Why a balanced power scaling is so important for Ashes

Hi guys, I've started watching Ashes Content again after some time off to see how far the game has come and overall I'm very impressed. The game is taking more and more shape and I'm surprised how much of my beloved Archeage is in it.

However, as a former passionate Archeage player, I'm also traumatized by all the mistakes that killed Archeage. Besides cheaters, RMT, RNG upgrade gear system, P2W and countless fresh starts, one of the big mistakes was the power scaling in Archeage, which was a pure one shot fieasta in open world PvP (Power Scaling /TTK). With this the game has cannabalized itself. After watching some PvP videos from Ashes, I unfortunately see strong tendencies in this direction. Don't get me wrong. In my opinion, power scaling now only has a tendency to become like in Archeage, but it is not yet. But with increasing progress it can become that. Please keep in mind that I'm primarily talking about the power scaling and TTK that affects the relationship between low level/gear characters and high level/gear characters and not just the TTK between two equally strong characters.

A strong vertical power scaling (that leads to a too low TTK) has many negative effects on MMORPG's, especially with open world PvP:

1. ashes (like any MMORPG) will eventually rely on new players to keep the server population young. New players would only experience frustration in their PvP experience for a long time without the feeling of having a chance in the foreseeable future. No matter what level, no matter what gear level - players in a good PvP MMORPG game must feel that they have a chance somehow or at some point. But if you always get one or two shots, it seems pointless. Again, please do not misunderstand. I don't want a low level/gear character to have a real chance against a high level/gear character. It should just be balanced so that a new player sees the chance and has a tangible idea of it. This is the only way to encourage motivation (among other things) to make progress in order to be able to do PvP.
2. if the power scaling in Ashes remains like this and the vertical gear progression continues after release, the stats per level and per gear level go higher and higher, at the same time Ashes needs new players at some point, then catchup mechanics will be added, as you would in any other MMORPG, to keep new players. These catchup mechanics in most cases devalue the earned progress of the old players. Catchup mechanics are much easier to implement in retrospect than rebuilding all the stat multipliers from scratch. The less stat multipliers, the better. If you don't add a catch up mechanic in an MMORPG with too much power scaling, the game will die -> Archeage.
3. Leveling, gearing and progression in general takes a long time in Ashes (which is a good thing!), but that combined with such TTK/power scaling and open world PvP will be hell for any new player or returning players with low level who wants to play a few months after release or after new content, even for someone who is open to open world pvp, grind and risk vs reward concept.
4. The corruption system will provide protection for low lvl players, but new players or returnees will still feel useless for probably months if a caravan fight takes place, if your node is attacked or other events where the corruption system is not active. I would definitely want to be involved as a low level player and feel somewhat useful in the time i am leveling. Ashes will be an MMORPG where there will be a lot of interaction between low and high level players if there is a healthy amount of new players. But how fun would it be if the power scaling was so balanced that a small group of 5 low level characters could be dangerous for a high level player. Then the corruption system would also protect high level players from low level players in such cases.
5. If the connection between low level and high level is still tangible, then Ashes wouldn't be an MMORPG where it's all about 6etting to the endgame quickly so that you can finally get involved.
6. If Ashes becomes a game where it's all about getting to the endgame because you feel useless and weak at low level, then at some point the leveling phase will have to be shortened and sped up.
7. Even PvE in low level areas becomes meaningless in many aspects if the power of players goes too high.
8. so please, everyone, think about the future and keep the power scaling as low as possible so that it doesn't escalate later.

The disadvantages of such power scaling outnumber the advantages. This leads, as in any other MMORPG with such power scaling, to low and high level characters being very far apart, endgame mentality, frustration and lack of new players. Lack of new players will eventually lead to catch-up mechanics being added, leveling will run faster to get to the endgame quicker that devalues all the early and mid-game.. Come on guys, we know this from 1000 other MMORPG's.

