Will There Be Another Backer Period?

Greetings: Is Intrepid thinking about opening-up another period for new players to back AOC? Why? It appears there are some that would like to purchase skins and the like, and feel left out. So there's kickstarter and summer backers - correct? The video below has some commentary about skins and lamenting the inability to purchase them because of missing the time period to participate as potential new AOC backers. Cheers! Skaff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JswLdcOJ0Xg

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Atama

Selling beta access to people after the KS is fine. And that’s already happening. You can buy a pack right now for $75 that gets you into Beta 2. As far as I know there’s no expiration for beta purchase opportunities, they just rotate the other goodies you get in the pack from month to month.

Selling KS exclusive perks as suggested in the OP is the problem.

Jahlon

Atama wrote: »

They already did this. It was the summer crowd fund event. And it was poorly received because they offered lifetime subscriptions which they swore before was a Kickstarter exclusive, and apparently lied about it.

If you don't understand why that is bad, imagine this. You go to your favorite video game store, and buy a game you have your eye on. As you take it to the salesperson they tell you that the store is having a special, that if you spend an extra $15 now you can get an exclusive set of items for the game and even a T-shirt, but that the offer ends by close of business that day. You weren't planning to spend that extra money and as it turns out that's all the cash you have before your paycheck that weekend. You really wanted to spend that money for lunch the rest of the week. But you figure, I better spend it now or I lose this opportunity, so you do it. You have peanut butter and jelly at home, and stale bread, you can make it work.

You take the game home, have some fun, and then next week you swing by the game store to see if they have anything new. You see a poster advertising the deal with the game you bought, and ask an employee why the poster is still up if the offer expired. They explain to you that the offer doesn't expire, it's an ongoing promotion.

How pissed off would you be? You were totally lied to. You would have rather saved that $15 and not had to live off bad sandwiches at work, and you could have come back the next week to buy the stuff after your payday. The only reason you bought it then was because you were told it was a time-limited exclusive and you didn't want to miss out on an opportunity you might regret later.

Well, many KS backers were in that exact position. They felt pressure to pledge NOW because they'd never have the opportunity again. And for lifetime subscriptions, well most MMOs don't offer that. It's a really good deal if the game is great and you play it for a few years, it literally pays for itself in the money you save not having to pay fees each month. And then they find out, "just kidding", it's available again later.

And you are asking for that kind of garbage AGAIN?! Yes, I know you set a limit and aren't asking for it to go all the way up to Braver or higher, most likely because you know what kind of a $#!*storm it caused last time they offered lifetime subs a second time, being blatantly guilty of false advertising. But regardless, it's still the same problem. You can't sell something to people based on claims of time-limited exclusivity, in order to force them into a (apparently false) choice of buying now or never, and then go back on your written pledge and sell it again. That's a violation of the truth-in-advertising laws, and is a potential FTC violation.

Hopefully Intrepid Studios isn't stupid enough to take your suggestion seriously. It could likely get them into legal trouble, and even worse from their perspective it would give them an EXTREMELY bad image that would risk tanking this game before release as paying customers demand refunds, and potential customers are turned away from an untrustworthy development studio.

The piece people forget here, is the summer backer program was opened up, not because Intrepid went back on their word, but because they had legitimate interested people with due to how Kickstarter works could not pledge.

Its not like they did the SB program a year or two later, it was literally on the heels of the KS and was done so people who's credit card/debit card situation was not compatible with KS.

unknown

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Amist

Skafftaruss wrote: »

Why is time the issue (time stamp) here? Instead it should be getting more gamers involved. The logic of gate keepers escapes me? Don't we keep our props? I'm baffled at human psychology and behavior. I got mine - at the expense of the game? I am am just a dolt here.

The issue lies in promises made by the the team. If you buy something under the impression that it will never become available again and thus spend a large amount of money, and if that item were to become available again, wouldn't you be upset?

