, you can only craft up to Journeyman level items in freeholds. Higher than that you’ll have to head to the node city.

But, if the underlying issue for you is exclusivity of freeholds, that’s your choice as a player to undertake a freehold or not. That’s not an Intrepid issue.

Just like any other MMO, the players who are able to invest the time and effort will reap the rewards of that investment.

Agripinensia

Flanker wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

...as only 10% of all players could own one

Dygz wrote: »

You don't have to own a Freehold to Craft on a Freehold.

You should really listen to Steven explaining that the way the world works and the way they want it to work is not "top 10% of players get all the freeholds". From what I saw so far, some (if not all) of your concerns could be eliminated the moment you listen to Steven talking about a subject of your concerns

So far I haven't heard him saying anything that eliminates mine.
Simply because there is no "you definitely will have access to one" - Players owning them will control who has access.

Its not a big concern so far though - its not even set in stone how and who can actually be granted access.
Although doubtful, I still hope that we can band together and buy one. In some form of contract system where you pool resources and the non-owning participants are guaranteed access. (And can take over by paying the taxes in case the owner stops playing w/o transfering it or sth).
I think its a big problem to say that it isn't feasible to get one alone but then not to have a system enforcing at least some things probably agreed upon.
Since you can't even put a bounty on peoples head (good in general) there is no real reprecussion against griefing... (as far as I know)

Caeryl

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

I'm aware of how they work. I simply fundamentally disagree that usage of a major crafting system should require the permission of other players to use.

Crafting or processing?

Processing as an artisan path.

<snipped the Crafting bit>
But, if the underlying issue for you is exclusivity of freeholds, that’s your choice as a player to undertake a freehold or not. That’s not an Intrepid issue.

Just like any other MMO, the players who are able to invest the time and effort will reap the rewards of that investment.

Like you said, someone willing to put in the time and effort should reap the rewards. I extend that mentality to Freehold ownership. If a player can support one financially, with their time investment, and manage upkeep, there should be no arbitrary limits preventing them from purchasing a deed to build a Freehold.

So long as there are no arbitrary limits on number, and a dedicated player can reasonably get a deed with sufficient money, resources, and time to put toward its purchase and upkeep, then that's my primary concerns assuaged.

That still doesn't fix the issue of having player owned housing act as a barrier point for an artisan class. Gathering is world-reliant, Crafting is node-reliant, and Processing is player-housing-reliant for no discernible reason.

Processing locations could easily have been a feature of Village+ nodes respective to what their primary local materials are.

Flanker

Caeryl wrote: »

I'm aware of how they work. I simply fundamentally disagree that usage of a major crafting system should require the permission of other players to use.

Well, the question you might want to begin with is "Do I disagree with it because it's a bad game design in my opinion; or because it's not the way I want it to be / it doesn't fit my preferences?"

If it's the first option - well, you've come to an MMO that encorages/requires co-operation, collaboration and interacting with other players in different ways. It's not a "Massive Solo Player Online Game".

If it's the second option - that's fine, but once again, the same reply applies. Ask yourself "Why do I want it to change?" - is it because you are a casual player (and you are afraid that you might not get access to processing) or a player who prefers to play solo (and doesn't really like to be dependant on actions/decisions of other players)?

This part is important as it explains where your concerns are coming from and helps to understand your perspective better

warpath98

I can understand your concerns about the artisan crafting and freeholds. On the surface, having PVP affecting crafting seems like a real pain. But on the other hand, you have to look at the big picture and how all these different systems interact and affect each other. Regarding risk versus reward and freeholds, owning a freehold is a risk because if your node falls, so may your freehold. On the other hand, when freeholds are destroyed, it allows the owners to rebuild elsewhere and new owners to take over the old spot.
Guild freeholds may be an option and are scheduled to be implemented in phase 3 of Alpha2 (May 2025). It's unclear what the requirements will be besides a guild hall to be present.
Bottom-line, test these systems during Alpha 2 and provide feedback to Intrepid.

Zehlan

If i remember correctly it is that grand master processing professions only can be done at freeholds but large nodes will be able to put down grand master level crafting stations but i think were limited to one type in a city.

Depraved

Caeryl wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

...as only 10% of all players could own one

Dygz wrote: »

You don't have to own a Freehold to Craft on a Freehold.

You should really listen to Steven explaining that the way the world works and the way they want it to work is not "top 10% of players get all the freeholds". From what I saw so far, some (if not all) of your concerns could be eliminated the moment you listen to Steven talking about a subject of your concerns

I'm aware of how they work. I simply fundamentally disagree that usage of a major crafting system should require the permission of other players to use.

its ok to disagree, doesn't mean you are right

scarcity is a thing in this game. just trade for whatever goods you need if you don't own a freehold.
also, we saw before that you don't need to craft the highest tier sword with the highest tier materials. you can use lesser materials and then eventually upgrade to the best possible sword.

