joelthunder wrote: » I'm not going to harp on the point but the leveling in this game is WAY too slow. To put it in perspective, I bought the game, wanted to like it, grinded to level 10 then realized I wasn't having fun. The leveling needs to be massively increased. Probably cut down by 75% for me to ever play the game. I'm going to uninstall it now and will watch to see if they correct it. This method of engagement is very 2000s and doesn't work. Thanks.
joelthunder wrote: » This method of engagement is very 2000s and doesn't work.
AirborneBerserker wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » I'm not going to harp on the point but the leveling in this game is WAY too slow. To put it in perspective, I bought the game, wanted to like it, grinded to level 10 then realized I wasn't having fun. The leveling needs to be massively increased. Probably cut down by 75% for me to ever play the game. I'm going to uninstall it now and will watch to see if they correct it. This method of engagement is very 2000s and doesn't work. Thanks. This is statement lacks any kind of self awareness. The speed at which you level has no bearing on how fun the game is. Increasing the speed at which you level would only change the level you quit the game at. You need to be more precise with your criticism. What is boring? The combat? Not enough quests? Too narrow enemy options? Something else?
Ludullu wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » This method of engagement is very 2000s and doesn't work. That is literally the goal of the design. The game is simply not for you, if you get bothered by slow leveling. But Berserker is correct, your issue is not with the speed of leveling, it's with the gameplay itself, so if you want the game to change for the better - write out your issues with the gameplay. There's also a high chance that your issues will already be solved in the future, because the game is simply nowhere near finished, so the gameplay is trash right now. Though, from what I've heard, the PTR's first 10 lvls are getting more and more streamlined.
joelthunder wrote: » Ludullu wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » This method of engagement is very 2000s and doesn't work. That is literally the goal of the design. The game is simply not for you, if you get bothered by slow leveling. But Berserker is correct, your issue is not with the speed of leveling, it's with the gameplay itself, so if you want the game to change for the better - write out your issues with the gameplay. There's also a high chance that your issues will already be solved in the future, because the game is simply nowhere near finished, so the gameplay is trash right now. Though, from what I've heard, the PTR's first 10 lvls are getting more and more streamlined. This is a HUGE red flag. Game theory says the game MUST be fun first. If at any time the gameplay loop isn't fun you're building the wrong game.
joelthunder wrote: » Leveling is too slow. I'm new. I'm quitting until it's changed.
Azherae wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » Ludullu wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » This method of engagement is very 2000s and doesn't work. That is literally the goal of the design. The game is simply not for you, if you get bothered by slow leveling. But Berserker is correct, your issue is not with the speed of leveling, it's with the gameplay itself, so if you want the game to change for the better - write out your issues with the gameplay. There's also a high chance that your issues will already be solved in the future, because the game is simply nowhere near finished, so the gameplay is trash right now. Though, from what I've heard, the PTR's first 10 lvls are getting more and more streamlined. This is a HUGE red flag. Game theory says the game MUST be fun first. If at any time the gameplay loop isn't fun you're building the wrong game. The problem is that for us, who like to play these games for long periods, to go 'slowly', and even 'to grind' in some cases, we don't share the understanding of what is fun in going faster. You did answer though, for you it's the endgame and the endgame community. If you have time, please give a few examples of what about that is fun but not accessible during leveling, because for me, at least, that's what I don't usually understand. There definitely are many reasons in design why 'fun ends up at endgame' for many games, but the Creative Director of this game intends for leveling to be slow, and therefore even if you don't play, the way you can help the most is to clarify what would make that slow leveling more fun or let it integrate more of whatever you are enjoying at 'normal MMO endgame'. (Disclaimer: My bias is to believe that mostly, MMO Devs just need to trick players by hiding a bunch of progression they don't see/understand until they are hooked, at the supposed endgame, so the only thing I could give feedback on to Ashes that would line up would be 'how to put that into leveling')
GreatPhilisopher wrote: » Azherae wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » Ludullu wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » This method of engagement is very 2000s and doesn't work. That is literally the goal of the design. The game is simply not for you, if you get bothered by slow leveling. But Berserker is correct, your issue is not with the speed of leveling, it's with the gameplay itself, so if you want the game to change for the better - write out your issues with the gameplay. There's also a high chance that your issues will already be solved in the future, because the game is simply nowhere near finished, so the gameplay is trash right now. Though, from what I've heard, the PTR's first 10 lvls are getting more and more streamlined. This is a HUGE red flag. Game theory says the game MUST be fun first. If at any time the gameplay loop isn't fun you're building the wrong game. The problem is that for us, who like to play these games for long periods, to go 'slowly', and even 'to grind' in some cases, we don't share the understanding of what is fun in going faster. You did answer though, for you it's the endgame and the endgame community. If you have time, please give a few examples of what about that is fun but not accessible during leveling, because for me, at least, that's what I don't usually understand. There definitely are many reasons in design why 'fun ends up at endgame' for many games, but the Creative Director of this game intends for leveling to be slow, and therefore even if you don't play, the way you can help the most is to clarify what would make that slow