My problem with insistence on vertical progression and recent group EXP gain changes.

Ashes of Creation is aiming to focus on bringing back the massive multiplayer aspect to the MMO games I'm really happy about that. However the recent EXP changes in group play won't help the social aspects of this game, and in fact are likely contribute to retention issues and become a massive problem to late new comers. Also this is where my personal issues with vertical progression vs horizontal progression start:

1. Players come from different walks of life, and people often have different amount of free time to play
2. Not everyone will start playing at the same time window, late new comers etc.
3. As you level your character due to the power creep there is no reason for you to come back to low level zones
4. As the level gap will grow between gaming buddies such EXP changes will impede group play, not encourage it
5. Late comers will find levelling hard, especially as the average player level moves up
6. There is no catch up mechanics for low level players afaik
5. Recent EXP gain changes in group play make the situation only worse
7. A band-aid fix? Low level characters should get bonus EXP not lower EXP in groups to help them catch up with their team, and rest EXP bonuses.

An actual solution to the vertical progression issues is horizontal progression. This is going to upset a lot of players with rigid thinking about MMOs, and "muh number bigger than your" mentality, but vertical progression is the biggest hindrance to the social and multiplayer aspects in MMORPGs. The world, your player ground literally shrinks around you as you level. As players move up in levels they tax unnecessarily the servers in those few zones which actually matter.

Higher level often rewards you with a passive HP and power boost, before you even consider gear and more active abilities and skill synergies. Players who progress through the game slower, and late comers feel they are missing out, and find it hard to find players to group. As there is no reason for you to come back to "low level" zones, the rest of the game world start feelings empty and barren of player interaction for new comers/slower players.

A conclusion for me: Raw power gap hinders interactions between players, as your level gatekeeps you from content, whatever low or high level.

This is the part games like Guild Wars 2 got almost right, especially with player level scaling.

I wish more MMOs considered the horizontal approach to player progression in their design. Low levels get access to a basic class skills and are able contribute if geared well (for example by their guild). As you level you should gain access to more active and passive skills sure, and hopefully open up more synergies and different playstyles for your class. Gear still matters, but this is where you can be equipped by your high level guild members to allow you to join them in whatever content they are doing.

Here is a kicker: those bandits in the starter zone and that "Low level" boss now should still be a challenge for both low and high level players. Certain content might simply require better gear.

What do you get with this approach?

1. A living world which doesn't shrink as you level
2. Better spread of player population around the world which taxes the game server less
3. More opportunities to group up, as your level doesn't gatekeep you from content so much
4. A gameplay which is hopefully build around player understanding of the class, and their gear and not passive level power creep
5. HOPEFULLY game longevity through getting access to different play styles locked behind class levelling.
6. Better player retention
7. Players don't easily burnt out as they no longer suffer from FOMO so easily
8. Better new player integration, and engagement, as they dont struggle so much with groups or play through empty zones
9. More meaningful pve and pvp contributions for non 1% players.

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Comments

mcstackerson

I agree. It feels like they’ve adopted a theme park approach to leveling, which contradicts the sandbox nature of the game. In a theme park MMO, it makes sense to gate players by power, forcing them to progress through different zones as they level up. But in Ashes, players are meant to make these zones their home. If low-level mobs serve no purpose to high-level players, the space becomes underutilized. Even if their drops remain relevant, the challenge is lost since they’re too easy to defeat.

Endowed

Within 3 levels there should be 0 exp hit.
Full even cut for all.

mcstackerson wrote: »

I agree. It feels like they’ve adopted a theme park approach to leveling, which contradicts the sandbox nature of the game. In a theme park MMO, it makes sense to gate players by power, forcing them to progress through different zones as they level up. But in Ashes, players are meant to make these zones their home. If low-level mobs serve no purpose to high-level players, the space becomes underutilized. Even if their drops remain relevant, the challenge is lost since they’re too easy to defeat.

The mobs will level higher in nodes that are higher. Supposedly. And new dungeon/POIs spawn. We don't have that yet.

Dygz

Ashes is a Themebox.

