Let's make professions more engaging

An idea to make professions more interesting:

Combining some good elements from other games I would love to see something like:

A “guitar hero” kind of mini game with series of keystrokes (like black desert fishing) that has low impact results so will probably be utilized only from min/max-ers and casuals won’t be missing out on too much. As an example, for Mining Journeyman there could be a 3 -key combo that if you played and “win” the game you could get mini buffs like: 0,5sec faster gather, 5% more rare resources, etc.
All the above can be also control by clothing. It would be great if different kind of clothing would offer (as a trait) what “buff” the mini-game would result into.

Taking this to master level, it could be like a larger/harder key combo that would be hard to accomplish.
Taking this even further, it could lead to more options like:
• Giving options in the combo that allows for you to choose the buff. As an example, in a 5-key combo the 4th key could be either X or Y and if you pressed the X you took a “speed buff” and if you pressed the Y you took a “+% rare mats” buff.
• For the crafting professions this could even change the weight of stats (like if you press X the item will have more crit than haste). Or even this could lead to an insignificant item level increase, but a very rare item. If -for example- the max item level in the game was 200, the master crafter that has made an item 203 out of the same mats, just by playing a very hard version of this mini game (lets say an intense 30sec of fast keystrokes) would be greatly appreciated and sought after. Not for the stats but for the rarity of those items.
• And this crafter could charge for this kind of effort. Like, 5k if customer wants base item or 7k if customer wants me to TRY to go for 203. And to make this even more interesting lets say that every time you play this minigame (the first 50 times) it becomes 1% slower. So your first tries will surely be fails (the speed will be unworldly) and after 30-40 tries you ‘ll start seeing some “wins” (if you persevere).
• This could even separate specialties. Let’s take weapon-smithing as an easy example: lets say that sword-crafting requires a mini game played with keys AWSD and F1-5 but axe-crafting requires an entirely different setup of potential keys like F5-F12 and arrow keys (so a very different hand setup). Master crafting (able to achieve this slight advantage of 3 item levels) in both specializations would be so much harder if you had to excel in both those “hand placements”.

The main idea would be that this is not mandatory and pretty much not required at all for the majority of crafters. All casual crafters will be able to reach master level crafting BiS gear (200 item level in the example above) and won’t miss out on much if they wont “play” the minigame. This game would serve the low level crafters as a spice for the time they invest on crafting and at high levels, as a purpose (/target) builder for profession min-maxing for those that want to excel and separate themselves from all others.

The minigame I proposed served just as an example done right. There could be more and funnier mini games.

What do you people think?

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Comments

BackgroundDust

I've read a lot of proposals to include mini-games. I'll actually come out and say it, I'm strongly against mini games. There are two reasons for that:

1. after some time of playing these mini-games you'll get tired of them. it's nothing like mob grinding - you'll never make a minigame so interesting it will be fun after playing it for *period of time*. with no-minigame lumberjacking or mining etc. now you can at least click a button and move on to the next one after 5sec, with mini game if you want to gather 1k trees in a day - you'll start thinking about hanging yourself playing those minigames.

2. with rapidly growing AI adoption, you'll see people training AI to control a mouse/keyboard to hit buttons at the right time every time and there is no way you'll detect it (just google 'AI aimbot for CS' or something).

arismangree

Valid concerns!

That's why these games should not be (/feel) mandatory.
You play them only if you enjoy active gathering/crafting (min-maxing).
It should be like "achievement rush". You don't need to do them, it just caters to those kind of people.

As for the "new wave" of automation addons, this argument can be used for all kinds of gameplay. There are already 1-button dps rotation addons on very well known games. So when those hit the market, game-developers will need to "take measures"...

Azherae

Same brief response as 'before'.

I don't want the interaction matrix of a given profession changed because someone who wouldn't even like that thing irl wants to do it in game.

As one of my guild members says, it makes things 'itchy' when the game is constantly pushing you slightly out of the 'zone'. Maybe this only affects people like us, but it eventually does kill the 'comfortable nostalgia login' urge.

