Disable Evasion Rating (Physical/Magical Disable Evasion Rating)???

Disable Evasion Rating (Physical/Magical Disable Evasion Rating)???
I'm seeing these stats on gear pieces now. Are these stats supposed to equate to CC resistance? If so, please, PLEASE, reconsider implementation of these stats. Walk it back. These stats have no place in PVP.

When it comes to PVP we should have CC abilities, CC Break abilities, temporary CC immunity (from certain abilities and from being CCed). If landed, the effects of CC abilities should be guaranteed. Likewise, if CCed, CC Breaks and CC immunity should Dispel/Prevent being CCed in a guaranteed manner.

Introducing CC resistance to the game will essentially leave CCs up to RNG, diminishing skill, feeling bad and ultimately becoming super toxic. This will be especially problematic for classes whose role is defined by being able to control the battlefield with CC.

I played BDO for ~5 years. CC resistance exists in that game. For years, this was a huge point of contention from the PVP community, with most people agreeing that CC resist ruined the game and many people quitting over it. In a game where landing the first CC often determined the victor, CC being decided by RNG felt super bad. You could be in a position where your opponent makes a mistake, you engage to punish, but you still lose because your CC was resisted and the CC from their reaction to your punish landed. Felt super bad.

IMO RNG has no place in combat. Especially in PVP. This sentiment extends to the weapon combo system as well, but that's a whole other conversation to be had.

Please Intrepid, I implore you, DO NOT implement CC resist.

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Blaspherian

To further express my point, think about it this way:

What's the strongest action a player can take against another player in a fight? Hard CC right? Well, let's say Disable Evasion exists in the game, let's say you can get up to 50% Disable Evasion from the stat on gear. Your strongest action against another player now only ever has a 50% chance of ever working. Disable Evasion now becomes the strongest stat in PVP. The gear meta now devolves into stacking as much Disable Evasion as possible, then stacking offense or defense. Pretty lame yeah?

Disable Evasion (CC Resist) fundamentally undermines and ignores skill and learned combat/class knowledge. If CC resist exists, there is little reason to learn other class kits/matchups/strengths/weaknesses because they're only ever gonna have a coin flip chance to CC you.

The only way I can see this stat existing in the game successfully is if the ONLY source of Disable Evasion comes from status effects. NEVER a stat on gear. Right now, Riled gives 30% Disable Evasion. If you see the Riled icon under your target enemy's nameplate, you then at least have the knowledge and can make the educated choice of whether to attempt a CC or to hold it. If Disable Evasion exists as a stat on gear then that value is unknown to you and the answer is always shit out your CCs as often as possible and hope for the best.

Ludullu

I do want some rng in pvp and resists to disables, but I'm definitely against this universal bs. If you're afraid of stuns - build your resistances against THAT, not against every god damn disable out there.

Same for slows, poisons, bleeds, anchors, roots, etc etc etc.

I hope that this kind of design comes with horizontal enchantment of gear, that we were promised, and that the universal stat will go away after that horizontality is implemented.

Blaspherian

Ludullu wrote: »

I do want some rng in pvp and resists to disables, but I'm definitely against this universal bs. If you're afraid of stuns - build your resistances against THAT, not against every god damn disable out there.

Same for slows, poisons, bleeds, anchors, roots, etc etc etc.

I hope that this kind of design comes with horizontal enchantment of gear, that we were promised, and that the universal stat will go away after that horizontality is implemented.

Sorry but I have to hard disagree here. We'll already have RNG in way of Evasion vs Accuracy. With those stats, at least you know when you miss an ability. You shouldn't expect a CC to land if your ability missed.

If we live in a world where Disable Evasion exists, whether it's a global catch-all stat or it's more granular/specified like your horizontal implementation, it will define the gear meta. People will just build resist for the most egregious CCs then deal with the leftovers. PVP will end up a slow-stacking shitfest.

I saw CC resist ruin BDO. I don't want to see the same happen to Ashes. If they're going to succeed where these other MMOs failed then they can't repeat the same mistakes. Curious, do you know of any games that successfully implemented CC resist like this? I'd be interested to know how they handled it.