Ultimately, the point is that the power scaling (and thus also the TTK) is balanced in such a way that a low level character sees some small chance of being useful if he plays better, if he organizes himself better. Time investment should not determine power to this extent, whether in the early, mid or late game. However, in all cases a high level character should have a clear advantage, but not be god-like like an end game world boss compared to a lvl 1 noob.

You get stronger stats from each higher level, just from the level itself. I would either remove this completely or reduce it to such an extent that (later) a level 50 character only has twice as much power as a LvL 1 character. You should only get more power through gear.

In the best case only the strongest character with the best gear can one shoot a naked level 1 character. If the power scaling on a Y axis has a slope of about 10-20 degrees over a very long period of Progressiontime (X axis), I think that would be very healthy. We don't need super saiyan power scaling.

To be honest, I also don't understand why the power scaling is so vertical. I only know something like that from Korean P2W MMORPG's, which wants to create buying incentives for their RNG Gear Upgrade System.

What do you think? Are the Alpha 2 players happy with the Power Scalin? How does it feel as you level and progress through your gear? If you were to spontaneously draw this on a coordinate axis, what would the Y slope be? Feel free to make a small drawing

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Comments

SmileGurney

I haven't played in Phase "2.5", but I don't think much has changed since the last TTK changes. TTK now is in a good spot I would say. Careful what footage your are watching, there is a lot of clips out there which are from the times before the TTK / stat changes. Back then people were rocking insane power levels (400-600 range).
These days you start feeling harsh diminishing returns around 200 (?) power level.

Now there is some space for smarter stat distribution, and people no longer just pump stats which boost damage. Investing into other stats like healing power, mitigations, HP, evasion, life-leech etc starts making sense.

Sophisticus

Let's say I'm a lvl 5 character with gray and blue gear, could most lvl 25 DPS characters with good gear one or two shoot?

Ludullu

Sophisticus wrote: »

Let's say I'm a lvl 5 character with gray and blue gear, could most lvl 25 DPS characters with good gear one or two shoot?

Most likely yes, because that's too big of a difference. I understand your preferrence from the OP, but imo that would lead to waaaaay too slow of a pvp design in the lategame. Ashes is not a horizontal mmo, so we can't really have that kind of ttk balancing.

And I'm already one of the very few people that want a slower ttk than even what we have rn, but your suggestion is too slow even for me.

SmileGurney

Sophisticus wrote: »

Let's say I'm a lvl 5 character with gray and blue gear, could most lvl 25 DPS characters with good gear one or two shoot?

With that level gap absolutely. You probably have what, 300HP? That's 2 auto-attacks with slower, harder hitting weapons.

Sophisticus

Ludullu wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

Let's say I'm a lvl 5 character with gray and blue gear, could most lvl 25 DPS characters with good gear one or two shoot?

Most likely yes, because that's too big of a difference. I understand your preferrence from the OP, but imo that would lead to waaaaay too slow of a pvp design in the lategame. Ashes is not a horizontal mmo, so we can't really have that kind of ttk balancing.

And I'm already one of the very few people that want a slower ttk than even what we have rn, but your suggestion is too slow even for me.

I also understand your point of view. I've watched a few newer PvP videos, 1v1, small group and large group. The TTK seems almost perfect to me. But these are characters at the same level and probably at a similar gear level. As you say, in the late game it's fine as it is.

It will be problematic for the game in the long term if the TTK/power scaling between new (low) and old (high) players is far too vertical. We are just at the beginning of this power scaling. What will it look like when you have reached the maximum level of 50 at release if this power scaling is maintained?

Leveling, gearing and progression in general takes a long time in Ashes (which is a good thing!), but that combined with such TTK/power scaling and open world PvP will be hell for any new player or returning players with low level who wants to play a few months after release or after new content, even for someone who is open to open world pvp, grind and risk vs reward concept.

