Consensual PvP System in Ashes of Creation

The type of competitive imbalance we have at the moment encourages exploitative behavior, as players look for ways to manipulate mechanics and stats, rather than engage in fair and meaningful battles. Large guilds, hardcore players and zergs dominate, while solo players and small groups are left with no options.

At this point in the game development, Intrepid Studios has created a stunning world better than most mmorpgs out there, however the PvP system is fostering one of the most toxic, divisive and exhausting environments imaginable among players.
Let’s face it, right now, those who treat the game as if there’s no life outside of Verra have significant advantages over casual players. The result? Casual players are leaving already or will eventually leave, and when that happens, even the hardcore players will suffer. A PvP system that only benefits hardcore and zergs will collapse the game inevitably and the population will lessen affecting all participants including Intrepid.

It is my opinion that the best strategy for Ashes of Creation moving forward is a consensual PvP system that allows players to engage in combat when they feel adequately prepared, rather than forcing them into unwinnable encounters with the consequential anguish.

Please Intrepid allow players to opt-in when they are ready to fight, not when they’re forced.

Completely eliminate PvP zones and instead make the whole world PvP but only when the fight is consensual. This will also prevent in large scale exploit abuse and large-scale zerg dominance as individuals don’t mind if a guild is "the 8th wonder of the world" or a player "the last coca cola in the desert" as long as they can enjoy the game without someone coming and killing his or her character for no other reward than bragging rights, ego, glint and some materials.

All comments are welcome and appreciated.

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Songcaller

No to toggles. Would rather have a leveling net until max level like bdo. Toggle is a covert cry for a way to avoid pvp forever more. When is someone who needs a toggle ever really prepared?

Azherae

Two things I guess.

1) In my experience a surprising amount of people do mind if other people are more powerful or more successful than them in these games even if those people never kill them or anything like that.
2) Without the concept of the capacity of non-Consensual PvP, there isn't that much to 'enjoy' in Ashes in the first place, because it's a game built on that principle.

I'm not saying there aren't solutions, we've seen many and are still seeing them, but Intrepid is specifically targeting the demographic that doesn't like those solutions, and therefore doesn't have to compete with those other, bigger studios.

Ludullu

We already have that. It's called
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption

When you don't want to fight - you just don't fight and the attacker gets fucked over if they kill you. Hell, all these "hardcore pvpers" have been whining about the corruption penalties since before A2 even started and have only become louder about it since its release.

Pvp zones are avoidable and caravans are meant to be a social thing. Also, in the final release the only constant pvp zone would be the ocean, which is also kind of a social thing cause ships are meant to cost a lot (iirc).

The current lawless zones are meant to replicate that ocean location w/o having the ocean itself.

Arya_Yeshe

No casuals dropped cash to play alpha

Consensual PvP just brings out the worst in people because they feel safe behind the system, using it as an excuse to be total jerks. I see it all the time, pve griefing scary

Dolyem

It is opt-in with how corruption penalties are currently set. That being said, outright opt-in pvp is horrible for a PvX design. Engaging in Conflict is generally encouraged, while avoiding conflict is generally unrewarding (losing grind spots, losing caravans, losing resources, etc.) No rewards without risk, a core pillar to Ashes design.

Solvryn

Kotako wrote: »

The type of competitive imbalance we have at the moment encourages exploitative behavior, as players look for ways to manipulate mechanics and stats, rather than engage in fair and meaningful battles. Large guilds, hardcore players and zergs dominate, while solo players and small groups are left with no options.

At this point in the game development, Intrepid Studios has created a stunning world better than most mmorpgs out there, however the PvP system is fostering one of the most toxic, divisive and exhausting environments imaginable among players.
Let’s face it, right now, those who treat the game as if there’s no life outside of Verra have significant advantages over casual players. The result? Casual players are leaving already or will eventually leave, and when that happens, even the hardcore players will suffer. A PvP system that only benefits hardcore and zergs will collapse the game inevitably and the population will lessen affecting all participants including Intrepid.

It is my opinion that the best strategy for Ashes of Creation moving forward is a consensual PvP system that allows players to engage in combat when they feel adequately prepared, rather than forcing them into unwinnable encounters with the consequential anguish.

Please Intrepid allow players to opt-in when they are ready to fight, not when they’re forced.

Completely eliminate PvP zones and instead make the whole world PvP but only when the fight is consensual. This will also prevent in large scale exploit abuse and large-scale zerg dominance as individuals don’t mind if a guild is "the 8th wonder of the world" or a player "the last coca cola in the desert" as long as they can enjoy the game without someone coming and killing his or her character for no other reward than bragging rights, ego, glint and some materials.

All comments are welcome and appreciated.

This would be the deathknell of the entire game.