Caeryl

Depraved wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

...as only 10% of all players could own one

Dygz wrote: »

You don't have to own a Freehold to Craft on a Freehold.

You should really listen to Steven explaining that the way the world works and the way they want it to work is not "top 10% of players get all the freeholds". From what I saw so far, some (if not all) of your concerns could be eliminated the moment you listen to Steven talking about a subject of your concerns

I'm aware of how they work. I simply fundamentally disagree that usage of a major crafting system should require the permission of other players to use.

its ok to disagree, doesn't mean you are right

scarcity is a thing in this game. just trade for whatever goods you need if you don't own a freehold.
also, we saw before that you don't need to craft the highest tier sword with the highest tier materials. you can use lesser materials and then eventually upgrade to the best possible sword.

This is 1/3 of the artisan system requiring a permission slip from other players.

Needing BiS gear or not is irrelevant. The issue is that you shouldn't need a permission slip to advance. In no other aspect of the game can you halt another players progress by just saying 'nah'.

There's no reason this one part of artisan crafting is entirely at the mercy of other players.

If it were just more efficient than doing processing at a location in a node, it wouldn't matter so much, as of course a guild will need more than an individual working on personal request from others. But to not have it even be an option to do even small-scale high-level processing independent from player housing is pointless and artisan-unfriendly for no discernible reason.

Taleof2Cities

Caeryl wrote: »

There's no reason this one part of artisan crafting is entirely at the mercy of other players.

Yeah, there is a reason … it’s to collaborate with other players in a game with a label in the MMO genre.

Pretty sure we won’t be seeing the full end-to-end freehold activities until Beta, though. So, the jury’s still out on how difficult it will be for the average player (whether it be owning or having permissions).

Caeryl

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

There's no reason this one part of artisan crafting is entirely at the mercy of other players.

Yeah, there is a reason … it’s to collaborate with other players in a game with a label in the MMO genre.

Pretty sure we won’t be seeing the full end-to-end freehold activities until Beta, though. So, the jury’s still out on how difficult it will be for the average player (whether it be owning or having permissions).

Hence giving the feedback now that there should be high-end Processing functions available in Nodes themselves, not solely in player housing which no other artisan system does.

Freehold Processing plants should be for increasing efficiency and output quantity.

Depraved

Caeryl wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

...as only 10% of all players could own one

Dygz wrote: »

You don't have to own a Freehold to Craft on a Freehold.

You should really listen to Steven explaining that the way the world works and the way they want it to work is not "top 10% of players get all the freeholds". From what I saw so far, some (if not all) of your concerns could be eliminated the moment you listen to Steven talking about a subject of your concerns

I'm aware of how they work. I simply fundamentally disagree that usage of a major crafting system should require the permission of other players to use.

its ok to disagree, doesn't mean you are right

scarcity is a thing in this game. just trade for whatever goods you need if you don't own a freehold.
also, we saw before that you don't need to craft the highest tier sword with the highest tier materials. you can use lesser materials and then eventually upgrade to the best possible sword.

This is 1/3 of the artisan system requiring a permission slip from other players.

Needing BiS gear or not is irrelevant. The issue is that you shouldn't need a permission slip to advance. In no other aspect of the game can you halt another players progress by just saying 'nah'.

There's no reason this one part of artisan crafting is entirely at the mercy of other players.

If it were just more efficient than doing processing at a location in a node, it wouldn't matter so much, as of course a guild will need more than an individual working on personal request from others. But to not have it even be an option to do even small-scale high-level processing independent from player housing is pointless and artisan-unfriendly for no discernible reason.

its not 1/3 of the system. you can do processing in towns. id say its 1/5 of 1/3? since you can do almost all processing in towns except for the highest tier. and ofc this is about BiS. what would it be about if not that? pressing E on a station?

and there are reasons why it works the way it works...

Taleof2Cities

Depraved wrote: »

its not 1/3 of the system. you can do processing in towns. id say its 1/5 of 1/3? since you can do almost all processing in towns except for the highest tier. and ofc this is about BiS. what would it be about if not that? pressing E on a station?

and there are reasons why it works the way it works...

While I agree the tone of their response seems selfish, there are a couple of good points buried in the context.

First, there isn’t any other MMO (that I can think of either) that has a skill line gated by other players. Sure, you’re supposed to cooperate and get along with others in Ashes … but part of a skill line?

Second, there is no other viable alternative to level the skill line fully if you’re not at a freehold.

I’m still siding with Intrepid that they can roll out Processing in a meaningful way that’s inclusive of everyone. Worst case scenario (as you said) is you level up 4/5 of your chosen discipline in Processing … and then focus on your other crafting mastery.

