Everything feels so unfriendly...

Hello,
I wanted to give feedback about the whole informations/UI/crafting and overall feel of the game.

This game feels very player unfriendly in terms of crafting or even knowing what you can craft and where.
If you to craft apprentice lumberjack axe:
- you need to train the apprentice level of lumberjacking (0 info about where/how etc. but let's say you figure that out or ask other people and find it north-east from Lionhold),
- you need to gather ridiculous amount of mats (really I need 10 logs and copper to make one axe?)
- you need to go to the city to craft it,
- now you realize you need to find a better woodshop than in regular city (in my opinion apprentice items should be available in the open and give people time to realize how systems work, journeyman systems should be limited to buildings inside the nodes, until then we are established in the world and +/- know what is going on),
- you manually zoom in through the cities to notice if they got woodshop. Better woodshop is only visible with different color on zoomed minimap, zero informations when you click the node on the world map or anything which is a bit weird,
- you run there and realize that to even craft one basic axe you need to spend 10+ silver (depends on the tax rate),
- after feeling that you finally achieved some great lumberjack axe you realize that it has 0 impact on your gathering, you don't craft any faster, you got like 1% chance to gather 1 more log from each tree and that's it

Seriously, how is it supposed to be fun or engaging? It is more exhausting than exciting in any way. What is the plan of all these systems to work besides some zerg guilds and funelling everything to a single officer in order to make anything in this game? I don't expect to craft any crazy items, but like crafting first green level 10 lumberjacking axe takes either a few gold to buy mats or ages to find better quality than common materials. Why these things are still not adressed after 2+ months?

To sum up, what I would want them to change/look at:
- logical amount of resources for these items (stronger/higher tiers can take more resources, but seriously, tier 1/2 tools should be a good way to introduce us to crafting/gathering/processing)
- info what I need in order to craft that item (like red fonted message "Require Woodshop Tier 2 Station")
- instead of zooming in to every node and look around for coloured icons just click on the map marker of the city and have info what is built there (it can be limited to cities that you only visited or have unlocked emberspring)
- some mail message or mini quest when you get level 10 novice as to where to learn a skill or who to look for. Like a letter to your mailbox saying "Congratulations young adventurer, you should visit XXX around briarmoor farms".
- instead of Lumberjacking speed rating info (which I have no idea what it is) just give me info what speed is it, just like attack speed rating converts to attack speed visually in character panel. You can't find that stuff for artisans so I have no idea what 100 speed rating for professions means.

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Comments

CROW3

Not sure there’s an issue here to address. Seems like you figured out how to craft your axe, what kind of material you need, and that Ashes isn’t going to hold your hand.

That’s good learning for the rest of the game. If that seems unfriendly and not your cup of tea - that’s ok. Plenty of other games that are friendlier.

Vhaeyne

When I don't understand something in Ashes I capitalize on the social aspect of the game and ask other people. Seems to work out fine for me.

It has been fun and engaging meeting new people and learning new optimizations nearly every day.

I also don't have any interest in a game that holds my hand.

Ludullu

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I also don't have any interest in a game that holds my hand.

Why need the game to hold your hand when your in-game bros can hold your hand

Dygz

Alpha testing is not necessarily intended to be fun and engaging (as Steven continues to remind people).
Especially not before the devs are focused on balancing Crafting.

Phyrehart

I understand that the game is not finished.
We need to work out the bugs so when the game does launch it is ready to go with few issues.
I love crafting. I have since I started gaming way back when I played Ultima Online. I have been in many games since then in Alpha and Beta and Launch. The OP here is sharing their experience with crafting and how difficult it is to find the when and the where. I too experienced this. I have seen many people asking in global chat what to do because they too were lost on the when and where.
I don't see a problem with the OP sharing their experiences here as this is the place to share said problems they are finding.
I have spent a few hours trying to find the crafting information and even when I have asked the global chat there are not that many people doing the crafting to warrant a swift response and having to repeat the questions over and over.
Crafting does need some love and I am sure the Devs will be taking all of our issues and suggestions to heart.
I've waited a very long time for this game. I love the grind as it were. I don't like having to ask people for help though. I prefer to seek it out myself and figure it out. With this phase of Alpha this is just not possible without having to ask.