Githal

I dont think these group exp changes that Intrepid implemented are enough. There needs to be more exp penalties for groups.

First - If you cant keep leveling up with the group you currently play with, maybe find some different group to level up. This doesnt mean you will stop playing with your initial group, but it means that you may not be able to level together which is totally fine. You will just make more friends by being in different group, while you catch up to your other friend so you can play together for some other content.

Power leveling is and always will be negative for any game. When you start from "Bussing" random players for gold. making hard content be trivial, having high level players in lower level zones killing and making it hard for other lower level players.

Second - Groups above 8 players in them should get Exp gain reduction for everyone, not just lower level players. The reasons are similar - making hard content trivial by sheer numbers, making the life of regular groups be hell.

Intrepid should DISTINGUISH which content is for what group size intended and balance it around it.
It will never work if they leave it to players without implementing any restrictions.

Dygz

Seems in-line with the design intent - they just haven't implemented those details yet.
Good to keep an eye on it though.

SmileGurney

Githal wrote: »

I dont think these group exp changes that Intrepid implemented are enough. There needs to be more exp penalties for groups.

First - If you cant keep leveling up with the group you currently play with, maybe find some different group to level up. This doesnt mean you will stop playing with your initial group, but it means that you may not be able to level together which is totally fine. You will just make more friends by being in different group, while you catch up to your other friend so you can play together for some other content.

Power leveling is and always will be negative for any game. When you start from "Bussing" random players for gold. making hard content be trivial, having high level players in lower level zones killing and making it hard for other lower level players.

Second - Groups above 8 players in them should get Exp gain reduction for everyone, not just lower level players. The reasons are similar - making hard content trivial by sheer numbers, making the life of regular groups be hell.

Intrepid should DISTINGUISH which content is for what group size intended and balance it around it.
It will never work if they leave it to players without implementing any restrictions.

I consider power levelling a band-aid for the actual vertical progression problem, but then that is not going to change in AoC. There is a reason why I loved when Guild Wars 2 introduced levelling scaling. Sadly that only worked there one way, at least last time I played.

At this point I'm just voicing my general frustrations with how a lot of MMORPGs fail to address the design issues those games have been struggling since 1990s.

mcstackerson

Endowed wrote: »

Within 3 levels there should be 0 exp hit.
Full even cut for all.

mcstackerson wrote: »

I agree. It feels like they’ve adopted a theme park approach to leveling, which contradicts the sandbox nature of the game. In a theme park MMO, it makes sense to gate players by power, forcing them to progress through different zones as they level up. But in Ashes, players are meant to make these zones their home. If low-level mobs serve no purpose to high-level players, the space becomes underutilized. Even if their drops remain relevant, the challenge is lost since they’re too easy to defeat.

The mobs will level higher in nodes that are higher. Supposedly. And new dungeon/POIs spawn. We don't have that yet.

Yes, my issue isn't as much with there not being high-level content, it's that there needs to be content for every level range, and all that content needs to take up space. It's all space that players outside the intended level range can't utilize, which limits a player's options. I'd prefer a system that is less about vertical progression/levels and instead is gated more by world state and group size.

Xeeg

There will always be a range of leveling spots because of the vassal node system putting a hard cap on the higher level nodes. There will always be level 3 nodes in the game for players in the level 5-20 range to level up on.

The problem really is big guilds powerleveling alts and shit like that. Hard to differentiate that from a couple of friends who missed out on a weekend and now cant play together because they are too far away in levels.

Maybe the solution is to have a "main" character and "alt" characters directly implemented from the main server menu. The alts cant be powerleveled, but the main can?

Shrug

abc0815

mcstackerson wrote: »

I agree. It feels like they’ve adopted a theme park approach to leveling, which contradicts the sandbox nature of the game. In a theme park MMO, it makes sense to gate players by power, forcing them to progress through different zones as they level up. But in Ashes, players are meant to make these zones their home. If low-level mobs serve no purpose to high-level players, the space becomes underutilized. Even if their drops remain relevant, the challenge is lost since they’re too easy to defeat.

