Gathering Contests and CCable Greens

This topic has been brought up again by some people in some places, so I wanted to lay out my alternative suggestion in a full thread.

I've suggested it in a few other places now, but I think the issue with "CCable greens to contest gathering" is easily solvable by just having an interrupt mechanic in the active process of gathering. You see someone gathering a rare mat? You can run up to it, start gathering it yourself and you'll have an option to stop the other gatherer's process.

This action

flags you up for pvp
puts a cd on the other gatherer's ability to gather this particular resource vein (could be just a few seconds)
prevents you from gathering the resource in that same interaction
you still gotta restart your own gathering process after this

And now the initial gatherer has a choice:

they can do the same to you and flag up
they can CC you and initiate full pvp
they can move on
they can call for someone to come and remove you through pvp if they see that you plan on interrupting them more

CD on the interrupt ability itself would need to be tested of course, but I think that matching it to the average CD of CCs across all archetypes would be fine, cause that'd be the reality of "CCable greens" approach.

To me, that sounds like a competitive PvX interaction w/o all the bs that would 100% come with a return to CCable greens.

Obviously this doesn't change the PvE mob grind side of contests, but that's a whooooole separate question of "when in the hell are we getting proper PvE in Ashes?".

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Volgaris

Seems like a mechanic to sidestep corruption. I think the point is that if you want to kill someone in the open world outside 'allowed' pvp events you have to be willing to be corrupted.

I'd prefer a fix that more encouraged people who wouldn't normally flag up for pvp to flag up. There's a reduced material loss if you flag. But you're still hit with exp debt and repair costs. Dying should suck, but dying from pvp should be less dreadful especially if you plan to continue pvp shenanigans.

Counter idea.
If you're flagged for PvP.
1. No exp debt. PK or Mob killed, doesn't matter. (timer to flag, or have to have been flagged for X time. So people don't flag at the last second.).
2. No durability loss if killed by a player. You still eat that if you're killed by a mob.
3. No materials lost to the void if PK'd. What would go to the void now is split between the PK'r and the PK'd. If killed by a mob? sure the mob gobbles half the materials you drop in your ash pit.

Sometimes I want to PvP sometimes I don't. The PvP flag would actually give people a motive to flag for their PvE sessions, right now If I want to PvE there's no reason for me to flag. I just ignore it. Maybe they want it that way? I think you should be able to ignore PvP if you want, not be free from it. But giving an actual incentive to players that want to PvE to actually flag for PvP would help.

JamesSunderland

That's definitely a mechanic that makes a lot of sense for Ashes, really want to see atleast a similar concept implemented.

Ludullu

Volgaris wrote: »

Seems like a mechanic to sidestep corruption. I think the point is that if you want to kill someone in the open world outside 'allowed' pvp events you have to be willing to be corrupted.

This got nothing to do with corruption, because it's about the contest of any given gatherable, rather than someone's bag.

Unless we go back to super low ttk, or are talking about massive power discrepance between the 2 gatherers - the attacker wouldn't not have enough time to PK their victim before the victim gathers the resource.

The people that want CCable greens want to contest gatherables by CCing their competitors. There'd be no corruption involved there either, because it's not about it.

You're always free to PK someone for their own loot or for the spot itself, but I'm talking about direct contest over currently present gatherables, but w/o returning to CCable greens.

As for your suggestion. I'm all for better pushes towards people flagging up, but removing death penalties on flagged people would simply make zerg the answer. And no matter how much you kill them in pvp - they don't lose power, so they can keep going back. Your suggestion was supposed to be the case in pvp events, which WOULD've pushed people pvp more and get used to it, but Steven HATES FUN and wants losers to "SUFFER". So I don't think this'll happen. Especially in the open world pvp.

Arya_Yeshe

I’d take a completely different approach. I’d add an action to claim a resource first. Once you claim it, you can safely gather it. But if someone else comes along and tries to claim the same resource, it would trigger a duel. The winner keeps the claim, and the resource gets locked for the loser.

The resource doesn’t need to be claimed, anyone can gather from it freely. However, once someone claims it, only claimants can gather from it from that point on, and they can duel over control. Claiming essentially locks the resource, restricting access to claimants only. Losers of a duel will be locked out as well.

So, in my approach, it’s much less stressful and dangerous. The consequences are lighter, but there’s still some friendly competition over the resource and a bit of consequences involved.

Ludullu

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

But if someone else comes along and tries to claim the same resource, it would trigger a duel.

By "trigger a duel", do you mean "immediate pvp where only the 2 people can fight each other and there's no death penalties to the loser"?