If the issue is having beta 2 being available to buy then it already is on the store.

unknown

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insomnia

I'm not a backer, but i don't have a problem with the backers getting these cosmetics. When Intrepid did it, they said it would be a one time offer. Going back on that would be shitting on the backers, who spend the money back then, thinking they wouldn't get the option to do it again. There was cosmetics item(s) i wanted, but i didn't have the money.
Welcome to the real world, you will at times lose out on things

Nagash

if the want to make the life time sub open again they will have to take it for my warm ashes

BeerBuddy

Nagash wrote: »

if the want to make the life time sub open again they will have to take it for my warm ashes

I'm admittedly a nobody, but I find it strange that IS offered exclusive lifetime subscriptions early on when they would have to know that it would be wanted by a wide range of supporters in the future. What a huge mistake on their part. Massive revenue lost, very short-sighted.

A choice would be to offer a more expensive version of lifetime sub, etc., argument being that the price was exclusive and not the sub. But that'll just piss everyone off instead of just the early backers. So, they screwed up, and late comers miss out.

Nagash

BeerBuddy wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

if the want to make the life time sub open again they will have to take it for my warm ashes

I'm admittedly a nobody, but I find it strange that IS offered exclusive lifetime subscriptions early on when they would have to know that it would be wanted by a wide range of supporters in the future. What a huge mistake on their part. Massive revenue lost, very short-sighted.

A choice would be to offer a more expensive version of lifetime sub, etc., argument being that the price was exclusive and not the sub. But that'll just piss everyone off instead of just the early backers. So, they screwed up, and late comers miss out.

But if the option to get lifetime subs was longer than the Kickstarter period that would mean a huge loss in the long run which is what MMOs with a sub based game need. Plus its a considerable reward for people who backed them when ashes were not much more than bare bones

BeerBuddy

@Nagash you are right that it's a great deal for early investors ($500!). You are right that they can't/won't offer again. You are IMHO wrong that this is a good long-term business decision.

People generally spend way more per month than the sub, especially those footing an initial, e.g., $900, lifetime sub. People invested in the game will spend more for the most part.

So 5 years of guaranteed sub plus cosmetics is not a huge loss of revenue in the long term. The loss leader would exist only for the small percentage that 1) buy lifetime sub, 2) play for more than five years, AND 3) spend nothing on cash shop items ever. (And even then won't be much loss seven years from now.)

In five years after release (seven years from now) lifers that are still around will still be pumping money into the cash shop or be long gone anyway (so no monthly sub income in that case).

Maybe IS did the marketing research that proves me wrong, or maybe they simply screwed up. Either way, such is life as it is now.

Azathoth

Skafftaruss wrote: »

Reality and promises are two different things. We want the game to succeed. Some folks made promises, now the general public gets it for free. Backers are dumbfounded. I'll leave it at that. Cheers!

Reality is that there are options to buy into the Beta now.

Skafftaruss wrote: »

@Atama Good. Open up the Beta 2 options but not for freebie time to the general public. Let's see IF and how it will be done. Good compromise. Part of it is poor communication. My two IT folks are looking forward to it or I will have to give them two of my beta keys, although they come on their own AOC volition to pay for membership. Again, education efforts are lacking - if that is the case. BTW - as a backer, technical difficulties meant I was side-lined, while other freebie folks got their enjoyment during Battle Royale. I was on TeamSpeak to get things straightened out for which I payed a pretty penny as a backer. That costs money but I was OK in doing it. FYI. Skaff.

So now I have to ask, was your pitch to get a Beta Key backer package related to you not wanting to give you IT guys two of your beta keys?

Atama

jahlon wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

They already did this. It was the summer crowd fund event. And it was poorly received because they offered lifetime subscriptions which they swore before was a Kickstarter exclusive, and apparently lied about it.

If you don't understand why that is bad, imagine this. You go to your favorite video game store, and buy a game you have your eye on. As you take it to the salesperson they tell you that the store is having a special, that if you spend an extra $15 now you can get an exclusive set of items for the game and even a T-shirt, but that the offer ends by close of business that day. You weren't planning to spend that extra money and as it turns out that's all the cash you have before your paycheck that weekend. You really wanted to spend that money for lunch the rest of the week. But you figure, I better spend it now or I lose this opportunity, so you do it. You have peanut butter and jelly at home, and stale bread, you can make it work.