Azherae

Isn't this a matter of preference though?

I definitely know people who don't think CC Resist was bad in BDO. It's just that those people don't play BDO because of the obvious outcome of that interaction.

Player A has CC resist, Player B loses to them in a fight because of it and complains that they're not actually good at the game and should uninstall, eventually Player A does actually uninstall.

From Player A's perspective, it's not CC Resist that ruined the game, but people whining about it. So any game which retained all the 'Player A' types while all the 'Player B' types quit, will be the example given of a successful implementation.

(Note, I also absolutely hate RNG CC so let's not turn this into you telling me personally how wrong I am).

Ludullu

Blaspherian wrote: »

Sorry but I have to hard disagree here. We'll already have RNG in way of Evasion vs Accuracy. With those stats, at least you know when you miss an ability. You shouldn't expect a CC to land if your ability missed.

I'm an extremist on this topic. I don't believe evasion/accuracy stat should have anything to do with ABILITIES. You're physically evading a fucking magic ability. To me that's bs. Magic is magic. It hits, but should be resistable/mitigatable - not evaded.

Blaspherian wrote: »

Curious, do you know of any games that successfully implemented CC resist like this? I'd be interested to know how they handled it.

As Azherae said, it's about preferences. L2's CCs had direct resists against them and people who built gear/buffs against those would then have better chances in pvp against them.

And to everyone I played with across 12 years this seemed more than fair. Resistances would get to a point where using the CC with that effect would be pretty much a pointless waste of mana and cast time, so the opponent had to adapt their gameplay.

My main class relied quite heavily on its paralysis ability. People knew this and used a certain gear set that gave you 50% resist to paralysis. This set had a lower p.def value and was usually far below optimal for the dps output of classes that would wear it as defense. Majority of players of my class would only rely on the paralysis and magic atks (even though the class had amazing phys abilities too), so this set was widely used. I could then easily exploit this gear set, because I always used phys abilities of my class to the fullest, so anyone who'd wear this anti-paral set would have a disadvantage against me and would have to decide which they were more afraid of: my paralysis or my phys atks.

To me that sounds like a good "action - counteraction" pvp design. Some people would purely outskill me, while wearing the anti-paral set (and some classes would just be papers to my rock), while others would rely on defenses and would just outlive the paralysis, or just risk the chance of not getting paralyzed and killing me before they do.

Blaspherian

Azherae wrote: »

(Note, I also absolutely hate RNG CC so let's not turn this into you telling me personally how wrong I am).

lol noted.

I'm not saying 100% of people in BDO hated CC resist. But I do believe that people who were in favor (I don't actually remember anyone who was) or indifferent to it were either less skilled or less experienced players that maybe didn't get to the point of feeling its detrimental effects. It was often the case that veterans and more skilled players opposed it. I remember there was a whole community and discord put together to host tournaments and fights that strictly banned the use of CC resist crystals, in favor of a more even playing field based on skill, not RNG.

I already put this in my 2nd post, but the way I see it is that CC resist fundamentally undermines skill. I don't think it is preference, not in a game where the world is shaped through PVP. Where PVP is highly competitive, I think skill should be emphasized and rewarded. Not punished with a stat line on gear that says your buttons only work half the time. Where's the counter to Disable Evasion? Is it gonna be Disable Success Rating? Lol just delete those stats please, it's getting silly now.

I know I'm repeating myself, but It will inevitably define the gear meta. I'm calling it now, our gear options are gonna be capped Disable Evasion + Offense or capped Disable Evasion + Defense. I think PvP and the gearing for it will be far more interesting if this stuff is just swept under the rug now and forgotten about.
(I'll still play the game of course, but I'll bitch and moan the whole way

)

Ludullu

Blaspherian wrote: »

[Where's the counter to Disable Evasion? Is it gonna be Disable Success Rating? Lol just delete those stats please, it's getting silly now.

On the point of "which game did it well", L2 had this counter in the form of "this effect has a higher chance of proccing" on gear pieces (mostly specialized jewelry).