To be revisited later.

Depraved

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

its not 1/3 of the system. you can do processing in towns. id say its 1/5 of 1/3? since you can do almost all processing in towns except for the highest tier. and ofc this is about BiS. what would it be about if not that? pressing E on a station?

and there are reasons why it works the way it works...

While I agree the tone of their response seems selfish, there are a couple of good points buried in the context.

First, there isn’t any other MMO (that I can think of either) that has a skill line gated by other players. Sure, you’re supposed to cooperate and get along with others in Ashes … but part of a skill line?

Second, there is no other viable alternative to level the skill line fully if you’re not at a freehold.

I’m still siding with Intrepid that they can roll out Processing in a meaningful way that’s inclusive of everyone. Worst case scenario (as you said) is you level up 4/5 of your chosen discipline in Processing … and then focus on your other crafting mastery.

To be revisited later.

but that's the thing. there is a reason why they don't want everybody to master processing. it has to do with the economy. same reason why they don't want everyone to be able to do every profession. it wasn't a random choices. it ties up with other things in the game that us players don't know about since we don't have all the info about the game yet.

at the end of the day, you will still need other players to get the gear you want, no matter which profession you choose and whether you can master it or not.

edit: there are other games who have done something similar. sure you can roll an alt and become a crafter, but leveling one alone is near damn impossible, so you are still somewhat gated to the need of having other players help you to the point you become almost dead weight. it was pretty successful though because you were really needed later on. systems like that encourage group gameplay and planning.

Caeryl

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

its not 1/3 of the system. you can do processing in towns. id say its 1/5 of 1/3? since you can do almost all processing in towns except for the highest tier. and ofc this is about BiS. what would it be about if not that? pressing E on a station?

and there are reasons why it works the way it works...

While I agree the tone of their response seems selfish, there are a couple of good points buried in the context.

First, there isn’t any other MMO (that I can think of either) that has a skill line gated by other players. Sure, you’re supposed to cooperate and get along with others in Ashes … but part of a skill line?

Second, there is no other viable alternative to level the skill line fully if you’re not at a freehold.

I’m still siding with Intrepid that they can roll out Processing in a meaningful way that’s inclusive of everyone. Worst case scenario (as you said) is you level up 4/5 of your chosen discipline in Processing … and then focus on your other crafting mastery.

To be revisited later.

It isn't selfish to see and call an arbitrary restriction for what it is. It's a bizarre turn to have crafting mastery gatekept behind player housing of all things, never existed in any game I've ever played or heard of.

When the current plan for Ashes is to master only one section of the artisan paths, having Processing being entirely unmasterable without permission from other players simply doesn't make sense.

You can fight Gatherers in contested areas to stop them from gathering high-end materials, but they could also kill you.

You can fight Crafters and their guilds away from bosses that drop rate high-end recipes, but they could also kill you.

But with Processing, you can tell someone they can't hang out in your tree house and that's the end of it. They just have to hope the people next door will sign their permission slip instead.

Caeryl

Depraved wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

...as only 10% of all players could own one

Dygz wrote: »

You don't have to own a Freehold to Craft on a Freehold.

You should really listen to Steven explaining that the way the world works and the way they want it to work is not "top 10% of players get all the freeholds". From what I saw so far, some (if not all) of your concerns could be eliminated the moment you listen to Steven talking about a subject of your concerns

I'm aware of how they work. I simply fundamentally disagree that usage of a major crafting system should require the permission of other players to use.

its ok to disagree, doesn't mean you are right

scarcity is a thing in this game. just trade for whatever goods you need if you don't own a freehold.
also, we saw before that you don't need to craft the highest tier sword with the highest tier materials. you can use lesser materials and then eventually upgrade to the best possible sword.

This is 1/3 of the artisan system requiring a permission slip from other players.

Needing BiS gear or not is irrelevant. The issue is that you shouldn't need a permission slip to advance. In no other aspect of the game can you halt another players progress by just saying 'nah'.

There's no reason this one part of artisan crafting is entirely at the mercy of other players.

If it were just more efficient than doing processing at a location in a node, it wouldn't matter so much, as of course a guild will need more than an individual working on personal request from others. But to not have it even be an option to do even small-scale high-level processing independent from player housing is pointless and artisan-unfriendly for no discernible reason.

its not 1/3 of the system. you can do processing in towns. id say its 1/5 of 1/3? since you can do almost all processing in towns except for the highest tier. and ofc this is about BiS. what would it be about if not that? pressing E on a station?

and there are reasons why it works the way it works...

You keep trying to make it about BiS but it isn't. It's solely about knowing that skill line progression should never be gatekept behind being given permission from other players to advance. I'd have the same opinion if it were fishing we were talking about.

Child Item