Griefing should not be a thing in this game

It is really lame when you kill a certain community member over and over for the shitty actions that they have taken in the past, and then they are able to go to a customer support ticket and complain about you griefing them. Then you get timed out.

Instead, the complainer should have game mechanics to ignore the offending party, and the corruption system should be sufficient punishment for the griefer. No GM moderation needed.

Like if you agree. Comment if you don’t, and “I’ll put a jihad on you too.”

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Comments

BlackBrony

I always thought it was part of the fun. Yes, trying to farm something and someone pking sucks. But if you keep going, you know what's going to happen.
Either call your guild, friends, or just go elsewhere.
AoC is based on conflict, if there's no PK in open world, it will be harder to get conflict and drama. Drama is what fuels wars, node changes!!!

Makinoji

I'm all for pk and corruption

Let me put it this way, I am all for options for all play styles

Atama

tugowar wrote: »

For those you must interact with, such as other guild leaders, you need to have a big enough backbone to be able to defend yourself, and a thick enough flesh to not be offended. But that’s a comment on all of society, not just gamers. #gamersRiseUp

That is a pretty toxic attitude to have. It’s a game, not a real life war. Nobody should be forced to put up with flagrant a-holes or “grow a backbone” and “thick enough flesh not to be offended”. Honestly, that’s the kind of attitude that’s likely to get you banned, and quickly. I hope I’m either seriously misunderstanding you, or you’re joking.

Karthos

Atama wrote: »

tugowar wrote: »

For those you must interact with, such as other guild leaders, you need to have a big enough backbone to be able to defend yourself, and a thick enough flesh to not be offended. But that’s a comment on all of society, not just gamers. #gamersRiseUp

That is a pretty toxic attitude to have. It’s a game, not a real life war. Nobody should be forced to put up with flagrant a-holes or “grow a backbone” and “thick enough flesh not to be offended”. Honestly, that’s the kind of attitude that’s likely to get you banned, and quickly. I hope I’m either seriously misunderstanding you, or you’re joking.

I think what he means is that toxic people should ruin it for your guild so you need strong leadership that's not going to sweat the small stuff.

Atama

Karthos wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

tugowar wrote: »

For those you must interact with, such as other guild leaders, you need to have a big enough backbone to be able to defend yourself, and a thick enough flesh to not be offended. But that’s a comment on all of society, not just gamers. #gamersRiseUp

That is a pretty toxic attitude to have. It’s a game, not a real life war. Nobody should be forced to put up with flagrant a-holes or “grow a backbone” and “thick enough flesh not to be offended”. Honestly, that’s the kind of attitude that’s likely to get you banned, and quickly. I hope I’m either seriously misunderstanding you, or you’re joking.

I think what he means is that toxic people should ruin it for your guild so you need strong leadership that's not going to sweat the small stuff.

Coupled with the suggestion that it’s impossible to be harassed in a game(?!) I have my doubts here. I’m hoping he can clarify.

tugowar

Atama wrote: »

tugowar wrote: »

For those you must interact with, such as other guild leaders, you need to have a big enough backbone to be able to defend yourself, and a thick enough flesh to not be offended. But that’s a comment on all of society, not just gamers. #gamersRiseUp

That is a pretty toxic attitude to have. It’s a game, not a real life war. Nobody should be forced to put up with flagrant a-holes or “grow a backbone” and “thick enough flesh not to be offended”. Honestly, that’s the kind of attitude that’s likely to get you banned, and quickly. I hope I’m either seriously misunderstanding you, or you’re joking.

Let me clarify. I honestly want to know if you think it is a toxic attitude.

If you suck, I’m going to tell you, in a nonsugarcoated manner that may be very direct and brutal. Your ability to receive that information ( thickness of skin ) and then your ability to process and respond ( back bone ) is something that you entirely control.

tugowar

Coupled with the suggestion that it’s impossible to be harassed in a game(?!) I have my doubts here. I’m hoping he can clarify.

I premised that on the game giving you social control, and in the context of in the game only.

But also, don’t miss the very fine point that I made about the fact that this game’s objective is harassing other players.

Teyloune

Necronix wrote: »

Lets be honest and address the elephant in the room. The ashes of creation community is somewhat toxic.
You can block them they will make an alt corruption system could have work around. Example use a mob to get the last hit on a player so you don't gain corruption iv seen it on other games. At the end of the day griefers will grief and most game companies don't address it because that less money at the end of the day. Telling people to not play a game just proves how asinine you are. cant really say what options the game will offer to lessen the griefing lessen being the key word there will always be griefing on some level.