leveling more fun or let it integrate more of whatever you are enjoying at 'normal MMO endgame'. (Disclaimer: My bias is to believe that mostly, MMO Devs just need to trick players by hiding a bunch of progression they don't see/understand until they are hooked, at the supposed endgame, so the only thing I could give feedback on to Ashes that would line up would be 'how to put that into leveling') a good game is a game fun from the start and at all stages, the end game being "the actual game" is bad, if i could give an example i guess elden ring maybe you dont care about the end game you are just exploring and having fun as for mmos maybe GW2 not perfect but close enough and maybe elder scrolls tho i didnt play that to know but i heard its leveling is fun or maybe the dungeons and dragons mmo ..etc being slow and grindy is not good neither being fast , you can be slower but you need to be fun and rewarding and that is something ashes is doing the opposite of because they just seem to have no idea what they are doing or wanting or they just refuse to actually improve the systems and stay stuck in the horrible design
joelthunder wrote: » The boredom comes in running to the board, getting the bounties, running out, killing 10 of X thing, running back. I love that you bring up self awareness since this is actually a core tenant of game theory. I am voicing a concern that many other players have. The content can not be the grind unless it's supplemented by content. Right now the game is a very simple kill grind. This is exactly what EQ was but EQ had no competition in the market. You can say UO or AC but 95% of players were on EQ. What killed EQ? WOW. I'm not glazing WOW here but the numbers don't lie. The pacing of levelling was MUCH better and not everyone quit once they hit max level. You know what they did? Played the real game. The real game in MMOs is the end game community and the content they have. If the developer's don't solve the leveling problem they will have no players for end game. I'm also not that interested in appeasing players that are on the forums. Your opinion matters the least. I'm not being rude there just stating a fact that opinions against yours have already left the game. You need to understand that the current player base will never give you valuable feedback to attract and retain players because they think it's "great". So, the the developers, you have a major problem here and you know if. Reduce the level grind by 75%. Add content that isn't kill X. You the Witcher III or Red Dead Redemption. The world needs life. Right now it's just boring.
joelthunder wrote: » I'm not being rude there just stating a fact that opinions against yours have already left the game. You need to understand that the current player base will never give you valuable feedback to attract and retain players because they think it's "great".
Azherae wrote: » GreatPhilisopher wrote: » Azherae wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » Ludullu wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » This method of engagement is very 2000s and doesn't work. That is literally the goal of the design. The game is simply not for you, if you get bothered by slow leveling. But Berserker is correct, your issue is not with the speed of leveling, it's with the gameplay itself, so if you want the game to change for the better - write out your issues with the gameplay. There's also a high chance that your issues will already be solved in the future, because the game is simply nowhere near finished, so the gameplay is trash right now. Though, from what I've heard, the PTR's first 10 lvls are getting more and more streamlined. This is a HUGE red flag. Game theory says the game MUST be fun first. If at any time the gameplay loop isn't fun you're building the wrong game. The problem is that for us, who like to play these games for long periods, to go 'slowly', and even 'to grind' in some cases, we don't share the understanding of what is fun in going faster. You did answer though, for you it's the endgame and the endgame community. If you have time, please give a few examples of what about that is fun but not accessible during leveling, because for me, at least, that's what I don't usually understand. There definitely are many reasons in design why 'fun ends up at endgame' for many games, but the Creative Director of this game intends for leveling to be slow, and therefore even if you don't play, the way you can help the most is to clarify what would make that slow leveling more fun or let it integrate more of whatever you are enjoying at 'normal MMO endgame'. (Disclaimer: My bias is to believe that mostly, MMO Devs just need to trick players by hiding a bunch of progression they don't see/understand until they are hooked, at the supposed endgame, so the only thing I could give feedback on to Ashes that would line up would be 'how to put that into leveling') a good game is a game fun from the start and at all stages, the end game being "the actual game" is bad, if i could give an example i guess elden ring maybe you dont care about the end game you are just exploring and having fun as for mmos maybe GW2 not perfect but close enough and maybe elder scrolls tho i didnt play that to know but i heard its leveling is fun or maybe the dungeons and dragons mmo ..etc being slow and grindy is not good neither being fast , you can be slower but you need to be fun and rewarding and that is something ashes is doing the opposite of because they just seem to have no idea what they are doing or wanting or they just refuse to actually improve the systems and stay stuck in the horrible design Ok but this still doesn't tell me anything relative to an MMO because it kinda assumes I have played GW2 (whether I have or not isn't the point, just as you've pointed out that you didn't really play ESO). For example, I like games with slow leveling, yet my current main game is Throne and Liberty, and I could go: "Even though I prefer slow leveling, here are the reasons why I don't feel really negative about the fast leveling in TL" and then give some reasons. This would help a different Dev who wanted to appeal to someone like me even though their game design is based on Fast leveling because they could then decide 'Oh, she might play if we add this' or 'oh, we shouldn't target this person because they will never be happy in our game' or even 'we can't target this person because adding the thing she wants would ruin our game'. But it's good to at least know. Devs really can't assume just 'a good game is good', because people like different things, and would help if they explained 'em.