Blaspherian

Ludullu wrote: »

Blaspherian wrote: »

Sorry but I have to hard disagree here. We'll already have RNG in way of Evasion vs Accuracy. With those stats, at least you know when you miss an ability. You shouldn't expect a CC to land if your ability missed.

I'm an extremist on this topic. I don't believe evasion/accuracy stat should have anything to do with ABILITIES. You're physically evading a fucking magic ability. To me that's bs. Magic is magic. It hits, but should be resistable/mitigatable - not evaded.

LOL yeah I completely agree with you here. I've never been a fan of Evasion in any game. Alas, it prevails abroad. I've already conceded to its existence.

Ludullu wrote: »

As Azherae said, it's about preferences. L2's CCs had direct resists against them and people who built gear/buffs against those would then have better chances in pvp against them.

And to everyone I played with across 12 years this seemed more than fair. Resistances would get to a point where using the CC with that effect would be pretty much a pointless waste of mana and cast time, so the opponent had to adapt their gameplay.

My main class relied quite heavily on its paralysis ability. People knew this and used a certain gear set that gave you 50% resist to paralysis. This set had a lower p.def value and was usually far below optimal for the dps output of classes that would wear it as defense. Majority of players of my class would only rely on the paralysis and magic atks (even though the class had amazing phys abilities too), so this set was widely used. I could then easily exploit this gear set, because I always used phys abilities of my class to the fullest, so anyone who'd wear this anti-paral set would have a disadvantage against me and would have to decide which they were more afraid of: my paralysis or my phys atks.

To me that sounds like a good "action - counteraction" pvp design. Some people would purely outskill me, while wearing the anti-paral set (and some classes would just be papers to my rock), while others would rely on defenses and would just outlive the paralysis, or just risk the chance of not getting paralyzed and killing me before they do.

Interesting. I never played L2, but this is a good example. If we get meaningful ways to counter or work around CC resist then I suppose it could be tolerable. I just don't want us to end up in a spot where certain CC types or more importantly, certain classes, are rendered useless and our gear path becomes pre-defined/obvious/set on rails. If we get enough CC variety in our kits or the downsides to spec into CC resist are potent enough to render that concern moot, then fair enough.

almnast

Just here to upvote this. I DO NOT want CC evasion. It takes all skill expression out of being able to punish someone for making a mistake in a PvP scenario. If you fuck up I should be able to come in with a CC ability an expect that CC to hit.

Also kind of related, but this is advertised as a PvX game, and I don't want to HAVE to switch gear sets if someone or group comes to contest a POI. Small tweaks for Node/Seige, sure, but for most everyday play I want to be able to stay in one gear set without feeling like I'm at a severe disadvantage in one scenario or another.

Azherae

But the person with the high CC Resist/evasion is expressing their skill by baiting you into a response that won't work, aren't they?

I'm just moreso pointing out here that this 'argument' never ends because people have fundamentally different goals and ideas of what this genre should work like. Ashes has chosen to be a game with CC Resists of the evasion type (and people have been expressing their dislike of this for 4 years, I figure if they were going to change that, they'd have done it).

almnast

Azherae wrote: »

But the person with the high CC Resist/evasion is expressing their skill by baiting you into a response that won't work, aren't they?

Itemization =/= skill

Blaspherian

Azherae wrote: »

But the person with the high CC Resist/evasion is expressing their skill by baiting you into a response that won't work, aren't they?

Hmm. I'm confused. We must just see things completely differently, because what you're describing right there to me isn't skill. It's the opposite of it. It takes zero skill to choose a stat to spec into on gear. It's not the player that's stopping the CC, or creating the bait, it's the stat. It's a set it and forget it decision. Let the gear do your job. Skill would be something like: feign a long cast skill to bait an engage, punish that or let yourself get CCed(knowing that their gap closer and best CC is now on CD), CC break and punish or eat the damage and hold (knowing you have 10 sec immunity) until you can drop a burst combo on them while CC immune or disengage, reassess etc.