Yes, this.
If someone uses a Mob to kill another Player they should also get punished for it, because they were involved in the action.
Another problem here would be, that if you would put a bounty on someones head trying to get rid of them, they would probably just ask a friend to claim it and split the reward.
This is not okay.

Atama

tugowar wrote: »

Let me clarify. I honestly want to know if you think it is a toxic attitude.

If you suck, I’m going to tell you, in a nonsugarcoated manner that may be very direct and brutal. Your ability to receive that information ( thickness of skin ) and then your ability to process and respond ( back bone ) is something that you entirely control.

Okay, that’s understandable. Nobody should have to walk on eggshells to interact with people. And being blunt and honest is commendable. I was in a guild for years that had the same people going from one game to another, more than a half dozen, and we got blunt and rude but we were close, like family at times. The guild broke up a long time ago but I still keep in touch with a few people outside of gaming. You don’t have relationships like that if you can’t be yourself.

I thought you might be talking about things like homophobic talk, racial slurs, misogyny. Hitting on people and stalking them. The messed up stuff that is too common on the internet, especially in MMOs. Nobody should have to deal with anything like that and “thick skin” isn’t the answer. But it looks like you’re not talking about that.

Little anecdote about me from the old forum... There was one poster who I disagreed with who just went off the rails. They started insulting my mom, slinging the nastiest profanity you could think of. The escalation was pretty unexpected and I decided to just be polite in response which oddly seemed to make them more angry. Eventually Stephen himself banned the poster (who I didn’t even report, by the way, I actually thought it was funny at the time). That was apparently the first time someone was banned from this forum, at least that’s what I was told. So that crazy stuff doesn’t even wait for the game before it starts!

tugowar wrote: »

I premised that on the game giving you social control, and in the context of in the game only.

But also, don’t miss the very fine point that I made about the fact that this game’s objective is harassing other players.

I don’t consider playing the game as it’s meant to be played “harassment”. It’s PvP so if some guy with an axe wants to cut off my head to take the granite I’m carrying or whatever, that’s how the game was designed. That’s not harassment. If that same guy starts spreading lies about me, or following me to KS everything I try to kill (which happened to me in WoW once for real, from a much higher-level player, ugh) or anything like that which is just griefing behavior outside of normal gameplay, that is legitimate in-game harassment. The system will not be sufficient to handle that on its own.

You don’t have social control over others’ behavior. Harassment is a real thing, it’s not good, and a game like this is especially prone to attracting people who engage in such behavior.

Think of it like creeps in a strip club... Ogling women is not only acceptable there, but it’s the whole point. That doesn’t mean that they have free reign to make any and all comments to the women, to engage in unwanted touching, to stalk them, etc. And yet a place like that attracts the sort because of what is permitted. Hence, most places like that employ vigilant bouncers.

A game like this which allows for competitive and violent behavior (everywhere) between players, guilds, nodes, and so on, it will attract the kind of people that enjoy ruining the fun of others. The kind of people that don’t like the restrictions of a full PvE game, not just because they like the challenge of fighting a real thinking opponent but because they don’t want to get along with people. It won’t be the majority of players, it’ll probably be a very small minority, but you’ll have more than what you’d find in most MMOs. So like a strip club you’re going to need bouncers.

I’m glad we have the corruption system. It should keep a lot of things in check and mitigate problems. It’s why the world PvP doesn’t worry me. But unfortunately it’s not going to eliminate the need for GMs to moderate behavior, far from it.

tugowar

My title is a bit of click bait. In the specific case of PK, I hope we do not have GM intervention. I recognize in other situations GM involvement is probably inevitable.

velish

jahlon wrote: »

If you don't want to get griefed in a PvP based game, don't play PvP based games.

Wait. When did this become a pvp based game?
I didnt realise i had signed up for Crowfall with better graphics.
Last i saw this was pvp around caravans and in pvp instances only... at least that was how i read it.

Nagash

velish wrote: »

jahlon wrote: »

If you don't want to get griefed in a PvP based game, don't play PvP based games.

Wait. When did this become a pvp based game?
I didnt realise i had signed up for Crowfall with better graphics.
Last i saw this was pvp around caravans and in pvp instances only... at least that was how i read it.

Ashes has open world PvP

tarros

Solution.... Avoid it. If you know someone is grieving or there is a group in an a area that is grieving others. Just avoid it. It is really simple to do and you are wasting more time by going to that area than just going else where to complete other daily tasks. You can always come back later when the coast is clear.

I never understood why gamers have this stubborn nature of repeatedly going back to finish a quest or task when they know full well that there are not good people there. If there is just one person and you lose. You can either go back and try to win or call for reinforcements. It is your own fault for whatever happens from there.

