Suggestion: mini game for crafter's

I love the gathering and i also have high hopes for future additions to crafting.
Some suggestions for the mini game is the following:
-Players at every 10 levels gain 1 chance to improve quality of a crafted item. From normal to green: 25% chance. Green to blue: 10%chance. Blue to yellow: 5% chance. Yellow to orange: .75% chance.
-Each level costs materials to fuel the chance. For instance the dust and the green shards as fuel.
-Each level has associated fee's with all crafting. You must use the correct tier work bench to maintain these chances.
*At lower tier crafting table, the improved chances are halved.
*For higher tier workbenches, a slight increase in chances to improve quality.
-A failure can lead to damage ranging from slight to severe all the way up to destruction of the item.
-Require an item be repaired to have a chance to improve quality.

the actual games can vary for each crafter, prosessor.

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Comments

Syraleaf

I agree with your title here. I think games like Vintage Story show that crafting can be a process that takes a long time. Sure, that's not an MMO and the way you craft obviously doesn't fit 1:1 for Ashes but it -does- show very clearly that time can be the metric of investment while still allowing for experience to show in the speed of the process (though it's a bit limited in that game for obvious reasons)

Especially the crafting skills itself could benefit from smaller minigames though I can see a world where gathering also has this to make sure that each profession has a distinct feel!

Arya_Yeshe

This was debated multiple times already and a lot of people are against. maybe most people are against.

Intrepid failed in gathering information from the community because there's no polls here, were there any polls and voting anywhere at all? If there was any then I missed, I never saw anything like that here

azuleslight

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

This was debated multiple times already and a lot of people are against. maybe most people are against.

Intrepid failed in gathering information from the community because there's no polls here, were there any polls and voting anywhere at all? If there was any then I missed, I never saw anything like that here

So i am adding to the debate, it doesn't have to be a required mechanic, you can just skip the mini game and craft it without playing. However, you do not gain the bonuses the mini game would give.

Laetitian

-Players at every 10 levels gain 1 chance to improve quality of a crafted item. From normal to green: 25% chance. Green to blue: 10%chance. Blue to yellow: 5% chance. Yellow to orange: .75% chance.

I don't get what this means. Can you describe exactly what the differences would/could look like between, say, level 1, level 10, and level 50?

azuleslight

so level 1 you don't get a chance. at level 10 you get 1 chance to go from current level to the next rarity level. 20 you get 2 shots at it 30 3 and 40 4, 50 5. this rewards crafter's with risk.

"-Players at every 10 levels gain 1 chance to improve quality of a crafted item. From normal to green: 25% chance. Green to blue: 10%chance. Blue to yellow: 5% chance. Yellow to orange: .75% chance."
the percentage is the chance lets say to move up to the next tier.

Syraleaf

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

This was debated multiple times already and a lot of people are against. maybe most people are against.

Intrepid failed in gathering information from the community because there's no polls here, were there any polls and voting anywhere at all? If there was any then I missed, I never saw anything like that here

Could you point me to a place where I can see the reasons for them being opposed? I totally understand not wanting to a repetitive annoying task. I don't think that's what anyone is asking for here (I'm guessing that'll be the reason they're against it)

Currently everything related to gathering and crafting feels the same. An alchemist is no different from a carpenter. This, to me, is an issue. We do expect this kind of variation in all other aspects of the game. Rangers, for instance, are different from mages; And enemies in the game have different attacks. Why would the professions be any different?

Arya_Yeshe

azuleslight wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

This was debated multiple times already and a lot of people are against. maybe most people are against.

Intrepid failed in gathering information from the community because there's no polls here, were there any polls and voting anywhere at all? If there was any then I missed, I never saw anything like that here

So i am adding to the debate, it doesn't have to be a required mechanic, you can just skip the mini game and craft it without playing. However, you do not gain the bonuses the mini game would give.

@azuleslight @Syraleaf

I’d go for something more natural, where you get bonuses and traits based on certain conditions while crafting, like the phase of the moon, the stars, being near water or a mountain, or by adding special things to the recipe or using blessings.

You’d have to manage stuff like the fuel for the fire, its temperature, and keeping it going for hours. An NPC would be there hammering the metal for many hours and maybe even days. If anything goes wrong during the process, the NPC would let you know either through a message or in person, and offer you on a quest to grab the right materials or get blessings from a witch or someone. If everything goes right, the gear would get a nice buff.

Quests could be bringing more coal when problems happened with the fire maybe the weather is bad, or bringing a certain type of wood for the fire to increase or decrease heat, or your ore for some reason has some kind of problem and you would have to add more ore of a certain kind to fix mixture, sometimes the quest could be bringing a certain type of blood from a boss, or pay a cleric to come to the forge and chant something for hours.

I would not do mini-games at all, I would make every piece of special equipment be almost like a saga sometimes with multiple quests if you want to go big. If the player does not want to be a dedicated crafter and doesn't even want to do industry, then the player would rely on crafters and the crafters would feel special doing this.

The best crafters would be people who can actually do stuff and not simply be a clicky boy.

