Why Summoner should be a melee Archetype

We have 8 Archetypes planned.

Current Melee:_____________Current Range:
Tank ____________________ Ranger
Fighter __________________ Mage
(Rogue in stealth) __________Cleric
_________________________Bard

Mmos in general have the issue of being range meta often. to lessen those probabilities its important to have at least the same amount of melee classes as range. To achieve that summoner has to be a melee Archetype. i could see it being similar to rogue with one or two range abilities and the rest melee focus. of course summoner will have the abilities from their summons so i expect there will be melee and range options. same as dps tank heal and utility options.

I am aware that most people think of a summoner as a range class with their pets being melee or range but that would lead to 5 range Archetypes and only 2 and a half melee.

So game design wise: Thats why Summoner should be a melee Archetype!

Im interested in discussing that with everyone here

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Veeshan

when it comes to secondary though anything that takes a fighter for example might change all their skills to be more melee ordinated

Just something to take into account

Also im kinda hoping they make ranger a hybrid range/melee class you have range skills and a bit of melee mixed in (crowfall did rangers the best imo) they had a few melee combos and then range ability ontop of that

Phoenix77

Veeshan has a point. I think that ur secondary archetype will determine ur range. Probably what type of summon you have active plays a role too. I guess some summons will be ranged and some melee and summoners will cast many spells through their summons.

Azherae

I don't understand what this would mean because your main weapon is what determines your range.

Do you want to force Summoners to not use Wands or Focii? Because even tanks can do that. Wand Tanks dancing around slow enemies is an entire specific way of gaining exp.

Aladaur

if most of a summoner's fighting prowess comes from their summons, and their summons are in melee range, they have the same weakness as melee classes. But making them a COMPLETE melee class would go against the summoner fantasy of being a weak glass cannon. because to be in melee range you need survivability. Unless you want to make a solo leveling Roleplay where the summoner is not a weak class that needs to stay at a range, and is a melee class that has good survivability, then you can read an entire book series called solo leveling or any other necromancer story where the MC steamrolls the entire story.

Veeshan made a good point, EVERY archetype should have 2 melee variants between the tank/fighter sub archetypes at the least, but choosing mage sub type on a fighter wont make you a caster.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Wand Tanks dancing around slow enemies is an entire specific way of gaining exp.

That do be me. EXCEPT I WANT MY FUCKING SHIELD AT THE SAME TIME, STEVEEEEEEN!!!

Vyllz

I see your point, and it's definitely an interesting design angle. Having a balanced number of melee and ranged archetypes could help prevent a ranged-dominated meta.

Personally though, I wouldn't take the risk of turning Summoner into a melee archetype. Many players, myself included, imagine Summoner as a ranged or mid-range class that commands from a distance while their summons do the frontline work.

It’s a tricky balance, and in the end, only the devs know what direction they’re aiming for in terms of combat roles and class identity. I’m really curious to see what they come up with.

Cool topic to think about either way!

Birqa

In general: "Summoners can shift their roles easily to fill gaps in a group's composition based on the role of the summon they are utilizing coupled with their choice of secondary archetype, which influences the role the summons perform best at." (Ashes Wiki)

so to answer some of the comments, by the way thanks for the input, i assume that in a best case scenario summoner will be the archetype that can be melee or range depending on their summons.
"Abilities from the summon appear on the summoner's hotbar"

having 4 archetypes for melee and range each would also influence the class building since you would have 4 options for secondaries to get some melee or range capabilities together with their augmentation schools.
if your character is ranged or melee comes from the abilities @Azherae. you can use a range weapon with any character but killing something with only auto attacks vs having abilities to help with that is a massive difference.

as for class fantasy. thats why i had this sentence in my original post already: I am aware that most people think of a summoner as a range class with their pets being melee or range but that would lead to 5 range Archetypes and only 2 and a half melee.
i would love summoner to be the hybrid that can fit all roles, only one at a time, so we could have them in melee and range. but game design wise i disagree with myself

at the end i agree with what @REHOC said: "It’s a tricky balance, and in the end, only the devs know what direction they’re aiming for in terms of combat roles and class identity. I’m really curious to see what they come up with"

lets hope they cook something reeeeaal cool for us

thx again for all the input

Noaani

Making the Summoner melee because it fulfill some OCD notion that there needs to be 4 ranged and 4 melee classes seems ill considered.

Even just the difference in how much space there is for players around a target vs how much space there is for players within casting range of a target should tell you that the kotion of balancing melee and caster is a foolish notion to even consider, let alone design around.