Taleof2Cities

The last-minute decision for opt-in PvP in New World was one of the main contributing reasons to its spectacular flameout …

s0b3it

This is a terrible idea. IF there's no risk or excitement to activities it becomes a meaningless and boring endeavor which would ultimately spell the end for ashes. You're in a world where you goal should be to become a part of a guild/community who helps protect you and train your skills and improve your gear and strength to be able to compete with the players pvping. Alternatively you might choose to protect low level players once your strong enough after experiencing these bandits. Who in their right mind would ever want to PG a game so much it becomes like a Disney theme park.

Veeshan

Pretty much is Opt in Pvp atm

Corruption penalty are so brutal no one killing anyone on purpose atm unless there naked killing botters which i approve of

Caravans are PvP opt in and the current purple zone (which is being moved next weekend) is also Opt in you can take the long way round to aithinar or run through purple zone.
Guildwars and node wars all come with a way to Opt out of the PvP which is drop the tags/node if u realy want to avoid the pvp.

i will say one thing about zergs/smaller guild is the guild tree doesnt provide enough power for the member cost atm way to strong just to go additional members and zerg it up compared to what thje 5% hp/mana and power bonus or what not is enough, 10 extra players offer so much more :P

Veeshan

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The last-minute decision for opt-in PvP in New World was one of the main contributing reasons to its spectacular flameout …

I would agree

daveywavey

This link may help you: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/categories/aoc-guild-recruitment

Volgaris

Open PvP is a big draw for me, if you allow people to flag out of PvP than you'll kill the game. I want to be able to attack anyone at anytime. I want to people to be able to attack me at anytime anywhere. Does this environment foster toxic behavior from players? Yes. But the environment isn't complete.

There are missing systems that will more clearly define who is on who's side. Will it be enough to replicate a RvR environment? I don't know, we'll have to wait and see. I love RvR, checkout DaoC, great fun. In Ashes your "team" is your guild at the moment. Maybe your Node if you care about it. Later your Vassal Nodes and Religion. I am really surprised they started A2 without Vassal and Religion, and name plates updated for those. It was short sited to say the least. Without those it created this team death match/free for all pvp environment that really sucks when there are power imbalances and massive grinds slowed even more by bugs. I think Vassals, Nodes, Guilds, and Religion are a great idea because there could be splits between those causing drama and fun scenarios. If you allow players to just turn off PvP than NONE of that matters. And you'd end up with a NW, or a theme park mmo. There's plenty of those.

Corruption needs to be tuned better. Killing guildies, citizens of the same node/religion, should net a very high corruption. Stealing loot should show add corruption, ect. Someone killing a bunch of people from a Node should become wanted by that note even if they aren't corrupt they can keep using the Node which is a slap in the face to that Node. So corruption alone isn't enough, they need more things to encourage the right PvP so it's more meaningful.

I don't disagree with you that the game is toxic at the moment and it may not get better in that regards, but it will get better, it already has made great strides since A2P1 when I started testing. But right now it's not fun to test, not because the high noise floor of toxicity, but because (grind + bugs) not equal fun for me. I personally would like to see more instanced dungeons content because zerging poi's or dungeons isn't fun... looking at NewWorld's meta again.

At the end of the day it's alpha, more than half the game mechanics aren't even in. You're worried about the AC working in the car, when devs are working on making it go and stop properly. Your point is valid though, so if it's not fun to test for whatever reason don't test. The game isn't launching anytime soon, your not going to miss out on anything.

Songcaller

There are video essays on the state of the genre. Specifically, how open world pvp is the most cherished form of pvp. Pvp on rails far less desired. Issue with open world pvp is that most players don't want to pvp at all. Thus, corruption system is still not going to snag said players. Ashes is a totally grey game with no black and white to stand out on. The nodes are not even free build like SWG.

Azherae

Songcaller wrote: »

There are video essays on the state of the genre. Specifically, how open world pvp is the most cherished form of pvp. Pvp on rails far less desired. Issue with open world pvp is that most players don't want to pvp at all. Thus, corruption system is still not going to snag said players. Ashes is a totally grey game with no black and white to stand out on. The nodes are not even free build like SWG.

Cherished for who though?

I read a comment today from a TL player who is upset and supposedly quitting because the Devs made a clamp-balance change before the expansion.

Their reasoning was quite literally: "I played and farmed 150 hours of this game over the last month or so to prepare for the expansion and now you're going to make it so that I don't get my full advantage" basically.

I feel like even most 60-90h a month players don't really 'cherish' the PvP against that type of person as much.

I couldn't decide if I found their "I played more hours of this game than my full time job, and now y'all aren't respecting my time" to be ironic or not.