Azherae wrote: »

I'm just moreso pointing out here that this 'argument' never ends because people have fundamentally different goals and ideas of what this genre should work like. Ashes has chosen to be a game with CC Resists of the evasion type (and people have been expressing their dislike of this for 4 years, I figure if they were going to change that, they'd have done it).

Idk. I've followed this game on and off since kickstarter. I don't frequent the forums so maybe that's why, but I don't remember ever hearing anything about Disable Evasion until the stat patch that went through this week. Maybe I've just spent more time in A2 and I'm paying more attention now. If I knew this was part of the game I would've bitched sooner. Anyway, my 2c on the subject I guess.

Ace1234

I hate output rng. I think people get caught up in the idea of "output rng can reinforce and feed into input rng", but there are plenty of opportunities for input rng by simply relying on the dynamic nature of player behaviors, skill variance, and branching decision making (providing the combat system is deep enough to allow room for variety of different combat outcomes). If this is the case, having enough input rng for dynamic combat happens organically and doesn't need help from output rng, so I think focusing on that does more harm than good to the feel of the combat imo.

I mean, look at fighting games. Most of them don't really include much output rng at all. In those games if you hit your opponent you get rewarded for it. Yet they have some of the most complex and dynamic combat systems in all of gaming due to said player behaviors I mentioned earlier. Why is output rng necessary for combat? I dont get it.

So yeah I hate the rng cc resist, and any other waterfall stat that determines any given combat interaction (like evasion/accuracy overriding manual dodging/attacking), rather than letting the ability usage do its job.

Apok

If there's any way to mitigate anything CC through modifiers on gear, it should be reductions in time. I wouldn't mind some kind of attribute that reduces CC and DoT time by a percentage and make it cap at like 50% would help to counter some longer CC while not making it useless when used to stop someone for a moment or interrupt something.

Blaspherian

Ace1234 wrote: »

I hate output rng. I think people get caught up in the idea of "output rng can reinforce and feed into input rng", but there are plenty of opportunities for input rng by simply relying on the dynamic nature of player behaviors, skill variance, and branching decision making (providing the combat system is deep enough to allow room for variety of different combat outcomes). If this is the case, having enough input rng for dynamic combat happens organically and doesn't need help from output rng, so I think focusing on that does more harm than good to the feel of the combat imo.

I mean, look at fighting games. Most of them don't really include much output rng at all. In those games if you hit your opponent you get rewarded for it. Yet they have some of the most complex and dynamic combat systems in all of gaming due to said player behaviors I mentioned earlier. Why is output rng necessary for combat? I dont get it.

So yeah I hate the rng cc resist, and any other waterfall stat that determines any given combat interaction (like evasion/accuracy overriding manual dodging/attacking), rather than letting the ability usage do its job.

This man gets it. You're spot on with the point that there's already enough RNG from the dynamic nature of player behavior. Like, if the game is going to deny the player the expected outcome of a situation where they made the 'correct' decision, for RNGs sake, that just feels cheap to me. If the game gives me tools (class kit) to use, then turns around and says, by the way, some of these tools don't actually work half of the time. Well then you can't actually rely on your tools. That's just an unstable foundation for combat imo. I don't understand the design choice. If Ashes is gonna stick with this design, I'll still play the game, but I won't take it as seriously as I'd been expecting to. And I'll never see it as this mega competitive PVP game it's building itself up to be.

Birqa

do we know if the disable resistance is new as a stat on gear? and attributes?

so far the core concept for tank was to lower the disable res by staggering everyone constantly. so thats not a new thing, while fighter and now rogue i believe have some disable resistance.
so afaik it was only archetype/statuseffect specific resistance ingame and i was fine by that because class knowledge could help me counter or work with it.
i neither want general nor specific cc resistance on gear for the above mentioned reasons. i also played bdo and it was a big painpoint for a lot of people.
my only idea, when the gamedesign is build around having it is that it needs to be at proper risk vs reward caculation. meaning that gear with cc resists has way lower other stats. but then we end up with the issue that we need to switch gear as soon as someones contesting your pve or gathering.

a difficult topic but since its ingrained into tank and fighter already it seems like its here to stay. so the question is more about how to balance it for a skillful gameplay experience?

almnast

Birqa wrote: »

do we know if the disable resistance is new as a stat on gear? and attributes?

a difficult topic but since its ingrained into tank and fighter already it seems like its here to stay. so the question is more about how to balance it for a skillful gameplay experience?