You take the game home, have some fun, and then next week you swing by the game store to see if they have anything new. You see a poster advertising the deal with the game you bought, and ask an employee why the poster is still up if the offer expired. They explain to you that the offer doesn't expire, it's an ongoing promotion.

How pissed off would you be? You were totally lied to. You would have rather saved that $15 and not had to live off bad sandwiches at work, and you could have come back the next week to buy the stuff after your payday. The only reason you bought it then was because you were told it was a time-limited exclusive and you didn't want to miss out on an opportunity you might regret later.

Well, many KS backers were in that exact position. They felt pressure to pledge NOW because they'd never have the opportunity again. And for lifetime subscriptions, well most MMOs don't offer that. It's a really good deal if the game is great and you play it for a few years, it literally pays for itself in the money you save not having to pay fees each month. And then they find out, "just kidding", it's available again later.

And you are asking for that kind of garbage AGAIN?! Yes, I know you set a limit and aren't asking for it to go all the way up to Braver or higher, most likely because you know what kind of a $#!*storm it caused last time they offered lifetime subs a second time, being blatantly guilty of false advertising. But regardless, it's still the same problem. You can't sell something to people based on claims of time-limited exclusivity, in order to force them into a (apparently false) choice of buying now or never, and then go back on your written pledge and sell it again. That's a violation of the truth-in-advertising laws, and is a potential FTC violation.

Hopefully Intrepid Studios isn't stupid enough to take your suggestion seriously. It could likely get them into legal trouble, and even worse from their perspective it would give them an EXTREMELY bad image that would risk tanking this game before release as paying customers demand refunds, and potential customers are turned away from an untrustworthy development studio.

The piece people forget here, is the summer backer program was opened up, not because Intrepid went back on their word, but because they had legitimate interested people with due to how Kickstarter works could not pledge.

Its not like they did the SB program a year or two later, it was literally on the heels of the KS and was done so people who's credit card/debit card situation was not compatible with KS.

I didn’t have an issue with the summer crowd funding (in general). Even the cosmetics were different enough that nobody could rightly complain that the promised exclusives were not exclusive.

...Except the lifetime sub. That was the one claimed exclusive from KS that they clearly violated. And it was one of the most important KS exclusives, if not the most. If there was one thing sure to tick people off to offer again it was that one.

And yes, a lifetime sub is the kind of thing you rarely see offered because it means betting against yourself. The only way for IS to profit from a lifetime sub is if the people paying for it aren’t playing the game long enough for it to pay for itself. Let’s say the subscription is $15 a month and you paid $500 for the package with the sub. If you play the game for 3 years, a subscription would cost ($15/mo * 12 mo/yr * 3yr) $540. So you’d save $40 in that time frame. And that’s discounting the value of everything else in the package.

When you desperately need startup capital (like every KS project) it makes sense to have this offer. That $500 per person is something you need NOW to get the game made and published. If you have no game then you’ll never get profits, now or later. So it’s an investment on both sides.

After the game launches? (Or the point where you have enough “seed money” to finish development.) It makes no sense then, you’re no longer in dire need of immediate funds and so it makes no sense to give up long term profits that way. So fro their perspective, offering a lifetime sub again won’t make financial sense (even ignoring the fact they’ll tick people off yet again).

Azathoth

@Atama I agree 100%. The reason I moved my pledge up to Braver was the lifetime sub. Mostly because there is no telling what finances will be like in the future.

If it was something that would always be offered I wouldn't have put myself out the extra cash at the time. I would have saved for it.

Volgaire

This would be IS digging themselves an early grave. I can only imagine the outrage if they pulled this off.

unknownsystemerror

They have weathered plenty of outrage before. The original Summer outrage. The QTE outrage. The My.com outrage. They JDGAF, they are going to do what is best for the bottom line and they know that people have the attention span of fruit flies. Rabble, rabble, rabble for a week, then on to the next.