Songcaller

Cherished for PVP players. What the main issue is, remains two completely separate playstyle, emotional connection and personal willing to invest is completely different between PvP players and PvE players. Most PvP players switched to FPS or Battle Royale - open world pvp. Most PvE players always go back to WoW. The trick is to create systems that is impactful for both player types. Ashes has PvE safety nets and PvP safety nets so the inherent investment is actual grey which most players do not have affinity with.

Kyraax

Kotako wrote: »

The type of competitive imbalance we have at the moment encourages exploitative behavior, as players look for ways to manipulate mechanics and stats, rather than engage in fair and meaningful battles. Large guilds, hardcore players and zergs dominate, while solo players and small groups are left with no options.

At this point in the game development, Intrepid Studios has created a stunning world better than most mmorpgs out there, however the PvP system is fostering one of the most toxic, divisive and exhausting environments imaginable among players.
Let’s face it, right now, those who treat the game as if there’s no life outside of Verra have significant advantages over casual players. The result? Casual players are leaving already or will eventually leave, and when that happens, even the hardcore players will suffer. A PvP system that only benefits hardcore and zergs will collapse the game inevitably and the population will lessen affecting all participants including Intrepid.

It is my opinion that the best strategy for Ashes of Creation moving forward is a consensual PvP system that allows players to engage in combat when they feel adequately prepared, rather than forcing them into unwinnable encounters with the consequential anguish.

Please Intrepid allow players to opt-in when they are ready to fight, not when they’re forced.

Completely eliminate PvP zones and instead make the whole world PvP but only when the fight is consensual. This will also prevent in large scale exploit abuse and large-scale zerg dominance as individuals don’t mind if a guild is "the 8th wonder of the world" or a player "the last coca cola in the desert" as long as they can enjoy the game without someone coming and killing his or her character for no other reward than bragging rights, ego, glint and some materials.

All comments are welcome and appreciated.

No. No toggles. You opt in to fight when you log into the game.

Azherae

Songcaller wrote: »

Cherished for PVP players. What the main issue is, remains two completely separate playstyle, emotional connection and personal willing to invest is completely different between PvP players and PvE players. Most PvP players switched to FPS or Battle Royale - open world pvp. Most PvE players always go back to WoW. The trick is to create systems that is impactful for both player types. Ashes has PvE safety nets and PvP safety nets so the inherent investment is actual grey which most players do not have affinity with.

But Ashes isn't targeting 'the people who went to FPS or Battle Royale' nor 'the PvE player that goes back to WoW after leaving a game like Throne and Liberty 'because it has too much PvP'.

It's targeting the EVE/Elite Dangerous/PvP TL player.

And this is why I ofc agree that consensual-only PvP doesn't work, but in a fantasy game, the current doesn't feel like it works either yet (because Intrepid would be the one to prove it to most of those players). Why? It's simple.

I like PvP and combat, but I don't actually fight much in Elite/BDO. I can honestly go a week in Elite without a battle, while still getting all of the feelings that go with 'being ready for one', because I get to change my playstyle to exactly that.

But on the other hand, if a team of 4 decides to interdict me because they did catch me sneaking through wherever I shouldn't be, I know that's basically an instant loss. The gameplay wasn't about 'can I fight' nor for them about 'can they kill me', both are obvious.

So, sure, even I 'don't want to PvP at all' in that situation. Why would I? The game has no limits on it, and therefore the obvious outcome for anyone 'not in a fully specced PvP ship rolling with their whole crew' is at least 'not much of a fun fight' even if not 'guaranteed defeat'.

Fully kitted soldiers vs no-kit soldiers is still a wash.

Songcaller

Your mentality is why pve armour and pvp armour were implemented in other games. The demarcation of one playstyle from another. One person is not the epitome of a personal choice. It is the stated disposition of a sub section of a very multifaceted set of players. Once the demarcation point has been reached there is no turning back. Right now Ashes has a few thousand more testers than Eve has players.

Just because the choices are limited does not mean we have to put up with subpar games. It is not a free play game like Eve. It is a sub game. A full £15 a month sub game. Most people will not pay £15 a month to play game modes neither exciting nor preferential. The debate is obviously going to be skewed here as both you and I have paid to test. The issue around old Apoc is all you need to know. Even more lost from corruption free seas at the time.

I merely analyse the data provided. The speed of implementation is the very band aid for the final reveals. What I mean by that is the current defence is 'placeholder systems' but we still cannot assess 'game systems'. Therefore there is an artificial bed rock due to few set parameters. In such a circumstance I merely refer to the penchant that yes, most mmo players will try a new mmo but most mmo players still return to a place they are most invested in after a short time. You only have a short time to snag people.

Arya_Yeshe

@Azherae your comment above is the most level headed comment I have seen so far and it should be an example for everybody

Songcaller

If it takes an unhinged care bear slayer to call someone level headed, I would rather remain the free rebel.

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