And if that's the case, then the main problem I see with this is that the second claimant would not be able to be removed from the premises by other people, so they'd be able to bully lowbies easily, while also not flagging up at all.

If you mean "both immediately flag up purple" - that sounds abusable as fuck.

And if it's an "initial claimant gets a duel challenge and can choose whether to accept" (refusal prevents them from gathering), then I could definitely foresee groups of people spamclaiming stuff even though they won't even collect it. And if it's a highbie group in a lowbie zone - that's a complete lockout on resources with no intent on collecting them, which, to me, sounds horrible.

Arya_Yeshe

What I didn’t mention earlier is that there should be a timer and a distance leash, if you wander far enough or just idle without and don't even gathering or win a duel then you lose the claim and you are locked out the resource.

Additionally, maybe people should be able to claim only one resource at a time.

Ludullu wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

But if someone else comes along and tries to claim the same resource, it would trigger a duel.

By "trigger a duel", do you mean "immediate pvp where only the 2 people can fight each other and there's no death penalties to the loser"?

Correct, that's how I envision it, a softer pvp for gatherers and if they can't fight each other under a certain amount of time then they both lose maybe.

Ludullu wrote: »

And if that's the case, then the main problem I see with this is that the second claimant would not be able to be removed from the premises by other people, so they'd be able to bully lowbies easily, while also not flagging up at all.

Yes, they are tied to that resource and other people should find another resource and go claim other resource. When you are just putting people into purple then they can cover all the resources around them, but if you claim one resource you get tied to that one.

Ludullu wrote: »

If you mean "both immediately flag up purple" - that sounds abusable as fuck.

And if it's an "initial claimant gets a duel challenge and can choose whether to accept" (refusal prevents them from gathering), then I could definitely foresee groups of people spamclaiming stuff even though they won't even collect it. And if it's a highbie group in a lowbie zone - that's a complete lockout on resources with no intent on collecting them, which, to me, sounds horrible.

I agree on refusal prevents them from gathering.

If you spam claims but don’t win a fight or successfully gather, your timer runs out and you get locked out of the resource, just as if you had lost a duel for the claim.

So:

Claim and you can claim only one resource at a time
Keep gathering until your claim timer runs out, then the claim ends and can claim it again
If others claim the same resource, a duel starts
If you refuse the duel, the resource gets locked for you
If you wander too far, it's treated like losing a duel, the resource gets locked for you
Win a duel and a few seconds are added to your claim timer

Ludullu

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

So:
Claim and you can claim only one resource at a time

Keep gathering until your claim timer runs out, then the claim ends and can claim it again

If others claim the same resource, a duel starts

If you refuse the duel, the resource gets locked for you

If you wander too far, it's treated like losing a duel, the resource gets locked for you

Win a duel and a few seconds are added to your claim timer

Yeah, I'd be fine with that. I'm almost sure all the "pvpers" will flip out over this, cause it's pretty much an instanced fight for pvers, but I do agree that this would provide a less stressful way to compete for mats.

daveywavey

Nah, if someone else has got there first, you have the choice to attack or to let them be. Doesn't need anything more than that.

Volgaris

I still see this as away to skirt corruption. A hat on a hat. I see the point of wanting to compete some how for a resource node. But isn't the race to click and the gathering speed enhancements on the gear the competition? You could CC and interrupt a non-flagged player, at least I think you could. A players aoe cc shouldn't affect other players unless they are flagged anyways, which I think is how it was changed. (right?). Either way I think the balance is there already. Camp the node, race to click, have faster gear. Or Camp the node and kill the competitors.

As far as the death penalties. I still stand by my suggestion. The zergers will zerg anyways. Chances are if you're not in the zerg you'll be getting mowed down anyways. If nothing is done, the incentive to PvP for me at least now is basically zero. The rewards don't out weight the risks. Is PvP fun?, sure, but it can easily be one step forward and 2 steps back. Basically all PvP doesn't happen on equal terms, it's 5 vs 1 or 20 vs 3 or some shit it's not really fun no which side you're one there. Hardly ever will a group of 5 go after a group 5. This is off topic but PvP > PvE doesn't mean PvX. And the design so far is an open world PvP game with the tiny corruption mechanic, that's a pretty low bar for a PvX design. Couple that with pseudo faction systems is basically just going to run the PvE players away. I don't think this game will survive long without a health PvE focused player base. So getting PvE players to PvP is a method to keep them engaged and playing for longer.