I really don't want to see the first catch-up mechanics in the game 6 months after release, that all the progress I made before has been simplified, accelerated and thus devalued. instead of having a good power scaling from the beginning that works well between low level vs high level as well as in the late game.

Archeage and Black Desert show very well where it leads when these things are combined (long Leveling, gearing and progression, short TTK / super vertical powr scaling). Archeage is dead and Black Desert has killed its own open world PvP and gives away gear progression every 4 months (catch up mechanic) that you were grinding and sweating for 3 months ago.

Sophisticus

In my opinion, Vanilla WoW or Albion Online had great power scaling between low level and high level characters. No one-shots at all and you could beat a level 60 player at level 50 if you tried harder. And even so, the TTK between characters of roughly equal power was fast enough that it wasn't boring, but slow enough that you could use all your skills and have time to react

Ludullu

Sophisticus wrote: »

It will be problematic for the game in the long term if the TTK/power scaling between new (low) and old (high) players is far too vertical. We are just at the beginning of this power scaling. What will it look like when you have reached the maximum level of 50 at release if this power scaling is maintained?

I don't think Steven intends on low lvl players fighting high lvl players. Corruption system accounts for this and punishes the highbie a ton for the kill. We'll also see player lvls and rough gear power in their nameplates for this reason as well.

We still dunno how lawless zones will choose their next POI target, so I might be wrong in my assumption and Steven might not give a single flying fuck that highbies will genocide lowbies endlessly in those zones and lowbies won't be able to progress normally because of that - but we'll have to see.

I do agree that gear scaling should be tight enough for a 10lvl difference to not feel like an absolute annihilation of the lower lvled player. And we seem to be moving in that general direction, with the diminishing returns on stats and all that.

Sophisticus

Ludullu wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

It will be problematic for the game in the long term if the TTK/power scaling between new (low) and old (high) players is far too vertical. We are just at the beginning of this power scaling. What will it look like when you have reached the maximum level of 50 at release if this power scaling is maintained?

I don't think Steven intends on low lvl players fighting high lvl players. Corruption system accounts for this and punishes the highbie a ton for the kill. We'll also see player lvls and rough gear power in their nameplates for this reason as well.

I understand. But I see that as a problem if such fights are not planned from the beginning. The corruption system will provide protection for low lvl players, but new players or returnees will still feel useless for probably months if a caravan fight takes place, if your node is attacked or other events where the corruption system is not active. I would definitely want to be involved as a low level player and feel somewhat useful. Ashes will be an MMORPG where there will be a lot of interaction between low and high level players if there is a healthy amount of new players.

Ludullu wrote: »

I do agree that gear scaling should be tight enough for a 10lvl difference to not feel like an absolute annihilation of the lower lvled player. And we seem to be moving in that general direction, with the diminishing returns on stats and all that.

i hope ur right man

Aszkalon

Sophisticus wrote: »

as a former passionate Archeage player, I'm also traumatized by all the mistakes that killed Archeage.

1. ashes (like any MMORPG) will eventually rely on new players to keep the server population young. New players would only experience frustration in their PvP experience for a long time without the feeling of having a chance in the foreseeable future. No matter what level, no matter what gear level - players in a good PvP MMORPG game must feel that they have a chance somehow or at some point. But if you always get one or two shots, it seems pointless. Again, please do not misunderstand. I don't want a low level/gear character to have a real chance against a high level/gear character. It should just be balanced so that a new player sees the chance and has a tangible idea of it. This is the only way to encourage motivation (among other things) to make progress in order to be able to do PvP.

I am remembered when shortly during " WoW Vanilla " -> there was this System implemented that made Kills into either honorable Kills -> or ruthless Murders.

Ruthless Murders didn't bestow any Reputation onto the Player like a honorable Kill would in Comparison. But it also didn't punish the Player.

I know exactly what you mean with that the Game is not allowed to feel insanely frustrating for newer Players with a lower Level -> in Order for the Game to survive and not die Months or a Year after Release.

