The summoner/Necromancer

What do you want with your "Pet"?
If its humanoid id like to be able to equip it items. the whole nine yards. min maxing my character and another at the same time might be a tad much but it sounds like fun to me.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Atama

wanderingmist wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

I’ve played pet classes in a lot of games. For me the most successful implementations have always been the ones that required the smallest micromanagement. You set things like aggression level, what skills you want them to use, then they do it all on their own once combat starts. You just control your own character, the pet then just has simple “attack”, “stay”, “follow” sorts of commands. That’s what I’d like to see in this game too.

That's all well and good but when dealing with harder content, being able to get your pet to use their abilities at the right moment is very important. If for example the only CC your class has comes from your pet, you need to ensure it uses that CC at the correct time (AI very rare does this).

The very simple solution to that is that you don’t give the pet any abilities that need to be used “at the right moment”. That includes never giving a pet a CC or interrupt. That’s a big part of the whole “no micromanagement” part of my request. Let the summoner have the skills that need strategy. The pet can be a simple, dumb tank/damage dealer/buff bot/whatever. Plenty of games have successfully pulled that off.

Wandering Mist

Atama wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

I’ve played pet classes in a lot of games. For me the most successful implementations have always been the ones that required the smallest micromanagement. You set things like aggression level, what skills you want them to use, then they do it all on their own once combat starts. You just control your own character, the pet then just has simple “attack”, “stay”, “follow” sorts of commands. That’s what I’d like to see in this game too.

That's all well and good but when dealing with harder content, being able to get your pet to use their abilities at the right moment is very important. If for example the only CC your class has comes from your pet, you need to ensure it uses that CC at the correct time (AI very rare does this).

The very simple solution to that is that you don’t give the pet any abilities that need to be used “at the right moment”. That includes never giving a pet a CC or interrupt. That’s a big part of the whole “no micromanagement” part of my request. Let the summoner have the skills that need strategy. The pet can be a simple, dumb tank/damage dealer/buff bot/whatever. Plenty of games have successfully pulled that off.

You could do that, but then I would argue that the pet is largely pointless outside of RP. For example, let's say you have a pet that deals a certain amount of dps to your target that you had no control over aside from assigning a target. If you got rid of that pet and put all the pet's dps into the player's base abilities, the gameplay would be exactly the same.

Similarly, if you have a pet that passively buffs the party all the time whenever it is in combat, you aren't adding anything to the gameplay.

Effects that the player have absolutely no control over are, in my opinion, terrible game design. That's why the azerite system in WoW has been such a failure for many people. Most of the azerite traits are completely passive and the only way you can tell they are doing anything is by looking at a damage meter.

Damokles

@wanderingmist
The trick is to give yourself the ability, and then use the pet as a medium to use them^^
The pet itself should not have the ability to cast any significant spells or abilities on its own (lets take abilities like swipe or bite etc out here ;D), give them to the player so he can choose when and how the pet will do them.
I think a specific pet should have specific abilities bound to it, but the player should have total control over them, as if they where his own abilities.

Wandering Mist

Damokles wrote: »

@wanderingmist
The trick is to give yourself the ability, and then use the pet as a medium to use them^^
The pet itself should not have the ability to cast any significant spells or abilities on its own (lets take abilities like swipe or bite etc out here ;D), give them to the player so he can choose when and how the pet will do them.
I think a specific pet should have specific abilities bound to it, but the player should have total control over them, as if they where his own abilities.

That's exactly how most pet classes work in the games I have played, and you're right it works very well. The problem is that if you are going to do that, the abilities that are channelled through the pet need to be as responsive as your normal abilities.

Nagash

I really wanted to give Dave the best armour and weapons :'(

Damokles

@nagash Only Glen deserves the very best of armour and weaponry! And if not Glen then at least Steve, both fought bravely on the field of battle!