GreatPhilisopher wrote: » Azherae wrote: » GreatPhilisopher wrote: » Azherae wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » Ludullu wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » This method of engagement is very 2000s and doesn't work. That is literally the goal of the design. The game is simply not for you, if you get bothered by slow leveling. But Berserker is correct, your issue is not with the speed of leveling, it's with the gameplay itself, so if you want the game to change for the better - write out your issues with the gameplay. There's also a high chance that your issues will already be solved in the future, because the game is simply nowhere near finished, so the gameplay is trash right now. Though, from what I've heard, the PTR's first 10 lvls are getting more and more streamlined. This is a HUGE red flag. Game theory says the game MUST be fun first. If at any time the gameplay loop isn't fun you're building the wrong game. The problem is that for us, who like to play these games for long periods, to go 'slowly', and even 'to grind' in some cases, we don't share the understanding of what is fun in going faster. You did answer though, for you it's the endgame and the endgame community. If you have time, please give a few examples of what about that is fun but not accessible during leveling, because for me, at least, that's what I don't usually understand. There definitely are many reasons in design why 'fun ends up at endgame' for many games, but the Creative Director of this game intends for leveling to be slow, and therefore even if you don't play, the way you can help the most is to clarify what would make that slow leveling more fun or let it integrate more of whatever you are enjoying at 'normal MMO endgame'. (Disclaimer: My bias is to believe that mostly, MMO Devs just need to trick players by hiding a bunch of progression they don't see/understand until they are hooked, at the supposed endgame, so the only thing I could give feedback on to Ashes that would line up would be 'how to put that into leveling') a good game is a game fun from the start and at all stages, the end game being "the actual game" is bad, if i could give an example i guess elden ring maybe you dont care about the end game you are just exploring and having fun as for mmos maybe GW2 not perfect but close enough and maybe elder scrolls tho i didnt play that to know but i heard its leveling is fun or maybe the dungeons and dragons mmo ..etc being slow and grindy is not good neither being fast , you can be slower but you need to be fun and rewarding and that is something ashes is doing the opposite of because they just seem to have no idea what they are doing or wanting or they just refuse to actually improve the systems and stay stuck in the horrible design Ok but this still doesn't tell me anything relative to an MMO because it kinda assumes I have played GW2 (whether I have or not isn't the point, just as you've pointed out that you didn't really play ESO). For example, I like games with slow leveling, yet my current main game is Throne and Liberty, and I could go: "Even though I prefer slow leveling, here are the reasons why I don't feel really negative about the fast leveling in TL" and then give some reasons. This would help a different Dev who wanted to appeal to someone like me even though their game design is based on Fast leveling because they could then decide 'Oh, she might play if we add this' or 'oh, we shouldn't target this person because they will never be happy in our game' or even 'we can't target this person because adding the thing she wants would ruin our game'. But it's good to at least know. Devs really can't assume just 'a good game is good', because people like different things, and would help if they explained 'em. sure but you can go by the general opinion of most people and thats generally what'd you'd hear about GW2 leveling , i played TnL and its leveling was Boring on top of horrible combat so being fast made it tolerable and at least it looked pretty, at the end of the day the game being "the end game" is a bad design
Azherae wrote: » GreatPhilisopher wrote: » Azherae wrote: » GreatPhilisopher wrote: » Azherae wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » Ludullu wrote: » joelthunder wrote: » This method of engagement is very 2000s and doesn't work. That is literally the goal of the design. The game is simply not for you, if you get bothered by slow leveling. But Berserker is correct, your issue is not with the speed of leveling, it's with the gameplay itself, so if you want the game to change for the better - write out your issues with the gameplay. There's also a high chance that your issues will already be solved in the future, because the game is simply nowhere near finished, so the gameplay is trash right now. Though, from what I've heard, the PTR's first 10 lvls are getting more and more streamlined. This is a HUGE red flag. Game theory says the game MUST be fun first. If at any time the gameplay loop isn't fun you're building the wrong game. The problem is that for us, who like to play these games for long periods, to go 'slowly', and even 'to grind' in some cases, we don't share the understanding of what is fun in going faster. You did answer though, for you it's the endgame and the endgame community. If you have time, please give a few examples of what about that is fun but not accessible during leveling, because for me, at least, that's what I