Loch

I say, just make certain mats harder to get, as in time investment. Or rare recipes. That way the truly dedicated will have their higher chances of making higher tier items, while keeping the mini games away.

Arya_Yeshe

Industry with mini-games it's just a chore that gets old really fast.
Industry only becomes fun and meaningful when paired with war.

Voeltz

I'd rather have Gathering like Velheim or Sons of the Forest. Fishing like Sea of Thieves or RDR2. Cooking like Sea of Thieves or RDR2 but with more steps for complex recipes. Crafting and processing that simulates the process like Medieval Blacksmith. Smelting the metal, pooring it into a mold, hammering it into a blade, attaching the handle, grinding an edge on the blade.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoICdpvJYR4

Lodrig

As I said in the other Artisan thread. Gathering (I won't speak on processing or crafting) should fall under three paradigms. Abnegation (zone out passive play), Treashure hunting (active use of skills for locating specific resources), or Group Piñata play in which the focus on on a groups teamwork and use of skills to 'attack' a large resource cache.

All three types of gameplay should exist for every type of gatherable resources. So fish for example can be caught with passive afk fishing, OR with a more interactive fishing game, OR a fishing boat using a net and 3 other players all attacking the school of fish like it was a mob.

So long as the flexibility exists to collect any resource type (though not nessarily the top quality) through each style of gameplay then the existence of the 'interesting mini games' is not in itself bad, so long as the games are DESIGNED TO FUFILL the experience goals of that type of gathering and not to just distraction or waste time which is what people HATE about most mini-game implementations, they are just time-sinks ontop of another time-sink.

Treasure hunt minigames should be entirely about FINDING the resource, getting pings, traces, tracks, clues etc to know which way to go to 'hunt' the thing your looking for. Once the resource is found, no stupid waste of time 'barrier' in collecting it. Every interaction with the 'mini-game' should be me SAVING time vs the current wandering blindly trying to find things gameplay. The focus is on quality and sifting out the small, rare and faint signals of high value resources from the clutter of lower value resources. This player is mentally engaged and warry of being ganked because their high value resources drop so scanning for threats and remaining hidden can be substantial parts of their gameplay.

Abnegational players don't need a mini-game, walking and picking up things IS their mini-game and is all the mental engagement they are looking for, and for our fishers they are looking for even less as they just listen to a podcast or music while afk. Note that these players should be collecting completly different stuff from the Treashure hunter so they do not compete even if in the same space, the Agnegational player picks up a pebble every 5 seconds and 20 pebbles make a rock, or they pick sticks off of trees without chopping them to make stick bundles which are usable only as fuel. The low value of their gatherings should actually help to keep them safer from gankers and the amount that their sticks and pebbles that are lost on death could be made much lower then other gatherables to address the issue of them being easy targets, low risk should mean low reward for ganking player.

The loot Piñata gatherer gameplay starts only when in contact with the resource, nothing before that, the opposite of the the treashure hunter. Their systems needs the most extensive gameplay because it will be multiplayer and reactive, less complex then real combat but still substantial maybe even to the level of some simple trinity like gameplay (stamina regen rather then heal on party members, debuffing/softening the resource cache, applying big high 'damage' hits to break through 'twisted knots' or 'concretions' etc etc). Quantity and collection speed and storage capacity are what their skills, gear and gameplay focus on, the quality of the resource is already pre-determined they the nature of the Piñata they are hitting. It's all about bulk quantities, efficency and protecting the large 'haul' they get as they return home. Such groups have the safety of numbers but much like an open world raid boss they need to worry about other groups that want to let them do the most of the work and then steal their winnings so speed of gathering is also defacto safety for them.

arismangree

I agree on this take on so many levels but:
1. You take it "abnegational playing" (zoned-out passive grind) is something people opt into most of the time. Sure many people do want to do this some times, but the vast majority considers this gameplay a required "grind". That 's why bots exist. If people enjoyed it, they would be doing it.

2. You are not considering the optional aspect. I 100% agree that you should always be able to phase out chopping some wood listening to celtic music. I just say you should also have the option to opt-in to a more active grind and get small doses of progression (/dopamine) instead of the feeling of time sink at the end of a gaming session.