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

@nagash Only Glen deserves the very best of armour and weaponry! And if not Glen then at least Steve, both fought bravely on the field of battle!

glen is a whiny ***** and Steve is always rattled for some reason

Damokles

Nagash wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

@nagash Only Glen deserves the very best of armour and weaponry! And if not Glen then at least Steve, both fought bravely on the field of battle!

glen is a whine ***** and Steve is always rattled for some reason

Oh yeah? Dave is always leaking on the floor!

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

@nagash Only Glen deserves the very best of armour and weaponry! And if not Glen then at least Steve, both fought bravely on the field of battle!

glen is a whine ***** and Steve is always rattled for some reason

Oh yeah? Dave is always leaking on the floor!

to be fair that my fault by giving him red wine

lunarsky

I'd like to see abilities work through the pet as others have described. Meaning, the pet only does basic attacks on its own. The summoner has to instruct the pet to do anything of significance and those pet skills exist on the summoner's bar (With the skill bar changing with every pet summoned to avoid having 56 skill bars clogging up the screen). The "pokemon" model more or less. I think Aion did something like this but I haven't played in a while so I may be remembering that incorrectly.

Another model for summoner skills I have seen and liked was in Lost Ark where the skill summons a pet it does a unique skill then vanishes. There are some semi-persistent pets but they only do basic attacks.

Some combination of the two could work. You have a persistent pet (something undead for necros, humanoid elementals for conjurers etc) that a significant portion of your skills work directly through then additional skills (perhaps the ultimate as well) that summon a pet that does something (CC or massive AoE dmg) then disappears right after so it doesn't require further micromanaging or pathing AI.

I do not think pets should be able to equip armor/weapons they should come summoned with them (when appropriate like a LV50 Necro wight king) and get progressively stronger or more savage/powerful looking as you level up. The additionally balancing that would need to occur if they would actually equip weapons and armor would be rough as well as the all of the extra artwork that would be required seems like too much to ask for at this point. It'll be good enough if we can customize some of their base aesthetics like with animal husbandry.

Damokles

LunarSky wrote: »

Some combination of the two could work. You have a persistent pet (something undead for necros, humanoid elementals for conjurers etc) that a significant portion of your skills work directly through then additional skills (perhaps the ultimate as well) that summon a pet that does something (CC or massive AoE dmg) then disappears right after so it doesn't require further micromanaging or pathing AI.

They had a guardian build in GW2 that was simmilar. You summoned all the ghost weapons you could, and then sacrificed them to use their special ability.

It was only a support build and didnt deal a huge amount of damage, but it was fun to walk around with a floating hammer, sword, bow and shield^^

Atama

wanderingmist wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

I’ve played pet classes in a lot of games. For me the most successful implementations have always been the ones that required the smallest micromanagement. You set things like aggression level, what skills you want them to use, then they do it all on their own once combat starts. You just control your own character, the pet then just has simple “attack”, “stay”, “follow” sorts of commands. That’s what I’d like to see in this game too.

That's all well and good but when dealing with harder content, being able to get your pet to use their abilities at the right moment is very important. If for example the only CC your class has comes from your pet, you need to ensure it uses that CC at the correct time (AI very rare does this).

The very simple solution to that is that you don’t give the pet any abilities that need to be used “at the right moment”. That includes never giving a pet a CC or interrupt. That’s a big part of the whole “no micromanagement” part of my request. Let the summoner have the skills that need strategy. The pet can be a simple, dumb tank/damage dealer/buff bot/whatever. Plenty of games have successfully pulled that off.

You could do that, but then I would argue that the pet is largely pointless outside of RP. For example, let's say you have a pet that deals a certain amount of dps to your target that you had no control over aside from assigning a target. If you got rid of that pet and put all the pet's dps into the player's base abilities, the gameplay would be exactly the same.

Similarly, if you have a pet that passively buffs the party all the time whenever it is in combat, you aren't adding anything to the gameplay.