I could elaborate such ideas like this, but I am not sure if the player base or Intrepid is interested in this kinda of stuff, the community itself is kinda a drag, sorry.

Arya_Yeshe

Syraleaf wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

This was debated multiple times already and a lot of people are against. maybe most people are against.

Intrepid failed in gathering information from the community because there's no polls here, were there any polls and voting anywhere at all? If there was any then I missed, I never saw anything like that here

Could you point me to a place where I can see the reasons for them being opposed? I totally understand not wanting to a repetitive annoying task. I don't think that's what anyone is asking for here (I'm guessing that'll be the reason they're against it)

Currently everything related to gathering and crafting feels the same. An alchemist is no different from a carpenter. This, to me, is an issue. We do expect this kind of variation in all other aspects of the game. Rangers, for instance, are different from mages; And enemies in the game have different attacks. Why would the professions be any different?

As I remember, most people had the opinion that it would be fun at first but then the repetition would turn it into just a chore over time, which I totally get it. There's been a few of threads about it and there's quite enough people saying no to this.

I like mini-games, but not in crafting, I would follow a different path which i just discribed in the post above a minute ago.

Syraleaf

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

azuleslight wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

This was debated multiple times already and a lot of people are against. maybe most people are against.

I could elaborate such ideas like this, but I am not sure if the player base or Intrepid is interested in this kinda of stuff, the community itself is kinda a drag, sorry.

The ideas you present here are exactly what comes to mind to me when I say "minigames"!!! I think this really is just a language thing. I don't want anyone to have to shake controllers lol ^^ That's totally on me for not making it clearer. This game is played primarily by a more hardcore audience and the 'minigames' should match that style. It's why I mentioned Vintage Story (which I get is niche so you'd be forgiven for not knowing my reference here)
I merely want to make sure that each profession feels different to play as opposed to having all of them being just a "craft item" button like they are right now in their first temp implementation. I don't care much for how they're differentiated, merely that they -do- play out in different ways.

Thank you for your input though! I'm glad to see we have some common ground

TLDR: I think we agree and want the same thing. "Minigames" just sounds wrong. What we really mean is "Effort in-game that's more than pressing a button".

Arya_Yeshe

Syraleaf wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

azuleslight wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

This was debated multiple times already and a lot of people are against. maybe most people are against.

I could elaborate such ideas like this, but I am not sure if the player base or Intrepid is interested in this kinda of stuff, the community itself is kinda a drag, sorry.

The ideas you present here are exactly what comes to mind to me when I say "minigames"!!! I think this really is just a language thing. I don't want anyone to have to shake controllers lol ^^ That's totally on me for not making it clearer. This game is played primarily by a more hardcore audience and the 'minigames' should match that style. It's why I mentioned Vintage Story (which I get is niche so you'd be forgiven for not knowing my reference here)
I merely want to make sure that each profession feels different to play as opposed to having all of them being just a "craft item" button like they are right now in their first temp implementation. I don't care much for how they're differentiated, merely that they -do- play out in different ways.

Thank you for your input though! I'm glad to see we have some common ground

TLDR: I think we agree and want the same thing. "Minigames" just sounds wrong. What we really mean is "Effort in-game that's more than pressing a button".

A crafting a job would be an event, and occasionally there could be quests related to that job. These quests would pop up to make sure the crafting is going smoothly, or even to improve it. The player wouldn’t need to be online all the time, but when they log in, there’d be one or two quests about the gear that’s being crafted, and if you don't work on it then your item would be of normal quality

Tjaeden

FF14 has the best crafting system - Classes with gear.

That gear allowed different abilities to be used while crafting.

A crafter could focus on making Quality, or Quantity, or just XP.

They could combo chain abilities that guided the chances of the final outcome by a few percentage points. You could ignore the whole thing, or you could try to min max with the right clothes, tools, food, etc.

The better the gear, the more mistakes could be made, or the longer the chains could be.

This is just an example - but if AoC combat can be as fun as it is, then they can design a crafting "mini-game" to be as fun AND rewarding.

Azherae

Tjaeden wrote: »

FF14 has the best crafting system - Classes with gear.

That gear allowed different abilities to be used while crafting.

A crafter could focus on making Quality, or Quantity, or just XP.

They could combo chain abilities that guided the chances of the final outcome by a few percentage points. You could ignore the whole thing, or you could try to min max with the right clothes, tools, food, etc.

The better the gear, the more mistakes could be made, or the longer the chains could be.

This is just an example - but if AoC combat can be as fun as it is, then they can design a crafting "mini-game" to be as fun AND rewarding.

For me, I don't like this aspect of it as much, but it's the direction they seem to be going.

I'm much more used to @Arya_Yeshe's concept of how to handle that (they eventually claimed it was placebo in FF11, but damn what a powerful placebo it was).

I think it's probably best though, since your last line kinda makes the point doubly. I don't like FF14's crafting or AoC's combat, which probably means that the type of person who enjoys one enjoys the other.