But hands down here -> it all comes down to if murdering Low-Level Players is getting punished. And if You ask me, a NON-NERFED VERSION of the current Corruption-System would just be the funny Solution to keep Players from terrorizing Newbies who have no Chance against a Character of like +Level 34 or so with high Gear which the new Players have about Zero Chance to ever take down.

Imagine You -> for whatever Reason You should ever decide to behave so douchy -> venture out into the World, to gank some Newbies.

You kill One Player.
You kill Two Players.
You kill "TEN" Players.
Maybe even Twenty.
Maybe even FOURTY!!!!!

Maybe even FAR MORE People -> until You hit +100 killed Newbies in like the Span of a few Days.

But here comes the funny catch. You still get flagged like murdering an innocent Player during Phase 1 and Phase 2 of the Alpha Two.

Means something kills You for becoming corrupted -> You lose like One to THREE Pieces of Loot depending on how lucky or unlucky you are. And you can most likely be killed over several times before your Corruption-Status is lifted again.

Corruption needs to get nerfed somewhat during Release i think -> so that Players who battle like for Example over Ore's, Trees to chop down -> or Herbs to gather -> can get corrupted if they must -> without their Character completely being destroyed in Gear-Progress in the next Hour or several.

But what about when a Character ganks other Characters who have "ZERO - CHANCE" to ever fight back ?

Should the Corruption be stronger then ?

it could make sense that murdering the totally helpless is a more vile and evil-hearted Deed, than killing someone who could at least attempt to put up a decent fight against you.

Sophisticus

Aszkalon wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

as a former passionate Archeage player, I'm also traumatized by all the mistakes that killed Archeage.

1. ashes (like any MMORPG) will eventually rely on new players to keep the server population young. New players would only experience frustration in their PvP experience for a long time without the feeling of having a chance in the foreseeable future. No matter what level, no matter what gear level - players in a good PvP MMORPG game must feel that they have a chance somehow or at some point. But if you always get one or two shots, it seems pointless. Again, please do not misunderstand. I don't want a low level/gear character to have a real chance against a high level/gear character. It should just be balanced so that a new player sees the chance and has a tangible idea of it. This is the only way to encourage motivation (among other things) to make progress in order to be able to do PvP.

I am remembered when shortly during " WoW Vanilla " -> there was this System implemented that made Kills into either honorable Kills -> or ruthless Murders.

Ruthless Murders didn't bestow any Reputation onto the Player like a honorable Kill would in Comparison. But it also didn't punish the Player.

I know exactly what you mean with that the Game is not allowed to feel insanely frustrating for newer Players with a lower Level -> in Order for the Game to survive and not die Months or a Year after Release.

But hands down here -> it all comes down to if murdering Low-Level Players is getting punished. And if You ask me, a NON-NERFED VERSION of the current Corruption-System would just be the funny Solution to keep Players from terrorizing Newbies who have no Chance against a Character of like +Level 34 or so with high Gear which the new Players have about Zero Chance to ever take down.

Imagine You -> for whatever Reason You should ever decide to behave so douchy -> venture out into the World, to gank some Newbies.

You kill One Player.
You kill Two Players.
You kill "TEN" Players.
Maybe even Twenty.
Maybe even FOURTY!!!!!

Maybe even FAR MORE People -> until You hit +100 killed Newbies in like the Span of a few Days.

But here comes the funny catch. You still get flagged like murdering an innocent Player during Phase 1 and Phase 2 of the Alpha Two.

Means something kills You for becoming corrupted -> You lose like One to THREE Pieces of Loot depending on how lucky or unlucky you are. And you can most likely be killed over several times before your Corruption-Status is lifted again.

Corruption needs to get nerfed somewhat during Release i think -> so that Players who battle like for Example over Ore's, Trees to chop down -> or Herbs to gather -> can get corrupted if they must -> without their Character completely being destroyed in Gear-Progress in the next Hour or several.