That’s the case for every class. The only difference between a sword swing and a melee range magic attack is RP. Or an arrow shot compared to a psychic blast. Anything outside of effect and numbers is cosmetic. Your argument is meaningless.

There are aspects that make pet classes fun to me. It can feel like you’re grouping. You can have gameplay variety by summoning different pets that give different situational benefits; a pet that tanks for a tough enemy, a high DPS pet that gets you through content faster, pets with different kinds of buffs. I also like when the pet has its own separate advancement system where it can level up and be assigned different builds on its own. I also like searching for rare/unique pets in the wild to earn and tame.

But that is all thematic/cosmetic/RP. You don’t really need a pet to do any of that. You could have artifact weapons with their own advancement and builds for example (both WoW and LotRO had that). The same way that a mage is the same as a cleric if you let his spells heal. And so what? That’s how MMORPGs work.

Wandering Mist

@Atama I fear you are missing my point. Whenever you have separate effects that are entirely passive, that you have no control over nor can act upon, those effects might as well not exist.

https://www.wowdb.com/spells/266937-gutripper

This is an example of what I mean. This ability doesn't change your gameplay at all, and the only way you can tell it is activating is by looking at a damage meter.

A pet that you can't control is exactly the same. Take the pet away and your gameplay wouldn't change in the slightest.

Atama

wanderingmist wrote: »

@Atama I fear you are missing my point. Whenever you have separate effects that are entirely passive, that you have no control over nor can act upon, those effects might as well not exist.

https://www.wowdb.com/spells/266937-gutripper

This is an example of what I mean. This ability doesn't change your gameplay at all, and the only way you can tell it is activating is by looking at a damage meter.

A pet that you can't control is exactly the same. Take the pet away and your gameplay wouldn't change in the slightest.

Define "control". Even in my example of a very low-maintenance pet, you still have control over who it attacks, if it attacks, when it attacks, and so on.

Even if you expand what you do with it, for example you have a separate bar of special abilities you have to execute yourself to make the pet do them, the pet is still acting independently of you; running over to the enemy, keeping within range of it, etc. Unless you're actually moving the pet around directly, and in that situation it's not even a pet anymore, the "pet" is your character.

You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions in this thread. For example, you stated that "when dealing with harder content, being able to get your pet to use their abilities at the right moment is very important." Not necessarily. Suggesting that you have "no control" of a pet if it's not doing what you, personally, want a pet to do. I know that you have mentioned the FFXIV summoner in your initial response, is that your only experience with a pet class in an MMO? If that's the case then I understand your misconceptions, but I assure you that if you get an opportunity to play pet classes in other games that there are other ways for them to work.

Volgaire

Summons are just meatshields so I cant turn you to ash quicker.

Wandering Mist

Atama wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

@Atama I fear you are missing my point. Whenever you have separate effects that are entirely passive, that you have no control over nor can act upon, those effects might as well not exist.

https://www.wowdb.com/spells/266937-gutripper

This is an example of what I mean. This ability doesn't change your gameplay at all, and the only way you can tell it is activating is by looking at a damage meter.

A pet that you can't control is exactly the same. Take the pet away and your gameplay wouldn't change in the slightest.

Define "control". Even in my example of a very low-maintenance pet, you still have control over who it attacks, if it attacks, when it attacks, and so on.

Even if you expand what you do with it, for example you have a separate bar of special abilities you have to execute yourself to make the pet do them, the pet is still acting independently of you; running over to the enemy, keeping within range of it, etc. Unless you're actually moving the pet around directly, and in that situation it's not even a pet anymore, the "pet" is your character.

You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions in this thread. For example, you stated that "when dealing with harder content, being able to get your pet to use their abilities at the right moment is very important." Not necessarily. Suggesting that you have "no control" of a pet if it's not doing what you, personally, want a pet to do. I know that you have mentioned the FFXIV summoner in your initial response, is that your only experience with a pet class in an MMO? If that's the case then I understand your misconceptions, but I assure you that if you get an opportunity to play pet classes in other games that there are other ways for them to work.