For those unexpected events of random killings. It is part of the game, you chose to play a game that is open world PvP. You have no reason (except of course for possibly losing stuff) to get angry at the other player, it is the nature of the beast. For those that abuse the system and try to get around it. Report it to the devs and it will most likely get fixed.

Karthos

velish wrote: »

jahlon wrote: »

If you don't want to get griefed in a PvP based game, don't play PvP based games.

Wait. When did this become a pvp based game?
I didnt realise i had signed up for Crowfall with better graphics.
Last i saw this was pvp around caravans and in pvp instances only... at least that was how i read it.

Doh!

Aundrew

wanderingmist wrote: »

Often times it is the community that decides what is considered acceptable, not the developers.

Quite True I find, either people wander off or pull together and say No, stop.

If resources are going to be limited, then how can anyone imagine that people won't kill people over them? Camp them? I can quite see a party or guild finding a resource and most of the players harvest and bring it back to town, while someone else sits there and protects their 'claim' ?
It does seem harassment and griefing can come in various forms. It can even become Meta. If as above a group or guild finds a valuable resource but someone else posts about it on discord or wiki or somewhere else, who's harassing who? The group found it first and want to harvest it all, is it their claim? Should they be at fault for wanting to harvest it and protect what they found? Even to the determent of getting corruption? The person that posted about this resource. Are they harassing the group, or just providing intel to others? Does it take a number of instances to declare what harassment is in this case?

If anything I think this will lead to meaningful discussions, rp or otherwise. A group of miners come up that want to harvest, but they don't want to fight, maybe a deal is worked out? Maybe nothing at all.. and the battle is on. Meaningful conflict. The corruption system seems like a good start, but we'll see how it is managed. What about typical damage shields? if a player attacks you and your magical fire shield auto does damage back to them, are you suddenly a combatant? May make players rethink even those auto cast spells. My biggest concern for killing, is spawning. You travel a long distance and suddenly get ganked and get tossed back 8 nodes, without fast travel, it's time and not resources you lose. May make players less likely to explore. I believe a pushing mechanic is already mentioned, so at least blocking doorways and such will be out.

Kaisustrin

tugowar wrote: »

First, let’s distinguish that we are talking about three different things.
1. Player killing - the original post
2. Player inconveniencing - blocking a resource, etc
3. Harassment

I do not think the GM’s should be involved in player inconveniencing. If it was an unintended system, then the development team needs to have a quick update process to rectify the game system. If the system is in the game, the player should be able to use and abuse it. Otherwise, you are left with a situation where you are punishing the more creative player because he thought of something that you did not.

In the case of harassment, I posit that it should be impossible to be harassed purely in game. Harassment is aggressive pressure or intimidation ( which by the way is what this game is built upon...)

You should have enough control over your own experience through ignore and other social interaction functions that a person cannot interact with you if you choose not to let them.

For those you must interact with, such as other guild leaders, you need to have a big enough backbone to be able to defend yourself, and a thick enough flesh to not be offended. But that’s a comment on all of society, not just gamers. #gamersRiseUp

So you're against griefing in the form of killing other players over and over, but you're not against griefing in the form of player inconveniencing, such as blocking resources or pathways?
That is also considered to be a form of griefing. Your title is counterproductive compared to what you're trying to argue. There will always be unintentional systems in games, especially early formats of games, that developers didn't intend and simply didn't see before the final product is launched. Taking advantage of those systems and utilizing them to gain an unfair edge over others, either in the form of player inconveniencing or massive jumps ahead by ignoring certain game mechanics is within the realm of exploits and griefing alike.

tugowar

@Kaisustrin my title is Clickbait so I can have a lively discussion.

My argument is that player killing is not griefing by definition. There are other kinds of grieving, but not player killing, and they’re pretty limited in nature.

Volgaire

Well if I want to kill someone everytime I see them it should be ok, but I also have to deal with the corruption that follows.

Nagash

Autumnleaf wrote: »

Well if I want to kill someone everytime I see them it should be ok, but I also have to deal with the corruption that follows.

If that's how the game is designed and meant to be playing them you are allowed to do so

Atama

tugowar wrote: »

@Kaisustrin my title is Clickbait so I can have a lively discussion.

My argument is that player killing is not griefing by definition. There are other kinds of grieving, but not player killing, and they’re pretty limited in nature.

Of course. Wikipedia has a pretty good article on griefing, and defines it well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

The definitions in that article follow with how I’ve always understood the term to be used.

Look over that article, there are many examples of griefing. As you said, simple player killing is not one of them.

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