But what about when a Character ganks other Characters who have "ZERO - CHANCE" to ever fight back ?

Should the Corruption be stronger then ? it could make sense that murdering the totally helpless is a more vile and evil-hearted Deed, than killing someone who could at least attempt to put up a decent fight against you.

The Corruption System may or may not be nerfed. That's less my concern here. The Corruption System is primarily there to prevent high level characters from attacking low level characters. That is good. But how funny would it be if the power scaling was too balanced that a small group of 5 low level characters could be dangerous for a high level player. Then the corruption system would also protect high level players from low level players in such cases.

Ultimately, the point is that the power scaling (and thus also the TTK) is balanced in such a way that a low level character sees some small chance of being useful if he plays better, if he organizes himself better. Time investment should not determine power to the same extent, whether in the early, mid or late game. However, in all cases a high level character should have a clear advantage, but not be god-like like an end game world boss compared to a lvl 1 noob.

If the connection between low level and high level is still tangible, then Ashes wouldn't become an MMORPG where it's all about getting to the endgame quickly so that you can finally get involved.

Aszkalon

Sophisticus wrote: »

The Corruption System may or may not be nerfed. That's less my concern here.

Pretty sure it IS getting nerfed later. But it will be adjusted.

So that Players will be punished more heavily if they continuously keep up murdering others.

Or probably as i guess -> and if they keep on terrorizing Players FAR. BELOW. their own Level/Power.

Sophisticus wrote: »

The Corruption System is primarily there to prevent high level characters from attacking low level characters. That is good. But how funny would it be if the power scaling was too balanced that a small group of 5 low level characters could be dangerous for a high level player. Then the corruption system would also protect high level players from low level players in such cases.

What about the classical Case/Trap ?

One "Lowbie" Player attacks a higher Level Player.
Then the "higher Level Player" attacks back -> because he/she is confident to win.

-> Both are being flagged for PvP. (Purple)

Then,
-> the two to five or more "Friends" of the other Lowbie-Player attack the SINGLE High-Level Player while their Bait/Sacrifice-Friend gets turned into a pile of Ash.

-> The jumped High-Level Player dies -> if he/she can not get away fast enough.

The Lowbies giggle and snicker, probably resembling sneaky Goblin Noises. (lol)

Sophisticus

Aszkalon wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

The Corruption System may or may not be nerfed. That's less my concern here.

Then,
-> the two to five or more "Friends" of the other Lowbie-Player attack the SINGLE High-Level Player while their Bait/Sacrifice-Friend gets turned into a pile of Ash.

-> The jumped High-Level Player dies -> if he/she can not get away fast enough.

But is it currently possible for 2-5 low level players (lvl 5 players) to kill a high level player (lvl 25)?

Aszkalon

Sophisticus wrote: »

But is it currently possible for 2-5 low level players (lvl 5 players) to kill a high level player (lvl 25)?

I would think more like +30 to +50 People of Level 5 to 10 would be needed for that.

If it's "just" Five People against One Player of for Example LvL 25 -> then by my rough Estimation the Players would all need to be around LvL 17 to 21 or so -> but they are not allowed to be anywhere significantly weaker/lower than these Levels.

Maybe i overestimate or underestimate the Situation a bit -> depending on how well the lower Level Players perform in Combat -> and of Course how well the LvL 25 Player performs.

Player Skill played even a part during WoW Vanilla, back then. And Ashes has some Elements that remind me on VERY early State World of Warcraft.

Sophisticus

Aszkalon wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

But is it currently possible for 2-5 low level players (lvl 5 players) to kill a high level player (lvl 25)?

I would think more like +30 to +50 People of Level 5 to 10 would be needed for that.

If it's "just" Five People against One Player of for Example LvL 25 -> then by my rough Estimation the Players would all need to be around LvL 17 to 21 or so -> but they are not allowed to be anywhere significantly weaker/lower than these Levels.