Shadowcrushers

Every archetype is both melee and ranged, the difference is depending on playstyle a cleric can easily play frontline, they just need a bit more heavy gear to be a bit more tanky, but because of this they will naturally heal less, but have more defensives and health, the same goes for any other class, it mainly depends on playstyle and very little about skills in the end thats why every class can use any type of gear in the game aswell as weapons so you can mix and mash to your liking

Azherae

My other question to this thread would be... why are we treating Bards as 'Ranged'?

Birqa

@Shadowcrushers : so in your opinion you would be fine with ur tank just auto attacking from range and never use skills by they cant and thats an intended playstyle? pls expand on it since i dont really see how that would be feasible.

@Azherae : bards dances are like midrange while most targeted skills are ranged so theres not much incetive to get in melee to be hit more easily. in my experience, when you can play something in range or melee people tend to choose range most of the time.

i would also be totally fine with bards skills being changed in range so they become more incentivised to be melee so summoner can be that range fantasy.
my whole point is still just that mmos tend to have a ranged meta and they suffer from it.

really nice to have this conversation ongoing btw

Shadowcrushers

@Birqa well the game is intended to make every playstyle possible, but some would benefit more from a more specific playstyle than others for example ranger would benefit from range, casters would benefit from range, tanks and other melee designed archetypes benefit more from being up melee cuz of their skills, but again the game still intend for every playstyle for every archetype to be viable in some way

willsummon

The two styles of game play currently missing in AoC are damage over time caster and pet master. The Summoner would fill both roles well.

Keep in mind that the three primary melee play styles are already present.

The defensive melee, the Tank.

The pure melee, the Fighter.

The stealth melee, the Rogue.

Side note. Both the Cleric and the Bard offer some hybrid caster and melee options.

Xeeg

Birqa wrote: »

We have 8 Archetypes planned.

Current Melee:_____________Current Range:
Tank ____________________ Ranger
Fighter __________________ Mage
(Rogue in stealth) __________Cleric
_________________________Bard

Mmos in general have the issue of being range meta often. to lessen those probabilities its important to have at least the same amount of melee classes as range. To achieve that summoner has to be a melee Archetype. i could see it being similar to rogue with one or two range abilities and the rest melee focus. of course summoner will have the abilities from their summons so i expect there will be melee and range options. same as dps tank heal and utility options.

I am aware that most people think of a summoner as a range class with their pets being melee or range but that would lead to 5 range Archetypes and only 2 and a half melee.

So game design wise: Thats why Summoner should be a melee Archetype!

Im interested in discussing that with everyone here

Yeah man this is a cool idea. Puts the summoner in melee with his pets or maybe even tanking for them. I assume there will be some range pets anyways. He can always use a wand or bow just like anyone else, but only have a couple range abilities. More melee cleave abilities or touch abilities for his pets even? Maybe pet teleports could help with mobility.

Birqa

willsummon wrote: »

The two styles of game play currently missing in AoC are damage over time caster and pet master. The Summoner would fill both roles well.

Keep in mind that the three primary melee play styles are already present.

The defensive melee, the Tank.

The pure melee, the Fighter.

The stealth melee, the Rogue.

Side note. Both the Cleric and the Bard offer some hybrid caster and melee options.

im all for dots on summoner. imagine spirit breath and a skill that lets u jump on your pet to charge into your enemy like @Xeeg mentioned. sounds really fun. wear them down with all your debuffs

willsummon

Birqa wrote: »

im all for dots on summoner. imagine spirit breath and a skill that lets u jump on your pet to charge into your enemy like @Xeeg mentioned. sounds really fun. wear them down with all your debuffs

I can see that with the Brood Warden, Summoner/Tank class. A guess that is the bug summoning class.

Since as a Brood Warden the Summoner takes on some of the Tank features, one idea would be a Brood Warden summons a large, powerful bug to mount and be a direct tank while riding that large bug.

SmileGurney

I would like to see some melee focused magic users, but I'm not sure if Summoner specifically is the best idea. Also, not like it matters that much, a plain summoner in most RPG systems tends to a ranged magic user with pets.

Birqa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASBctxQ2Fk
just linking the little unconfirmed leaks that we got so far.

does that sound more melee or range, what do you think?

Butkus

Veeshan wrote: »

when it comes to secondary though anything that takes a fighter for example might change all their skills to be more melee ordinated

Just something to take into account

Also im kinda hoping they make ranger a hybrid range/melee class you have range skills and a bit of melee mixed in (crowfall did rangers the best imo) they had a few melee combos and then range ability ontop of that

I can this as well. Summoner/fighter acting like a white lion from Warhammer or Summoner/rogue being a melee with a pet.

SmileGurney

Birqa wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASBctxQ2Fk
just linking the little unconfirmed leaks that we got so far.

does that sound more melee or range, what do you think?

Very little is known about the Summoner, but that alone would suggest a ranged class: a channelled ranged ability which applies snare.

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