Open letter to Mr. Sharif for the problems of casual players

Dear Mr. Sharif

First of all: I am a casual player. A gatherer, farmer and builder.

My guild and I are actually looking forward to building something in a game like AoC, but why?

We are at a massive disadvantage compared to power leveling players and PvP guilds.

It only takes about 70 hours of play to get to level 25 within a group.

(See the "Ultimate Level Guide" on youtube)

And as gatherers and crafters – what can we achieve in 70 hours?

Maybe 2 professions at Level 2 and level 10 in Fighting.

Risk against rewards – not for us.

The more time we invest in building a node, the higher the risk that a 50-man PvP guild at a high level will tear everything down and destroy hundreds of hours of game time.

The more successful we are as a building guild, the bigger the target on our backs.

AoC forces us to either join a very large guild or work as slaves in (or for) a PvP guild. Diplomacy alone will not save us.

We haven't even started playing and we're already screwed.

Rewards - for PvE players? Nope - only risk.

For all power leveling and PvP players:

Normally, players like my friends and I are the backbone of all MMO games, we build, we make high-quality weapons and armor, etc... But in AoC we are just victims or slaves. This cannot work in its current form, as we are deprived of any motivation to build something as a smaller guild. I ask for your understanding that even smaller guilds and casual players in AoC should not only be defenseless targets.

Conclusion:
As a casual player, gatherer and crafter, I have no rewards to expect, only risk.

My node, my freehold and my caravans are only targets for PvP players.

I would like to ask you to rethink some game mechanics.

And no - i don't have a good solution. And yes - i think that most of us will leave this game if our node and freeholds are destoyed and we had played so many time for nothing.

Regards
Sentani

(English is not my native language sorry for the Google translation)

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Comments

daveywavey

Sentani wrote: »

First of all: I am a casual player. A gatherer, farmer and builder.

Here is your first learning point.
Ashes isn't a game where you can ignore PvP and PvE and just do Artisan. You're going to need to do all three. Maybe not in equal portions, but you'll need to engage in all of them.
Once you've really taken in that point, you'll see that the rest of your letter answers itself.

unknownsystemerror

Ludullu

Sentani wrote: »

Normally, players like my friends and I are the backbone of all MMO games, we build, we make high-quality weapons and armor, etc...

But in AoC we are just victims or slaves.

I'm genuinely curious, what is the difference between the first part of this quote and the second?

How are you NOT a "slave" in all the other mmos where you're building weapons and armor?

Are you making those only for yourself in other games? And then what exactly stops you from doing the literal same in Ashes? I soloed as a multi-artisan in P1. I mined metals/rocks, chopped wood, processed and crafted a ton of different stuff. I wasn't anyone's "slave" while doing all of that.

So I fail to see how exactly is you being a casual in other games, where everyone who's not a casual is stronger than you, is any different from Ashes, where it's gonna be the exact same situation.

Sentani wrote: »

My node, my freehold and my caravans are only targets for PvP players.

You do realize that hardcore players will be in the same situation, right? Except they will invest even more time and effort into their part of the node, freehold, caravans.

You're not special here. But you are casual (as you say yourself), and freeholds are a hardcore part of the game. Caravans are a hardcore part of the game. And nodes are shared across, potentially, hundreds of people, so it's not just YOU who will lose things.

Ashes is not against casuals. Ashes is simply a more hardcore game than something like Palia. If you're not ok with potentially losing progress - the game might not be to your liking, but that has nothing to do with you being casual or hardcore.

Sentani

Here is your first learning point.
Ashes isn't a game where you can ignore PvP and PvE and just do Artisan. You're going to need to do all three. Maybe not in equal portions, but you'll need to engage in all of them.
Once you've really taken in that point, you'll see that the rest of your letter answers itself.

I understand that, but our time investment as casual players (and gatherers, crafters) is much higher than for hardcore PvP players. Our losses are greater, our rewards are smaller.

And nodes are shared across, potentially, hundreds of people, so it's not just YOU who will lose things.
Ashes is not against casuals. Ashes is simply a more hardcore game than something like Palia. If you're not ok with potentially losing progress - the game might not be to your liking, but that has nothing to do with you being casual or hardcore.

Yes - I know that I don't lose any progress, but here too I lose more in invested playing time than I get in "rewards". And please don't misunderstand me, in a node war the entire node can be destroyed.
For smaller guilds (smaller nodes) this can be the end of the game.
So I repeat my statement that smaller guilds that focus on casual play are only targets for hardcore guilds and have little protection

Noaani

This is not a game designed for the small guild full of casual players.

I don't think I can make that point any more clear than that.

if you are convinced that Ashes is the game for you, that you want to be involved in building something in this game, then by far your best option is to find a large but generally mature guild, put to them what you plan on putting in to the gam, what you want out the game and how that could be of benefit to them, and then either become a part of their guild, or affiliated with it.

The thing is, what appear from your perspective as being issues with the games design are actually features of the game.

Andi

You can play this game pretty well and never encounter PVP at all. No worries.

And don't worry too much about what people say.

Sentani

@ Noaani

Is that all you can think of?

The game is not suitable for players like me?

Join a large guild - we don't want small guilds?

At the moment, only the law of the strongest applies in AoC.

As a high-level PvP guild, you can do anything in this game.

As a smaller casual guild, you can't, quite the opposite. You are a victim or a slave because you can lose everything you have built up.

I want to point that out with my statement.