Voeltz

@Lodrig "Abnegational players" as you call them are not a group that developers should be considering at all when making design decisions. Have some common sense. It should be designed for players that actually want to be engaged in the gameplay. If you're a developer launching a new game and you actually want it to be successful, It needs to be fun and engaging, especially one that strives to 'move the genre forward'. Creating a mind numbingly boring gameplay loop that caters to your buddies who just wanna press one button and AFK while the game plays for them as they watch Netflix or zone out doing other things is the opposite and no better than Autoplay. If that's your idea of playing a game you shouldn't be playing to begin with. Throne and Liberty had this but had to remove it because of the outrage from the community. Same feedback was already given in regards to Ashes 1 button button craft and automated processing. People do not want a game to play for them, it defeats the entire purpose.

nanfoodle

Mini games for crafting is a bad idea. No matter how good they are. 2-10 years of playing the same mini games gets old no matter how good they are. Please do not add mini games for crafting.

Voeltz

1 button gathering/processing/crafting and waiting for a loading bar gets old. Nearly every MMO for the last 30 years has had these same lame interactions. Time to try something new.

Laetitian

Lodrig

Voeltz wrote: »

@Lodrig "Abnegational players" as you call them are not a group that developers should be considering at all when making design decisions. Have some common sense. It should be designed for players that actually want to be engaged in the gameplay. If you're a developer launching a new game and you actually want it to be successful, It needs to be fun and engaging, especially one that strives to 'move the genre forward'. Creating a mind numbingly boring gameplay loop that caters to your buddies who just wanna press one button and AFK while the game plays for them as they watch Netflix or zone out doing other things is the opposite and no better than Autoplay. If that's your idea of playing a game you shouldn't be playing to begin with. Throne and Liberty had this but had to remove it because of the outrage from the community. Same feedback was already given in regards to Ashes 1 button button craft and automated processing. People do not want a game to play for them, it defeats the entire purpose.

This is absolutly wrong in every way. An MMO by definition needs to cater to many styles and changes in mood and taste from the individual, people do not desire the same thing ALL the time. This is why we have different activities in an MMO that cover a whole spectrum of intensity from PvP to PvE to Gathering.

You seem to have completly ignored my main point that all OPTIONS should be available and for all TYPES of gatherables. So the game dose not DEMAND that players gather using the passive abnigational methods, or even link the supply balance of the gatherables to what ratio of players engage in which style of gathering. They can gather as hunters or as groups as well with equal efficacy and gather any KIND of thing that way.

YOUR opinion of which is 'real' gaming is nothing more then your own (very conceited) opinion, and is as ignorant as telling someone that 'only' melee combat classes are real gameplay and developers should never listen to people who want ranged combat. Not to mention what I am propossing of multiple parrelel gathering styles IS INCREDIBLY INOVATIVE, because game had the three types before, but they have never been TOGETHER in one game with player freedom of choice as to which to use.

All hithertoo MMO have forced players into one style and inevitably have a tension between players who want something different. You may hate one of thouse types but another persons choice is not a removal of your preference, especially when the current style of gathering resembles what your DONT want and the two alternative styles are what needs to be added, which is what I'm asking for.

Lodrig

arismangree wrote: »

I agree on this take on so many levels but:
1. You take it "abnegational playing" (zoned-out passive grind) is something people opt into most of the time. Sure many people do want to do this some times, but the vast majority considers this gameplay a required "grind". That 's why bots exist. If people enjoyed it, they would be doing it.

2. You are not considering the optional aspect. I 100% agree that you should always be able to phase out chopping some wood listening to celtic music. I just say you should also have the option to opt-in to a more active grind and get small doses of progression (/dopamine) instead of the feeling of time sink at the end of a gaming session.

You seem to be assuming that the character is 'locked in' to a type. They obviously should not be. Artisan gathering skills should remain just as they are and lock you into a type of RESROUCE gathered. But should make all 3 styles of gathering possible. So 'Fishing' skill will let you fish in all three ways for example.