Plateau

Amist

Leonerdo wrote: »

Gonna be honest, I have zero sympathy for people who bought the lifetime sub Kickstarter pack and somehow felt regret about it, not because Intrepid didn't deliver on the game or anything serious, but just because they could have gotten the same deal later on which may have been slightly more convenient.

Basically, you took a bet on a Kickstarter and by all accounts Intrepid is trying to make that bet pay off. And another good thing: lots of other people got the same great deal as you and get to enjoy a lifetime sub (which in no way lessens the value of your own lifetime sub). But you wanna be butthurt because you could have saved that money TEMPORARILY? If this is the kinda shit that's gonna make you regret your decision, then maybe you shouldn't have dropped 400$ on a Kickstarter in the first place??

I'm sorry, I don't want to be antagonistic, but this is just ridiculous. It sucks that you feel lied to, and maybe the timing of the purchase really did hurt you in some unfortunate way. But it's not like you'd be in a better spot if Intrepid had decided not to host a second sale. The purchase you made doesn't get any worse because you could have made a better purchase later.

Maybe if Intrepid actually knew their future plans and literally lied to Kickstarter backers, knowing that the limited-time deal wasn't actually time limited. Then maybe I could see an issue. But no, they just changed their minds later, to try and make some other people happy.

Just let people have nice things, jeez.

From a financial standpoint it doesn't make sense to bring the lifetime sub back. If a large portion of the playerbase isn't paying the monthly sub, the games progression will suffer over the years

Azathoth

@Leonerdo, you say it would have been slightly more convenient to wait, but I was in a different economical existence at that point and my choice was made because looking forward I might not have always had $15/mo to play. It's a shame that now others are slightly inconvenienced because they don't have that option.

However, you are right, and the feelings of those that invested early on in Ashes should not be taken into account by IS. It also doesn't matter that IS changed their minds and extended the KS to SB because it wasn't a lie. #Capitalism and what not.

I think you nailed it when you said "It sucks that you feel lied to...". It totally sucked to see IS use wordsmithing to give me the impression they had no intention to stick to their original statements. It really made that investment hurt. I was never mad about others not having the same options, just that IS changed their minds about it after they had received my money.

cyanideinsanity

I've been trying to understand this post and still can't. Are you asking for IS to make just beta 2 access available in a small "late backers" campaign without any of the kickstarter/summer backer perks? "Plus, none of the previous skins ... and retro-active stuff. Let's increase our base."

Jahlon

Atama wrote: »

I didn’t have an issue with the summer crowd funding (in general). Even the cosmetics were different enough that nobody could rightly complain that the promised exclusives were not exclusive.

...Except the lifetime sub. That was the one claimed exclusive from KS that they clearly violated. And it was one of the most important KS exclusives, if not the most. If there was one thing sure to tick people off to offer again it was that one.

Again, you missed the important point of why they did the summer backer program.

They didn't throw up the Summer Backer program to just make more money. They didn't do it a year later because the coffers were dry.

They did it, and included the lifetime sub option, because there were people who wanted to back during the Kickstarter and due to how Kickstarter functions they were unable to.

There are people who do not have credit cards. There are some banks that do not allow their debit cards to be used at Kickstarter. These people would normally get around it by using PayPal, but PayPal is not a valid payment method at Kickstarter.

There are some debit cards and credit cards that Kickstarter does not take. I know this first hand because I fucked up my Kickstarter backing by having a Discover loaded in Kickstarter and they do not take it.

So, yes in a black and white scenario Intrepid did "violate" the KS exclusivity of the life-time sub. Given they did it immediately after their KS, for a limited time, in order to do right by the people who were blocked from being able to back on Kickstarter shows they were doing right by their community.

The Summer backer Lifetime sub in no way cheapens or lessens the lifetime sub for the people who could purchase it a month earlier.

People who were angry about them making it available to the people who literally could not make the purchase need to get over themselves about their outrage.

Now, if Intrepid were to offer it again, or offer the KS/SB rewards again in 2019/2020, then yes outrage away, but a studio opening up an in-house crowd funding to take care of customers who were blocked due to the platform, that was just taking care of your community.

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