We do need a dual system. But a dual system to challenge a resource node? If I'm the first one to the node and started gathering, why would I accept your dual? I already won. If you want the resource node that bad you'll need to kill me for it. Maybe dual is the wrong word to use for that system, the first player would have to consent to it. Regardless of naming, still the same thing. It's a bandaid on the flawed PvX design.

hleV

... Just allow CCing greens while they're gathering.

Ludullu

daveywavey wrote: »

Nah, if someone else has got there first, you have the choice to attack or to let them be. Doesn't need anything more than that.

This would just create a meta of lowbie gatherers, where no one can attack them, because they'd risk insane corruption. This would then create meta of lowbie alts with crazy gear, which creates problems for newbies who'd try to just play the game.

And the situation itself would reduce competition for gatherables, which Steven wants.

Volgaris wrote: »

I still see this as away to skirt corruption. A hat on a hat. I see the point of wanting to compete some how for a resource node. But isn't the race to click and the gathering speed enhancements on the gear the competition? You could CC and interrupt a non-flagged player, at least I think you could.

This whole thread was created because you NO LONGER CAN CC greens. That's the point.

There's no corruption involved in contesting gatherables. Well, at least I don't think there should be, because no single gatherable is worth corruption. But I do think there should be proper competition for them.

As for gathering speed, yes, that is definitely another tool for the competition, but that could simply reinforce my suggestion. If you're faster than the opponent's movements and have faster gathering - you'll outpace even their interruption actions and won't need to flag up to contest the resources.

daveywavey

hleV wrote: »

... Just allow CCing greens while they're gathering.

Volgaris

Ludullu wrote: »

There's no corruption involved in contesting gatherables. Well, at least I don't think there should be, because no single gatherable is worth corruption. But I do think there should be proper competition for them.

But does it? I'm not so sure. Steven has said corruption is tuned high to keep PKing greens down so people can test. If there does need to be a mechanic on this we really wouldn't know until corruption is tuned.

Ludullu wrote: »

This whole thread was created because you NO LONGER CAN CC greens. That's the point.

I wasn't sure about the latest roles, probably worded bad.

I don't think greens should be able to be CC'd unless you are flagged for PvP. A Green casting an aoe cc on a green shouldn't have an affect. That'd just be cheesy. The aggressor is hiding behind the corruption penalty shield. So yes you should be able to CC greens IF you are flagged.

Ludullu wrote: »

This would just create a meta of lowbie gatherers

This is going to happen anyways. Passing gear to alts is going to happen. Nothing is BOP/BOE... So tweaking out alts will be a meta.

Ludullu

Volgaris wrote: »

But does it? I'm not so sure. Steven has said corruption is tuned high to keep PKing greens down so people can test. If there does need to be a mechanic on this we really wouldn't know until corruption is tuned.

Yes, and there'll hopefully be more PKing later on. But gatherables would still not be enough to justify it, even if the penalties are way lower.

But even if IT IS justifiable, I already addressed that. Unless ttk is super short - you will literally not be able to PK a person to contest a gatherable. My suggestion creates a way to contest it directly.

Volgaris wrote: »

I don't think greens should be able to be CC'd unless you are flagged for PvP. A Green casting an aoe cc on a green shouldn't have an affect. That'd just be cheesy. The aggressor is hiding behind the corruption penalty shield. So yes you should be able to CC greens IF you are flagged.

You cannot put a debuff on a green player, no matter what color you are. The target's state is what matters.

Volgaris wrote: »

This is going to happen anyways. Passing gear to alts is going to happen. Nothing is BOP/BOE... So tweaking out alts will be a meta.

Yes, it inevitably will, but having a system that I suggested would allow high lvl players to contest gatherables w/o risk of becoming insanely corrupt. And obviously people on alts would not flag up against those high lvl players.

And both newbies and those alts would be pushed to ask for help from guildies or nodemates, in order to remove the highbie from the location. This usually leads to big pvp fights between groups and guilds.

Arya_Yeshe

Ludullu wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

So:
Claim and you can claim only one resource at a time

Keep gathering until your claim timer runs out, then the claim ends and can claim it again

If others claim the same resource, a duel starts

If you refuse the duel, the resource gets locked for you

If you wander too far, it's treated like losing a duel, the resource gets locked for you

Win a duel and a few seconds are added to your claim timer

Yeah, I'd be fine with that. I'm almost sure all the "pvpers" will flip out over this, cause it's pretty much an instanced fight for pvers, but I do agree that this would provide a less stressful way to compete for mats.

Yes, I was considering in helping out the more PvE inclined people into having some level of PvP, so they can feel the waters first before becomming pvp addicts

Child Item