Roanator

i agree on the points made about the crafting.
I dont realy mind that you have to find some stuff out or ask other players...but thats where it stops.

crafting should be fun and helpfull for all lvls starting at level 1...or maybe 4 or so. The cash needed is silly.

example...
My bard lvl 5 got wolf and i was happy to go and train it. I asked where i could do it...i had to go to other places passed lvl 10+ mobs.
After making that i found out i needed 55 silver
55? i had like 6.
But there was afriendly high level near and he helped me with the cash....woooot.
So i started the training...took looooong...but hey...i was getting a wolf pet to ride.
eeeh nope...
All the time and cash was wasted.
I got a mount to pull a pvp car or so.
what the hell is this?
people explained that its random.
I havnt seen this since asherons call in 1999 and this should not be in there.

blktauna

These are exactly the observations that need to be brought up in a test.

As I've said elsewhere, the amount of cash and materials needed to craft anything completely outweighs the value of the end product. Value as in money and usefulness. You don't seem to get any levelling from it and I ask myself why is this even included because either they don't plan on making it viable and its just filler, or they aren't ready to actually test it.

Some manner of test plan or schedule of what should be tested would be useful here.

SirChancelot

ELWOW wrote: »

Hello,
I wanted to give feedback about the whole informations/UI/crafting and overall feel of the game.

This game feels very player unfriendly in terms of crafting or even knowing what you can craft and where.
If you to craft apprentice lumberjack axe:
- you need to train the apprentice level of lumberjacking (0 info about where/how etc. but let's say you figure that out or ask other people and find it north-east from Lionhold),
- you need to gather ridiculous amount of mats (really I need 10 logs and copper to make one axe?)
- you need to go to the city to craft it,
- now you realize you need to find a better woodshop than in regular city (in my opinion apprentice items should be available in the open and give people time to realize how systems work, journeyman systems should be limited to buildings inside the nodes, until then we are established in the world and +/- know what is going on),
- you manually zoom in through the cities to notice if they got woodshop. Better woodshop is only visible with different color on zoomed minimap, zero informations when you click the node on the world map or anything which is a bit weird,
- you run there and realize that to even craft one basic axe you need to spend 10+ silver (depends on the tax rate),
- after feeling that you finally achieved some great lumberjack axe you realize that it has 0 impact on your gathering, you don't craft any faster, you got like 1% chance to gather 1 more log from each tree and that's it

Seriously, how is it supposed to be fun or engaging? It is more exhausting than exciting in any way. What is the plan of all these systems to work besides some zerg guilds and funelling everything to a single officer in order to make anything in this game? I don't expect to craft any crazy items, but like crafting first green level 10 lumberjacking axe takes either a few gold to buy mats or ages to find better quality than common materials. Why these things are still not adressed after 2+ months?

I agree with almost everything you said. But I've been telling myself it's just a place holder to cope.

And it's not a matter of hand holding, some of it is straight up nonsense.

Aszkalon

ELWOW wrote: »

Hello,
I wanted to give feedback about the whole informations/UI/crafting and overall feel of the game.

This game feels very player unfriendly in terms of crafting or even knowing what you can craft and where.
If you to craft apprentice lumberjack axe:
- you need to train the apprentice level of lumberjacking (0 info about where/how etc. but let's say you figure that out or ask other people and find it north-east from Lionhold),

- you need to gather ridiculous amount of mats (really I need 10 logs and copper to make one axe?)
- you need to go to the city to craft it,
- now you realize you need to find a better woodshop than in regular city (in my opinion apprentice items should be available in the open and give people time to realize how systems work, journeyman systems should be limited to buildings inside the nodes, until then we are established in the world and +/- know what is going on),
- you manually zoom in through the cities to notice if they got woodshop. Better woodshop is only visible with different color on zoomed minimap, zero informations when you click the node on the world map or anything which is a bit weird,
- you run there and realize that to even craft one basic axe you need to spend 10+ silver (depends on the tax rate),

- after feeling that you finally achieved some great lumberjack axe you realize that it has 0 impact on your gathering, you don't craft any faster, you got like 1% chance to gather 1 more log from each tree and that's it

Seriously, how is it supposed to be fun or engaging? It is more exhausting than exciting in any way.

To be honest i laid my Alpha Two Participation on Ice for an unlimited Amount of Time by now -> because the absolute lack of Information added to my Burnout and i just gave up.

I can not harm my Nerve System in my brain like this. I am no longer 20 Years old. I can not "mine" Ores which are Apprentice because i would need to level up my Pickaxe as well.