Then that's an absurdly strong vertical power scaling that ultimately results in catch-up mechanics, faster leveling and endgame mentality.

You get stronger stats from each higher level, just from the level itself. I would either remove this completely or reduce it to such an extent that (later) a level 50 character only has twice as much power as a LvL 1 character.

You should only get more power through gear.

nanfoodle

I have been part of this game since the kick starter. If skill does not become the driving force behind who wins a fight. Within a 30% boost of power or lower. I will be walking away. I would be a big fan if Ashes had no more then a 10% boost in power from gear. I would be thrilled. I get Steven is not the best gamer. He may love the idea of owning in PvP because he will have the best gear always.

Real PvPers will leave this game in droves if its populated by toxic PvPer. What he is designing is the croud he will cater to. When people are driven away from not being able to defend themselves, the toxic players will end up leaving because they will lose most of their pray. This has been the failed plan of many PvP MMOs over the years. Ashes is following this same pattern. I am disappointed this seems to be where we are going. I thought this game would be going in a different direction.

Ludullu

nanfoodle wrote: »

I thought this game would be going in a different direction.

Didn't we all...

iccer

This is my main concern currently.

It's not even about the level difference.

Let's say you have a fresh max level player with green gear. Player #1.

Then you have another max level player with purple gear. Player #2.

Let's assume they both have the same skill level, are playing the same class, and same build.

What is the power difference between the two? Does Player #2 oneshot Player #1? Does it take 3-4 hits?

In any case, if it takes less than 10 seconds for Player #2 to kill Player #1, there is a problem already.

The power curve itself wouldn't be such a huge issue, if Player #1 can easily get full purple in a few days - but most likely, that won't be the case. All you have here is stronger, hardcore players, who spend a lot of time playing the game, always being on top, while more casual players won't be able to catch up in any reasonable time.

Ideally, class and build choice should account for 30% of your power (certain classes will counter others, also build choice also accounts for armor type and weapon types you use, vs your opponent).
Gear should account for maybe 30% of your power at most.
The rest should be your skill as a player, knowing where and when to fight, when to use what abilities, etc.

This is a rough idea, with rough numbers, assuming we are talking about players of the same level. This means if you have better gear than your opponent, and your build, gear, and weapon choices counter your opponent, you only have around 60% more power than them. The rest is determined by your and your opponent's skill, which means even though they are at real disadvantage, they still have a chance to fight back and maybe win. You cannot have this if TTK is less than ~7-10 seconds.

Aszkalon

Sophisticus wrote: »

Then that's an absurdly strong vertical power scaling that ultimately results in catch-up mechanics, faster leveling and endgame mentality.

You get stronger stats from each higher level, just from the level itself. I would either remove this completely or reduce it to such an extent that (later) a level 50 character only has twice as much power as a LvL 1 character.

You should only get more power through gear.

Actually a very good Comment, Yes. I think this was also the Discussion during the last Month or so - and probably they will adjust Player Powers a little bit more into that Direction.

I personally like how it was said since a Year or several that "Gear" will also make a noticeable Difference.

Sophisticus

The same core problems that we know from 100 other MMORPG's will lead to the same problematic solutions. Almost 30 years of MMORPG history proves this.

And the saying “This game is not for everyone” no longer applies here. We want dynamic open world PvP, we want risk va reward, we want consequences, long leveling phases, social interactions and we want player agancy. But we don't want this kind of power scaling. The vast majority of people will not enjoy it, even those at the top of the power scaling hierarchy.

Azherae

Though to be fair, if the combat is even average in complexity, the same problems are going to occur even if the gear is tuned well...

And a game with tightly tuned gear often has to create interest through non-simplistic combat, so I'd say to Intrepid to remember that getting the gear scaling right is barely 'step 1 of 4' and won't lead to significantly less complaining.

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