Hmm, pet classes I have played in other mmorpgs. Let's see. Ranger and Necromancer in the original Guildwars, Necromancer and Mesmer in GW2, Hunter and Warlock in WoW, to name a few. The reason why I mentioned FFXIV pets earlier was as a cautionary tale since it is by far the worst implementation of a pet class that I have encountered in an mmorpg.

Yes there are times where you need to move your pet around directly, for example to avoid it getting hit by aoe attacks. I also fail to see the "incorrect assumption" I am making when it comes to harder content. The WoW Warlock is a perfect example. Their only interrupt ability comes from their felhunter pet, so if you intend to use it the last thing you want is for there to be a delay on the spell causing you to miss the interrupt on a key enemy ability. The Scholar in FFXIV has a similar problem. The only CC it has in its kit is from its pet, and it is very frustrating to use because of the way the AI works, usually resulting in either a delay on the ability or for the ability to not work at all.

I don't know about you but when I press a button for an ability, I expect the ability to activate. This doesn't always happen in FFXIV and sometimes I have to press the same key 3-4 times before it will work.

lunarsky

Damokles wrote: »

LunarSky wrote: »

Some combination of the two could work. You have a persistent pet (something undead for necros, humanoid elementals for conjurers etc) that a significant portion of your skills work directly through then additional skills (perhaps the ultimate as well) that summon a pet that does something (CC or massive AoE dmg) then disappears right after so it doesn't require further micromanaging or pathing AI.

They had a guardian build in GW2 that was simmilar. You summoned all the ghost weapons you could, and then sacrificed them to use their special ability.
It was only a support build and didnt deal a huge amount of damage, but it was fun to walk around with a floating hammer, sword, bow and shield^^

I mained a guardian in GW2 and should have thought of them too when I was writing that.

Damokles

LunarSky wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

LunarSky wrote: »

Some combination of the two could work. You have a persistent pet (something undead for necros, humanoid elementals for conjurers etc) that a significant portion of your skills work directly through then additional skills (perhaps the ultimate as well) that summon a pet that does something (CC or massive AoE dmg) then disappears right after so it doesn't require further micromanaging or pathing AI.

They had a guardian build in GW2 that was simmilar. You summoned all the ghost weapons you could, and then sacrificed them to use their special ability.
It was only a support build and didnt deal a huge amount of damage, but it was fun to walk around with a floating hammer, sword, bow and shield^^

I mained a guardian in GW2 and should have thought of them too when I was writing that.

Nah, not many people played that spec and it was only really viable in the very beginnings ;D
It was normal that you didnt remember that (i only did, because i mained a tank/healer guardian in the very beginning

)

Xaq

Why is everyone so fixated on Necromancers and summoning undead? Is it because the Overlord anime caused a hype? I doubt any one character would be able to control a horde of summons unless they're a glass cannon, and even so that is crazy unbalanced. There's nothing wrong with summoning elementals or guards to aid in fights, or even summons from other planes of existence. I don't want to walk around the world and be like "Oh, look another necromancer." while that player is running around with 20 zombies. And with all this hype, it feels like 10%+ of the playerbase is going to be Necromancers.

Nagash

Xaq wrote: »

Why is everyone so fixated on Necromancers and summoning undead? Is it because the Overlord anime caused a hype? I doubt any one character would be able to control a horde of summons unless they're a glass cannon, and even so that is crazy unbalanced. There's nothing wrong with summoning elementals or guards to aid in fights, or even summons from other planes of existence. I don't want to walk around the world and be like "Oh, look another necromancer." while that player is running around with 20 zombies. And with all this hype, it feels like 10%+ of the playerbase is going to be Necromancers.

You were expecting overlord, but it was me NAGASH

Child Item