I am not really surprised it is like this for Lumberjacking as well. So in other Words -> the few Times i saw People chop down Tree's which are higher than Novice, or mine even these "BLUE" Minerals which are like Journeyman in mining i think,

i saw some People with "SERIOUS" Connections to other Players probably -> and a lot of Background Knowledge over the Game and Artisan Professions.

The casual Gamer instead ? People like me ?
Who would need to learn everything ingame ? Step by Step ?
Jeah we are F°PEEP°ed.

I also didn't take into Account that the English Client would give me so much Problems despite me being rather decent in using English i think. But i understand Banana's about the Professions and Artisan Levels. I am as dumb as one of these Goblins we encounter everywhere - regarding Nodes.

Jeah. Waiting for Phase Three i think. Probably much, much longer. It doesn't make Sense when i don't understand Jack and run around like a headless Chicken.

ELWOW

CROW3 wrote: »

Not sure there’s an issue here to address. Seems like you figured out how to craft your axe, what kind of material you need, and that Ashes isn’t going to hold your hand.

That’s good learning for the rest of the game. If that seems unfriendly and not your cup of tea - that’s ok. Plenty of other games that are friendlier.

All I can say to that is "XD". Keep that mentality so you and maybe 1000 other players will play this game alone.

I don't need game to hold my hand so stop these stupid allusions, all I asked for in my feedback post is much better visual aspect of all these mechanics and a little bit more logic to the craft. Who needs 10 logs and 10 copper for a single weak axe? Why I need to zoom in over all cities (for now it is only like 4, but imagine later on looking for Grand Master stations over 80+ nodes).

Will it still be cool and "not holding hand"? No, it will be just waste of time to look around it if you can have somewhat basic UI to indicate what is built in these cities. It can be shown after you visit specific town or only in region that you are in, I don't mind. Current iteration is not user friendly so I give feedback.

Just to make that clear to your unfriendly mentality, all I wanted for them to change is:
- logical amount of resources
- info what I need in order to craft that item (like red fonted message "REQUIRE Woodshop Tier 2 Station")
- instead of zooming in to every node and look around for coloured icons just click on the map marker of the city and have info what is built there (it can be limited to cities that you only visited or have unlocked emberspring)
- some mail message or mini quest when you get level 10 novice as to where to learn a skill or who to look for. Like a letter to your mailbox saying "Congratulations young adventurer, you should visit XXX around briarmoor farms".
- instead of Lumberjacking speed rating info (which I have no idea what it is) just give me info what speed is it, just like attack speed rating converts to attack speed visually in character panel. You can't find that stuff for artisans so I have no idea what 100 speed rating for professions means.

ELWOW

Dygz wrote: »

Alpha testing is not necessarily intended to be fun and engaging (as Steven continues to remind people).
Especially not before the devs are focused on balancing Crafting.

This is phase of economic testing, when can I give feedback about these things if not now? No, alpha testing can be engaging and fun if all the systems that developers are creating are not punishing. 10 logs for a handle to an axe is not logical and not fun or logical. Currently I feel like every system in the game is punishing players instead of making it mix of reward/punish. It is not about testing, it is about their weird design that I give feedback about.

Dygz

Alpha testing can be fun even when it's not intended to be fun.
No one has said anything close to "It's impossible for Alpha testing to be fun... ever."
Ashes is already more fun than just a stability test.

We are still in the early part of Phase 2. It should be obvious that the devs focus is still on stability - especially since they have only been back from Holiday break for a couple of days.

I see in patch notes that some tweaks are being made to Gathering:
* More tier 1 stone gatherables have been added to caves throughout the Riverlands
* Added a random chance to obtain copper, zinc, or ruby when mining tier 1 stone gatherables.

We can expect to see significant changes to the Economy as Phase 2 continues.
You should expect Alpha testing to feel "punishing" rather than fun. Crafting currently has some functionality, but it's not balanced to be fun at the moment. Balanced for fun might not occur before Beta. Alphas are intnded to get features in and functional. Betas are for balance and final bug sqaushing..
But, definitely give feedback on the changes you want to see.

ELWOW

Dygz wrote: »

Alpha testing can be fun even when it's not intended to be fun.
No one has said anything close to "It's impossible for Alpha testing to be fun... ever."
Ashes is already more fun than just a stability test.