I definitely like the idea of 'understanding the conditions around you relative to your input materials when crafting', but I remember feeling like the transition from FF11 crafting to FF14 crafting was a huge disappointment (and that means for someone out there, it was a huge step up, and I'm happy for those people).

I'll do my part as usual by letting Intrepid know how bottable any systems they come up with, are, especially since the Linux community for this game seems to be going strong.

azuleslight

Oh by no means do i mean a FFXIV type of crafting mini game/crafting. I mean lets say for mining you get a image of the stone your working on. you gotta mouse over a blinging X you click it and it zooms in a little and can improve the quality, and the more chances you get the faster the X light appears or you can make it easier and make it a percentage chance. or you could make it the closer you are to the X that blinks once and quickly the better the quality of the stone being mioed. This could be fun and most ppl can easily do it.

Songcaller

Go outside, turn three times, hit a nail with a hammer, return to desk, ask 'was that productive?' Realise mini games are artificially created time sinks to give non combatants reason to pay the sub.

Tjaeden

I agree that the pointless mini-game idea lacks fun, realism, and identity.

Lets try a hypothetical.

In AoC, you don't switch Classes, just clothes for passive buffs. So we put on our weaponsmithing apron that gives a bonus to what we want (quality vs quantity vs efficiency).

When we go to the artisan station, we begin to hammer our new sword.

Maybe we have 3 buttons and an Energy bar.

1 - Swing for X Energy for +1 quality
2 - Swing for X Energy for +1 quantity
3 - Swing for X Energy for few materials

That's just a quick and dirty example.

Syraleaf

Songcaller wrote: »

Go outside, turn three times, hit a nail with a hammer, return to desk, ask 'was that productive?' Realise mini games are artificially created time sinks to give non combatants reason to pay the sub.

I get the sentiment of this comment but I also feel like I can say the same for combat? Why have rotations if we can just measure my stats and my opponents stats and then instantly conclude the fight. Obviously that sounds stupid but why do we apply this logic to crafting and gathering? Aren't they allowed to be fully fledged gameplay systems too? If the goal is for crafting and gathering to feel like systems that you can really dive into then I think they'll need to have the same amount of depth as the other systems.

Tjaeden wrote: »

I agree that the pointless mini-game idea lacks fun, realism, and identity.

Lets try a hypothetical.

In AoC, you don't switch Classes, just clothes for passive buffs. So we put on our weaponsmithing apron that gives a bonus to what we want (quality vs quantity vs efficiency).

When we go to the artisan station, we begin to hammer our new sword.

Maybe we have 3 buttons and an Energy bar.

1 - Swing for X Energy for +1 quality
2 - Swing for X Energy for +1 quantity
3 - Swing for X Energy for few materials

That's just a quick and dirty example.

I like the basic idea here but I'd love for it to be slightly more involved. An example of this is pottery like seen here:

https://youtu.be/LurbbuWSeNg?si=u5UWxEam7OTOsA_x&t=105 - I'll note that I think that the system I'm showing here is lacking in a few ways:
- There is no measurement of skill
- You cannot do it faster
- Tools do not allow you to change the speed or efficiency of the actions
- The system acts the same way every time you perform the act
I think having those three points addressed would make it more well rounded and allow you to specialize more. I'll also note that I don't think this requires the systems to all be as deep and complex. Valheim, for instance, did a good job making lumber jacking feel fresh / slightly interesting with the falling trees. It just shows how a small change in a system can already give it a lot of personality (which I think is the most important part here. Each profession having some personality)

Finally, I'll note that the current combat system in ashes, in any given pve scenario also fails the second point (and arguably the fourth one too with the exception of some specific enemies) which makes me believe that you'd only need to fix some of the flaws listed above.

Songcaller

Well, there is no innovation. I'm not sure what you expect from someone copying systems inch by inch but not understanding what made the systems great in the first place. I have long advocated for much better combat. I cannot even translate in words how good combat should flow. If reviews boil down to anything like 'PvP = Good' rather than 'Combat = Good' majority of players will avoid.

nanfoodle

No matter how good mini games are they get old and people grow to hate them. Pls no mini games.

Syraleaf

nanfoodle wrote: »

No matter how good mini games are they get old and people grow to hate them. Pls no mini games.

I understand this sentiment but how it is meaningfully different from fighting pve monsters? And why can't we expect that level of depth for a system that is supposed to form such a large part of the game?

nanfoodle

Syraleaf wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

No matter how good mini games are they get old and people grow to hate them. Pls no mini games.

I understand this sentiment but how it is meaningfully different from fighting pve monsters? And why can't we expect that level of depth for a system that is supposed to form such a large part of the game?

Not all combat is the same. Dealing with casters, Tanks, every pull is different. State of the group may not be the same. Someone AFK, cleric maybe low on mana. The list goes on and on.

Mini games for crafting do not change and if they do its so little to break the repetition. When you play an MMO for months or even years. Mini games become beyond boring. I have been MMOing for 25 years. I have yet to meet a mini game I wanted to play past a few months of play.

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