The game is going full theme park. Rushing to max level. Grind zones for drops. Crafting at max level. Maybe some story game play backtracking later on for achievements.

Noaani

abc0815 wrote: »

The game is going full theme park. Rushing to max level.

That is what players will do.

Not because they have no other option, but because that is always what players will do.

Crotchless

Endowed wrote: »

Within 3 levels there should be 0 exp hit.

this is exactly what i think too, made a post here about it if youd like to also give it some love
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/485326#Comment_485326

Crotchless

abc0815 wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

I agree. It feels like they’ve adopted a theme park approach to leveling, which contradicts the sandbox nature of the game. In a theme park MMO, it makes sense to gate players by power, forcing them to progress through different zones as they level up. But in Ashes, players are meant to make these zones their home. If low-level mobs serve no purpose to high-level players, the space becomes underutilized. Even if their drops remain relevant, the challenge is lost since they’re too easy to defeat.

The game is going full theme park. Rushing to max level. Grind zones for drops. Crafting at max level. Maybe some story game play backtracking later on for achievements.

remember this is EARLY alpha guys. lots of systems are not in place yet. its being used to test very specific things currently. give it time. its already known that the gear drop chance will be reduced in the future. if you think about it, they needed it in the game now so players can level and do harder content as the crafting system isnt flushed out yet. we dont even have the ability to craft the gear we'd need at level 20 so it has to come from drops currently. Things will change in time

nerdhunt

I don't want ANY sort of scaling content in my game, I think it's garbage and always will be. Scaling content was created to remove the complication of game balance, and is a band aid to shit damage tables. We want hand worked and perfected numbers that feel just right. And I definitely don't want to have my character get weaker as I make progress, which is what scaling content does, the game feels great now, character feels stronger with every level, lets keep that. I definitely want expanded skill trees and possibly armor trees.

You want to play with your buddy but he has a life and you don't? Have a character for playing with him and keep it at his pacing just to play with him. But I don't want to do that just to play with my buddy... well we don't want a shit game because you feel you should be as strong as someone who simply put in more work than you.

You are suggesting that at max level I should go to the starting zone and have as difficult of a time defeating those goblins as I did at the start of the game, and that is just absolutely disgusting to me, rotten, smells of ill. The cancer of todays gaming corporation trends. Blizzard makes that sort of content, we don't want blizzard mentality here. As far away from it as possible please.

Podgnil

gw2 scaling is one of the reasons why I couldn't play it. The system completely devalues leveling. Makes progress uninteresting. For example, I'm going to start playing AOC on December 20th, and my friend wants to play too. But his online is 2 hours a day, and mine can be up to 12. So most likely I'll play on 2 characters. And this is normal, it shouldn't be like this, low lvl runs around in a wagon for high lvl. Only vertical progression, only hardcore. Any mentoring system, scaling, will either lead to rmt leveling, or to devaluing the progress of other players. Yes, perhaps, a light hp bonus for the fact that the player hasn't played much lately won't hurt. But it's not very good for the game, to encourage offline.

abc0815

Crotchless wrote: »

abc0815 wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

I agree. It feels like they’ve adopted a theme park approach to leveling, which contradicts the sandbox nature of the game. In a theme park MMO, it makes sense to gate players by power, forcing them to progress through different zones as they level up. But in Ashes, players are meant to make these zones their home. If low-level mobs serve no purpose to high-level players, the space becomes underutilized. Even if their drops remain relevant, the challenge is lost since they’re too easy to defeat.

The game is going full theme park. Rushing to max level. Grind zones for drops. Crafting at max level. Maybe some story game play backtracking later on for achievements.

remember this is EARLY alpha guys. lots of systems are not in place yet. its being used to test very specific things currently. give it time. its already known that the gear drop chance will be reduced in the future. if you think about it, they needed it in the game now so players can level and do harder content as the crafting system isnt flushed out yet. we dont even have the ability to craft the gear we'd need at level 20 so it has to come from drops currently. Things will change in time

Right you totally don't do that now (the base, core). Funny how every test server i have been on hands you what ever you want to test in an easy manner instead of grinding it out (and has clear instructions on what to test). This is IMHO a slow roll early access release.