But you are right

Now I play hardcore with my small guild, look for an alliance with like-minded people and use weaker guilds and nodes as loot boxes.

If that's what you want, then that's how it is.

senyaak

I dont rly see an issue here - just became some small gild which pay up a big one for protection

You can give them items you crafted and theyll protect you caravans and fight of red dudes

Flashfirez23

Every guild is going to have to align with other guilds. Not all guilds are sweaty try hard guilds that are assholes. Just find other guilds with common interests that you can get along with and work together to protect what you have made. Yes, diplomacy can work. Especially when more zones and nodes get added. It will be easier to spread out and build something on your own. Also, why not expanding your guild to include PVPers to help you. It’s a social game you got to work with different types of players.

Dygz

Ashes is not designed for Casual Challenge players.
Also, does not appear to be designed for Casual Time players. Especially since Steven does not even acknowledge Casual Time as a thing.

Keep in mind that Alpha 2/Phase 1 is primarily a stability test.
Professions may feel better by Alpha 2/Phase 3.

Dygz

Ludullu wrote: »

How are you NOT a "slave" in all the other mmos where you're building weapons and armor?

Are you making those only for yourself in other games? And then what exactly stops you from doing the literal same in Ashes? I soloed as a multi-artisan in P1. I mined metals/rocks, chopped wood, processed and crafted a ton of different stuff. I wasn't anyone's "slave" while doing all of that.

It's defintely going to feel much better in MMORPGs like WoW and EQ/EQ2.
Especially if you're not playing on a PvP server.
Probably likely to feel like a slave when playing Lineage 2, EvE or ArcheAge, sure.

Dygz

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

That quote from 2017 is obsolete as of Jeffrey Butler leaving and Steven's obsession with Risk v Reward when he became Acting Lead Designer in 2022.

Knotti

We all know AoC is being somewhat modelled after the game Eve.
I invite you to read this article and tell me what you think.
https://pcgamer.com/eve-online-player-thinks-no-one-will-notice-if-he-hauls-dollar5000-worth-of-items-is-wrong/

Gizban

Flashfirez23 wrote: »

Every guild is going to have to align with other guilds. Not all guilds are sweaty try hard guilds that are assholes. Just find other guilds with common interests that you can get along with and work together to protect what you have made. Yes, diplomacy can work. Especially when more zones and nodes get added. It will be easier to spread out and build something on your own. Also, why not expanding your guild to include PVPers to help you. It’s a social game you got to work with different types of players.

Reasonable.

Noaani

Sentani wrote: »

Noaani

Is that all you can think of?

Yeah, kind of.

It isn't how I would want the game to be, but I am not making the game.

The game is designed around a few players having a lot of influence - that is kind of the point of the game as a whole. With an eye on the goal being that a few players have all the influence, things like crafting (at least at the top end) need to be able to be kept under those players thumb. You cant have all the influence concentrated to a few players if those same players do not also control character power in some way.

This is why, imo, the best thing you can do as a smaller guild is to be associated with one of these influential players.

Again, I'm not saying it's what I want, it's just how it is. Pointing it out as a flaw when in fact it is anpaet of the games basic design isn't going to get anywhere, unfortunately. I would also think that just agreeing with you that it sucks without also pointing out why it is how it is, and giving you a suggestion for how you could move forward seems equally as unhelpful.

Sentani

@Knotti
Yeah man, thats hardcore :'( But only for a singleplayer.

In Nodewars you can destoy the Node and the freeholds - the work of hundred hours of playtime.

When I read all the comments I come to the conclusion that I am wrong with my post.
I think my friends and I will specialize in hardcore PvP. The rewards are greater and the risk for high-level characters with high-quality weapons and armor will be lower.

Thank you for the comments - I have learned something new again

Azherae

Sentani wrote: »

@Knotti
Yeah man, thats hardcore :'( But only for a singleplayer.

In Nodewars you can destoy the Node and the freeholds - the work of hundred hours of playtime.

When I read all the comments I come to the conclusion that I am wrong with my post.
I think my friends and I will specialize in hardcore PvP. The rewards are greater and the risk for high-level characters with high-quality weapons and armor will be lower.

Thank you for the comments - I have learned something new again

Assuming this isn't sarcastic, then welcome to Ashes of Creation. (I'm not being sarcastic either).

If you and your friends can work together well and get good at PvP, along with all the stuff you normally do, then you are almost exactly the target 'casual' audience of Ashes of Creation.

Know your rank, pick your battles, and don't get too attached to the specific current state of your chosen node, and I'm sure you will be able to enjoy it for years to come.

daveywavey

Sentani wrote: »

I think my friends and I will specialize in hardcore PvP. The rewards are greater and the risk for high-level characters with high-quality weapons and armor will be lower.

I'll just point out again that you're probably going to want to engage in all sides, rather than focusing on just the one.

MincVinyl

One poor assumption I see made by the OP is that he believes his charity effort towards a town belongs to him. This is incorrect. Much like I pay taxes IRL, I do not own my city.

You should be assuming any effort towards a town is forfeit in the long run. Its like giving money to a friend.... there's a chance you will get paid back, but they have no actual obligation to pay you back. Think of it more as an investment, either it will go up or down.

Second note, why should players who properly engage in all aspects of the game bend the knee to someone who wants to ignore half the systems in the game?

If I dont like using skills in combat, should I be able to light attack players to death?

Caww

Not to point out the overtly obvious, but, given this is an Alpha, all effort will be lost for character wipes and other reset events.

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