I could accept gathering GEAR being oriented towards a particular paradigm, but players can and do swap gear for situations so this is appropriate in my opinion.

arismangree

It is rather strange seeing people would not vote for having an additional option in a game (or in any other aspect of life).
All people who disagreed with the idea, said "they shouldn't do it" and none said, "I wouldn't use it".
Mind boggling :P.

Even more, someone even argued it's better to gate endgame recipes behind hard core time sink ("dedication").

I can see the reasoning "everyone has time but not all have the skill" so lets make it fair and use time-spend as a gate keeper. But seeing how this game mostly caters to grown audience I really hope developers will not use our most valuable resource (time) to gate content.
I don't say, make it easy and fast to get to end-game crafting. I am saying I hope they wont gate it behind many long hours of mindless grinding.

And again, the proposed mini-games use would be optional by anyone who WANTS to spice things up.
"Why do chores, while you can play a (mini)game?" kind of mentality

Voeltz

Lodrig wrote: »

This is absolutly wrong in every way. An MMO by definition needs to cater to many styles and changes in mood and taste from the individual, people do not desire the same thing ALL the time. This is why we have different activities in an MMO that cover a whole spectrum of intensity from PvP to PvE to Gathering.

You seem to have completly ignored my main point that all OPTIONS should be available and for all TYPES of gatherables. So the game dose not DEMAND that players gather using the passive abnigational methods, or even link the supply balance of the gatherables to what ratio of players engage in which style of gathering. They can gather as hunters or as groups as well with equal efficacy and gather any KIND of thing that way.

YOUR opinion of which is 'real' gaming is nothing more then your own (very conceited) opinion, and is as ignorant as telling someone that 'only' melee combat classes are real gameplay and developers should never listen to people who want ranged combat. Not to mention what I am propossing of multiple parrelel gathering styles IS INCREDIBLY INOVATIVE, because game had the three types before, but they have never been TOGETHER in one game with player freedom of choice as to which to use.

All hithertoo MMO have forced players into one style and inevitably have a tension between players who want something different. You may hate one of thouse types but another persons choice is not a removal of your preference, especially when the current style of gathering resembles what your DONT want and the two alternative styles are what needs to be added, which is what I'm asking for.

Yeah people have different interests, that's why the game presents the player with choice of play style in the form of Archetypes and Artisan Skills, that doesn't mean there needs to be tasks catering to lazy people who want to press a button, go afk and come back 30 minutes later to an inventory full of fish. If you want the reward you should have to put at least some effort into it, you're not entitled to it. Basically, these kinds of players want the reward without doing anything to get it. They're participation trophy lovers, that's why they're so against mini games or additional gameplay layers. Automated tasks should not be an option, It's just as bad as having an autoplay system that does everything for you. If you really hate the task that much guess what, you don't have to do it, artisan skills are completely optional. Or you can find one that is less difficult for you.

Many MMO gamers dread crafting because of how tedious and uninspiring it is and avoid it already regardless, so what's the harm in trying something fresh for a change? There's a good chance more players would be drawn to it and enjoy it. True crafter types will absolutely enjoy a more in depth system while the crowd that tolerates it purely for money might stop because it's too much effort for them and it gets in the way of their Dorito eating Netflix marathons, but they never even liked it to begin with so it really doesn't matter in their case.

Xeeg

BackgroundDust wrote: »

I've read a lot of proposals to include mini-games. I'll actually come out and say it, I'm strongly against mini games. There are two reasons for that:

Gathering is already a minigame. This minigame involves you first identifying what the gatherables look like, and where they are gathered. After you identify that, you go up to them and press "f" and wait about 4 seconds. Repeat until bags are full, gatherable item breaks, monster gets pulled, or pvp encounter. Then repeat ad nasuem as your core gameplay loop because you want to be a "gatherer" main.

That's the mini-game that already exists.

I think many of us are just asking to improve on it somehow as it is too dull and repetitive for us. If someone proposes a new minigame that is dull and repetitive then it doesn't solve the problem.