Noaani

abc0815 wrote: »

Funny how every test server i have been on hands you what ever you want to test in an easy manner instead of grinding it out (and has clear instructions on what to test). This is IMHO a slow roll early access release.

It really is ok to have an option (even if a humble one) that is objectively wrong. Having this opinion tells me you have only tested expansions, or very late beta testing new games.

Developers will had out gear, levels, what ever players may need when they have things to test that need players with those things.

If they want level 50 content tested, they will happily hand players the experience to get to level 50, and a pack with appropriate gear for that level, or for what is being tested. If they have a complete crafting system they want tested, they may well put a vender in the game that sells everything needed in said crafting system so that players can test it.

Since right now all that Intrepid want from players is for us to be in game running around killing shit, there is no need to hand anyone any thing.

Your opinion (even if a humble one) that this is early access will be destroyed when one of two things happen - either they do a character wipe, or they will start handing things out to players to assist in testing. As soon as either of them happen, your opinion (even if a humble one) is not one that can be maintained.

SmileGurney

abc0815 wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

I agree. It feels like they’ve adopted a theme park approach to leveling, which contradicts the sandbox nature of the game. In a theme park MMO, it makes sense to gate players by power, forcing them to progress through different zones as they level up. But in Ashes, players are meant to make these zones their home. If low-level mobs serve no purpose to high-level players, the space becomes underutilized. Even if their drops remain relevant, the challenge is lost since they’re too easy to defeat.

The game is going full theme park. Rushing to max level. Grind zones for drops. Crafting at max level. Maybe some story game play backtracking later on for achievements.

This isn't going to change if EXP rush returns are so massive.

BackgroundDust

Xeeg wrote: »

There will always be a range of leveling spots because of the vassal node system putting a hard cap on the higher level nodes. There will always be level 3 nodes in the game for players in the level 5-20 range to level up on.

is it on wiki? I always thought level of node will not affect level of mobs around it. If this is how it works then all level 4 and below nodes will be mostly dead since all high level people will tend to be near higher level nodes. and I don't think that there will be significantly more lower level people actually likely the opposite

bloodprophet

BackgroundDust wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

There will always be a range of leveling spots because of the vassal node system putting a hard cap on the higher level nodes. There will always be level 3 nodes in the game for players in the level 5-20 range to level up on.

is it on wiki? I always thought level of node will not affect level of mobs around it. If this is how it works then all level 4 and below nodes will be mostly dead since all high level people will tend to be near higher level nodes. and I don't think that there will be significantly more lower level people actually likely the opposite

Yes.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mobs
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Node_stages#Node_advancement

Node level is supposed to effect mob max level.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Leveling#Level_scaling
Levels or stats of bosses will not scale due to player levels or numbers, however boss AI is able to adapt to player numbers through the selection of mechanics and behaviors.[31][32][33][34][35]

Q: Will world bosses scale when it comes to player levels and is it based on players or the zone itself leveling?

A: They will not scale based on player level, no.[33] – Steven Sharif

The greater level disparity between the player and the mob being looted, the lower the drop percentages will be from that mob.[36][37]

I agree with this stance. Level scaling has always been weak.
This is the Elden Ring whinefest all over again. "I shouldn't have to try, Waaaaaaa!!"

I personally despise GW2 for all the reasons you listed in the OP. Day one players 5 years after launch should not be able to compete with the people that have been there since launch because they can face roll better.

Because of the way the world is intended to be laid out. There should not be a static leveling zones like most games. As node rise and fall mob levels will rise and fall. Dungeons will expand or disappear. Saw this in the A1 to a small extant.

bloodprophet

Githal wrote: »

Intrepid should DISTINGUISH which content is for what group size intended and balance it around it.
It will never work if they leave it to players without implementing any restrictions.

Dose the level of the mobs not do this naturally?
Are people unable to make this choice for themselves?

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