We are still in the early part of Phase 2. It should be obvious that the devs focus is still on stability - especially since they have only been back from Holiday break for a couple of days.

I see in patch notes that some tweaks are being made to Gathering:
* More tier 1 stone gatherables have been added to caves throughout the Riverlands
* Added a random chance to obtain copper, zinc, or ruby when mining tier 1 stone gatherables.

We can expect to see significant changes to the Economy as Phase 2 continues.
You should expect Alpha testing to feel "punishing" rather than fun. Crafting currently has some functionality, but it's not balanced to be fun at the moment. Balanced for fun might not occur before Beta. Alphas are intnded to get features in and functional. Betas are for balance and final bug sqaushing..
But, definitely give feedback on the changes you want to see.

This post is insane... Making this little changes to economy is like a single drop in the ocean. These two tweaks can be made without any effort in no time. If this is the pace that they are planning to test things then we will wait for another 8 years at the very least. Where is it said that alpha must be punishing, like who invented that theory in this game? It is bad design if everything you are doing in the game besides optimized grind is punishing.

Exactly, betas are for balance so why are we getting sweated out right now if we can test these things in less punishing way? It won't change much if instead of 2 copper we would get 6 copper. As you said it is not yet economics stage so why they should bother about more copper from a node which will effect in less demand? Your theories are always placed to fit the exact case, and in the next sentence all of a sudden it change by 180 degree just to fit your ideas. At one side it needs to be punishing, on the other side it is just stability test into theory that it is too early to test these things. Wow...

I remember alpha tests of games like WoW, GW2 for example where you could easily travel through the POI's just to TEST things, not getting punished with slow movement/slow gathering/slow leveling and slow everything. So are we testing their current ideas of systems and we give feedback as I did or we just test something else and getting punished for doing something else, like crafting? Because with your post it kinda means if I wanna test something else than stability I should feel punishment. Why is that? Why it can't be nicer and then balanced/nerfed later on?

Caww

The game does a disservice to players when chat is filled with so many people asking basic who/what/where/when/how questions that should be part of the general user experience.

Vhaeyne

Caww wrote: »

The game does a disservice to players when chat is filled with so many people asking basic who/what/where/when/how questions that should be part of the general user experience.

That is like, your opinion man...

My opinion is that hand holding and teaching the player basic things:
-insults players intelligence.
-leaves less room for discovery.
-Leaves less room for socialization.
-Creates an atmosphere where players are expected to just know everything which leads to a less social game.

A better system to me is something like EVE University. It is far more social and can lead to a more deep understanding of the game.

blktauna

This is the least social game I've played. No one helps anyone else randomly because there's no benefit. I've asked questions in zone but crickets. Its like a hostile hard core thing still where if you aren't in a premade you're done. Everything takes so long and is so much work its just boring. 50 logs to strip, that's like an hour. I get distracted away by other stuff in that time.
Then there's the jackasses that grief the lower levels. Shows how bored they are, but also by the comments I suspect they'd be doing that anyway.
Who wants to PVP in here because you lose way too much to just take a shot and give it a try.

Dygz

ELWOW wrote: »

This post is insane... Making this little changes to economy is like a single drop in the ocean. These two tweaks can be made without any effort in no time. If this is the pace that they are planning to test things then we will wait for another 8 years at the very least. Where is it said that alpha must be punishing, like who invented that theory in this game? It is bad design if everything you are doing in the game besides optimized grind is punishing.

You have no way to guage the impact of making any changes at this point of the Alpha testing.
The actual devs will make those decisions.
Again, no one said that Alpha testing must be punishing. I said expecting Alpha testing to be punishing and unfriendly.
If you want to wait to test until it feels like fun, take a break until it's balanced to be more fun.
This is not Early Access play - this is true Alpha testing. Early in the Alpha phase.
And, sure, it might be another 8 years before release.

ELWOW wrote: »

Exactly, betas are for balance so why are we getting sweated out right now if we can test these things in less punishing way? It won't change much if instead of 2 copper we would get 6 copper. As you said it is not yet economics stage so why they should bother about more copper from a node which will effect in less demand? Your theories are always placed to fit the exact case, and in the next sentence all of a sudden it change by 180 degree just to fit your ideas. At one side it needs to be punishing, on the other side it is just stability test into theory that it is too early to test these things. Wow...

This paragraph is so absurd and entitled, I'm not going to bother to explain the way the real world works outside of your fantasies.