Many games have solved similar problems by introducing randomized "seeds". Think valheim map seed, civilization map seed etc. Perhaps they could do something similar to the gatherables, maybe "gatherable properties"? like tree resistances or something, so that there is at least a little bit of variation in thought, strategy, and tactics as we go about grinding our gatherables for hours on end. Maybe a few gatherable abilities that work better against different resistances.

I don't really know the solution. But it doesn't necessarily have to be a separate "minigame" activity, as much as just making the current "minigame" a little more interesting in the minute to minute / hour to hour gameplay loop. MMO players love character abilities so that is another way to make it a little more fun for the average player.

Gizban

Lodrig wrote: »

Voeltz wrote: »

@Lodrig "Abnegational players" as you call them are not a group that developers should be considering at all when making design decisions. Have some common sense. It should be designed for players that actually want to be engaged in the gameplay. If you're a developer launching a new game and you actually want it to be successful, It needs to be fun and engaging, especially one that strives to 'move the genre forward'. Creating a mind numbingly boring gameplay loop that caters to your buddies who just wanna press one button and AFK while the game plays for them as they watch Netflix or zone out doing other things is the opposite and no better than Autoplay. If that's your idea of playing a game you shouldn't be playing to begin with. Throne and Liberty had this but had to remove it because of the outrage from the community. Same feedback was already given in regards to Ashes 1 button button craft and automated processing. People do not want a game to play for them, it defeats the entire purpose.

This is absolutly wrong in every way. An MMO by definition needs to cater to many styles and changes in mood and taste from the individual, people do not desire the same thing ALL the time. This is why we have different activities in an MMO that cover a whole spectrum of intensity from PvP to PvE to Gathering.

You seem to have completly ignored my main point that all OPTIONS should be available and for all TYPES of gatherables. So the game dose not DEMAND that players gather using the passive abnigational methods, or even link the supply balance of the gatherables to what ratio of players engage in which style of gathering. They can gather as hunters or as groups as well with equal efficacy and gather any KIND of thing that way.

YOUR opinion of which is 'real' gaming is nothing more then your own (very conceited) opinion, and is as ignorant as telling someone that 'only' melee combat classes are real gameplay and developers should never listen to people who want ranged combat. Not to mention what I am propossing of multiple parrelel gathering styles IS INCREDIBLY INOVATIVE, because game had the three types before, but they have never been TOGETHER in one game with player freedom of choice as to which to use.

All hithertoo MMO have forced players into one style and inevitably have a tension between players who want something different. You may hate one of thouse types but another persons choice is not a removal of your preference, especially when the current style of gathering resembles what your DONT want and the two alternative styles are what needs to be added, which is what I'm asking for.

'A game for everyone, is a game for no one'

AFK / autoplay mobile gamers should NOT be a target audience for AoC!

They have Farmville.

Xeeg

pyreal wrote: »

'A game for everyone, is a game for no one'

AFK / autoplay mobile gamers should NOT be a target audience for AoC!

They have Farmville.

Here I might disagree slightly. There is a big difference between sprinkling in some activities that CAN cater to the semi-afk crowd, or "going to the bathroom" moments, or "im cooking while monitoring an afk activity", or I'm talking with friends and chilling, or I just wanna relax and enjoy the environment, or whatever things people may want to combine efficiencies of game time and real life time with and making all of the GATHERING professions like that all of the time to everyone.

I'm perfectly fine with the game having a few activities that can serve as afk time sinks, or whatever. Actually, i think it would be good for the health of the game to "cater to everyone" in the way that there are activities that can suit a whole bunch of playstyles and lifestyles. There are plenty of systems to go around in Ashes, not all of them have to cater to the same crowd. Heck, even though i have been complaining about this aspect, I still enjoy gathering while chilling a little bit here and there. Just not as a main activity for days...

Which is again my point. It would be nice to have the option of being a gathering main that has a much more active and interesting playstyle while grinding. Just think about how many trees you will end up chopping by the time you become grandmaster...

Smaashley

Voeltz wrote: »

1 button gathering/processing/crafting and waiting for a loading bar gets old. Nearly every MMO for the last 30 years has had these same lame interactions. Time to try something new.

Couldn't agree more

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