I don't have any issue with skills having CC res/eva. Those are buffs you can see on the players, and play around them. The issue comes in when its on gear and is an unknowable quantity.

Azherae

Birqa wrote: »

a difficult topic but since its ingrained into tank and fighter already it seems like its here to stay. so the question is more about how to balance it for a skillful gameplay experience?

It was obviously impossible to balance BDO relative to CC Resist because BDO was basically entirely about mobility and CC Resist (and ofc the fact that you could sometimes build actual evasion so high that neither of those was necessary).

And if you're not the type that considers 'stat building' to be a part of MMORPG skill, then I'm not sure Ashes is supposed to be appealing in the first place. It just isn't that skill-based otherwise. Sure, it seems that way at first, but a little muscle memory handles that.

So for many people, who like the idea of stats being part of strategy (I can link a previous discussion thread, or two), it's already hitting that sweet spot of a skillful gameplay experience.

What's your opinion on Guild Wars PvP? (either or both versions)

Rusk

Okay so I think there's an important sentiment that needs to be established here; what is the benefit to including disability evasion rating? Genuinely. It does make the game more complex, but I don't think added complexity makes a game more compelling on its own. Also if it becomes such a pervasive stat to include, it could have the opposite effect. It actually streamlines the game into a mandatory stat allocation because CC prevention is king. There's a reason that diminishing returns exists in practically every competitive PVP game. Because inhibiting your opponent from being able to do anything is stronger than any damage, healing, etc. and having an unlimited cap on the strongest resource in the game leads to toxic gameplay (or lack there of for the person getting perpetually CC'd into oblivion). So the idea of having ways to counteract it is important, but we have the already referenced diminishing returns as well as the disability mitigation stat. Both of which are substantially more trackable and don't completely invalidate CC as a mechanic, particularly in erratic ways. Not to mention abilities in the archetype kits to counteract CC too. So then why would we also add a stat that completely deletes CC from happening in a more variable/random format? From a compelling, more interesting competitive standpoint - I can't find a reason.

So then... does the game become more fun to include this as a mechanic, and if so, how? Obviously this gets a bit more esoteric as to "who has fun from what," but let's try. Paralleling this to something like critical hit chance, which could also determine a fight via RNG, I think is a good starting point. The perspective of hitting that really big damage number has enjoyment behind it. A moment where your power "goes beyond" and you see a quantifiable number that supersedes normal expectation. There is hype in that. You can say that that too is enjoyment at the detriment of another player, but to some capacity any PVP game can/will be perceived that way. Conversely, if I CC evade my opponent because I opted into disability evasion rating, I'm not doing something strong myself, I'm invalidating someone else's strength. And trust me, that unstoppable wall concept also has a huge draw to it. That being said, the places where disability evasion rating will matter most is in the extremely low TTK moments, typically DPS vs DPS, where one properly landed CC could make or break the fight. Not in the scenario where the tank holds the line versus countless enemies. Also disability mitigation rating DOES have a fun aspect to it; urgency. When I've done MMO PVPing and my CC ends up only having half the duration, that creates an "Oh shit!" moment that I quickly have to reassess the best path forward. It rewards the person who opted into disability mitigation, but not in a way that is 100% abusive to the opponent. You take that through the lens of disability evasion and it's not urgency, it's just an "Okay I lost the coin flip, so I lose the fight." Nothing feels more invalidating than that.

TL;DR From my perspective there isn't a valuable mechanical or fun reason to include disability evasion, especially when we already have other compelling alternatives in the game now.

Ludullu

Rusk wrote: »

TL;DR From my perspective there isn't a valuable mechanical or fun reason to include disability evasion, especially when we already have other compelling alternatives in the game now.

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