don't usually understand. There definitely are many reasons in design why 'fun ends up at endgame' for many games, but the Creative Director of this game intends for leveling to be slow, and therefore even if you don't play, the way you can help the most is to clarify what would make that slow leveling more fun or let it integrate more of whatever you are enjoying at 'normal MMO endgame'. (Disclaimer: My bias is to believe that mostly, MMO Devs just need to trick players by hiding a bunch of progression they don't see/understand until they are hooked, at the supposed endgame, so the only thing I could give feedback on to Ashes that would line up would be 'how to put that into leveling') a good game is a game fun from the start and at all stages, the end game being "the actual game" is bad, if i could give an example i guess elden ring maybe you dont care about the end game you are just exploring and having fun as for mmos maybe GW2 not perfect but close enough and maybe elder scrolls tho i didnt play that to know but i heard its leveling is fun or maybe the dungeons and dragons mmo ..etc being slow and grindy is not good neither being fast , you can be slower but you need to be fun and rewarding and that is something ashes is doing the opposite of because they just seem to have no idea what they are doing or wanting or they just refuse to actually improve the systems and stay stuck in the horrible design Ok but this still doesn't tell me anything relative to an MMO because it kinda assumes I have played GW2 (whether I have or not isn't the point, just as you've pointed out that you didn't really play ESO). For example, I like games with slow leveling, yet my current main game is Throne and Liberty, and I could go: "Even though I prefer slow leveling, here are the reasons why I don't feel really negative about the fast leveling in TL" and then give some reasons. This would help a different Dev who wanted to appeal to someone like me even though their game design is based on Fast leveling because they could then decide 'Oh, she might play if we add this' or 'oh, we shouldn't target this person because they will never be happy in our game' or even 'we can't target this person because adding the thing she wants would ruin our game'. But it's good to at least know. Devs really can't assume just 'a good game is good', because people like different things, and would help if they explained 'em. sure but you can go by the general opinion of most people and thats generally what'd you'd hear about GW2 leveling , i played TnL and its leveling was Boring on top of horrible combat so being fast made it tolerable and at least it looked pretty, at the end of the day the game being "the end game" is a bad design This is precisely why you can't do that 'general opinion' thing though. From my side, nothing you said is even remotely true. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, I'm saying that when someone pops up saying that Ashes sucks, the leveling is boring, the combat is bad, and it's ugly, if you can't have a more nuanced conversation, you have as much chance of convincing that person as I would have of convincing you that TL is good for me. If I explain 'no, for me personally, all these things about TL are cool and good actually' and you respond 'whatever, most people don't think that and I think it was bad', then at that point what would be the difference between you and OP? Not to mention that by your logic, GW2 leveling is very fast, and the game has Level Scaling almost the whole way, so it doesn't even belong in this conversation.
Azherae wrote: » Yeah, because it's about incentives. Throne and Liberty doesn't encourage players to take their time leveling (anymore), GW2 kinda does. So there will be more people that play GW2 and have the slow leveling experience as fun, than people who have that experience for TL. But Ashes does encourage players to take their time leveling in most ways, except one. You took your time in GW2 and enjoyed it, there was a lot of stuff to do. I took my time in TL at launch and enjoyed it, there was a lot of stuff to do (Events, at least, had Level Scaling like how GW2 does).. People are forced to 'take their time' in Ashes Alpha, and there isn't a lot of stuff to do, but OP was talking about levels 1-10, the part of the game where there is a lot of stuff to do. So why does OP want it faster? I want Ashes 1-10 to be faster because: I want to get to my Node, and they won't let me be a citizen if my level is too low. I want to get at least enough abilities to have some fun combat (biased since I don't like the combat) I want to explore a little bit more instead of having to slow-drag my constant back-and-forth These are my only reasons because everything else that is boring/unfun about Ashes Alpha right now (moreso 'when last I was able to seriously test') isn't related to leveling speed, for me, and I know this because I happily did the 1-9 grind in Alpha-1 like 8 times, I didn't even change area or generally do quests. Intrepid 'needs' to understand if OP wants leveling faster because the content is lacking, because the premise doesn't suit them, because they just like rushing to endgame no matter how fun the path is (like someone who would level to 80 in GW2 in 18 hours), or because they just don't like the content that's available, or they almost certainly will end up 'hollowing out' their game like nearly every other MMORPG (Neverwinter and GW2 are excluded) does.