ELWOW wrote: »

I remember alpha tests of games like WoW, GW2 for example where you could easily travel through the POI's just to TEST things, not getting punished with slow movement/slow gathering/slow leveling and slow everything. So are we testing their current ideas of systems and we give feedback as I did or we just test something else and getting punished for doing something else, like crafting? Because with your post it kinda means if I wanna test something else than stability I should feel punishment. Why is that? Why it can't be nicer and then balanced/nerfed later on?

Yeah. They let people in at a later point in Alpha development.
Also, WoW has fast travel, while Ashes will not. I think GW2 has forms of fast travel as well.
Ashes is not intended to be WoW.
The devs are primarily working on stability and even that is kinda punishing right now - because it's early Alpha. If you want to wait until the devs add more quality of life features and balance those for fun - go ahead and wait. Steven will tell that the reason Alpha access is so expensive is to weed out the people who want to fun playing, so that most of the people will be those who understand that Alpha testing tends to be arduous, rather than fun playing.

Dygz

blktauna wrote: »

This is the least social game I've played. No one helps anyone else randomly because there's no benefit. I've asked questions in zone but crickets. Its like a hostile hard core thing still where if you aren't in a premade you're done.
Who wants to PVP in here because you lose way too much to just take a shot and give it a try.

I think most people are communicating via Discord and Twitch and other apps outside of the game. Also most are connected via Guilds.

blktauna wrote: »

Everything takes so long and is so much work its just boring. 50 logs to strip, that's like an hour. I get distracted away by other stuff in that time.
Then there's the jackasses that grief the lower levels. Shows how bored they are, but also by the comments I suspect they'd be doing that anyway.

L2 players say they love a grind, so this is probably intended.
Lots of jackasses - which is to be expected for a PvP-centric... I mean "PvX"... game. Especially before they balance Corruption.
Lots of exploiting, too, at the moment.

Terranigma1

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Caww wrote: »

The game does a disservice to players when chat is filled with so many people asking basic who/what/where/when/how questions that should be part of the general user experience.

That is like, your opinion man...

My opinion is that hand holding and teaching the player basic things:
-insults players intelligence.
-leaves less room for discovery.
-Leaves less room for socialization.
-Creates an atmosphere where players are expected to just know everything which leads to a less social game.

A better system to me is something like EVE University. It is far more social and can lead to a more deep understanding of the game.

There's a time and place for everything; and there isn't.

Obviously, discovery and socialization are key aspects of an MMO but that doesn't mean that every, especially fundamental aspects regarding control or simply playing the game, are meant to be discovered. Discovering a POI? Fun! Discovering a beautiful vista? Nice! Discovering a tactic to overcome certain enemies? Exciting! But discovering how to move the camera or to attack a mob isn't something that should be discovered. It shouldn't also be made intentionally unintuitive for its own sake. In the same fashion, after starting the game the discovery and wonder shouldn't be based on figuring out the controls or most basic aspects - e.g. "How do I craft an axe?" - but what the game actually has to offer. It certainly doesn't insult my intelligence if a game communicates its basic gameplay in a clear and understandable way by means of storytelling, level design and its HUD.

Thus, I really dislike the term "hand-holding" in this context because it isn't. It isn't hand-holding to use "M" as an auto-key for map, because it's just a standard in bascially every game. Holding right-click to rotate the camera isn't also hand-holding; it's a standard. Similarly, simply giving new players a hindsight for how to access the most gameplay elements of the game isn't hand-holding - it's merely enabling players to actually play the game without expecting the other players to act as a tutorial or in-game guide, because the devs made their basic gameplay system so intransparent. Personally, I don't see how it makes Ashes a better game if new players flood the chat with "Where can I craft an axe?", "How to I attack a mob?", "Where can I get my first weapon?", "How do I jump?", etc. This isn't the time and place for socialization, but this is the moment players log off and deinstall the game. Also on the other side of the stick, I personally wouldn't be in a mood to explain each and every new player what a node is and how it works, because I simply expect to game to explain itself and don't expect me to do it.

KingDDD

Some of the pain points are great and some can be chocked up to it being alpha. The issue with the interdependence of professions to progress is spot on. I like that everything is needed to progress. However at the introductory levels it's too much pain too quick. Apprentice should have some way to make an upgraded tool without needing materials from other harvesters.

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