should Mobs be able to kill you?

As the title suggests should mobs be able to kill us if we were not careful enough? those of us who play vanilla WoW remember how pulling more than 2 mobs at a time can kill you, some people like this and others don't, for me I liked that aspect comparing to today mobes where I can kill mobs higher 10 levels than my character or just collect all of the mobs (on my level or higher) and just AOE all of them with one or two skills.
And since we are on the topic lits add the mobs in dungeons and raid should killing them be a priority rather than just bypass them? for example, should we get an extra reward for killing them like them holding recipes? or not killing them and bypass them will make them attack us when we reach the boss? and so on.
I just wanted to know what all of you think? and at what level of difficulty do you want the mobs to be at?

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Comments

insomnia

I hated how it was in vanilla WoW. But the other aspect of it is also boring. You should be a able to kill the group/mob you ingage. Unless it is an elite, that should only be for the very skilled players, if it should even be possible. I hated the part that you might just get overrun, in vanilla wow, just due to how mobs spawned. I don't think you should be able to kill mobs more that 1, maybe 2 levels higher than you and it should be a single mob, maybe with a mob around your level or lower,. But it should still require skill/gear etc to pull off

caedwyn

in archeage , first you cant beat the weakest beings without potting
but in the endgame you become so strong ok ?
you can farm mobs 10 at a time yes but if you are like me and you get bored , you pull 20 or 30 mobs ok?
and as mobs gather, they get a buff called "the gathering" which signifantly reduces their damage taken and boosts their damage dealing to you.

Wandering Mist

There is a fine line to be had here. Make the leveling mobs too hard and newer players will quit before they reach the level cap. But make it too easy and you trivialise the content and experienced players get bored. Balancing the 2 is extremely difficult, especially during the leveling phase. At end-game it's a lot easier to balance because you can assume that players have reached a certain skill level, therefore closing the gap between the newer players and the experienced players. Should leveling mobs be a threat? Yes, to a certain extent, but more importantly they should encourage the player to adapt and use all their abilities. That is after all one of the reasons why mmorpgs have a leveling system, to teach players how to play. If you can get to the level cap by only using 1-2 of your abilities, then the leveling system has failed in my opinion. There's no point giving players CC abilities if they never need to use them.

On a related note, there is a big difference between difficulty and engagement. Just because a mob is hard to kill doesn't necessarily mean it is better than an easier to kill mob. Vanilla WoW leveling wasn't actually hard, just very time consuming and boring. The mobs you were fighting didn't really do anything special, they were just so numerous and hit so hard that you had to take them out one at a time. That is not my idea of fun.

Think of it this way. I'm trying to paint a wall, and I have a big brush and a small brush. If I use the small brush I'm not really making the job harder, just more time-consuming. Vanilla WoW is like using the small brush, whereas modern WoW is using the big brush.

I know this will never happen but I'd love to see an mmorpg with multiple leveling difficulties. For example, there could be an easy mode where the mobs aren't really a threat, designed for newer players. Then you have a harder mode where the mobs are more dangerous but reward you with more exp. The theory is that if you are good enough, you'll be able to level up faster on the hard mode compared to the easy mode. This would reward more skilled players while still giving newer players a chance to learn in a safe environment.

Jokuc

Well not all of them, obviously there will be weak mobs too. But yes there should be mobs that should be able to kill you. Look at Maguuma in gw2, full of Mordrem everywhere that kill you in 5 seconds if you're not careful. Actually makes you play the game instead of just mindlessly walking through it

leamese

Yes

AurumVitae

I would prefer intelligent monsters to tough "mobs". I find grinding mobs boring (they're just mobile targets, after all).

When I was playing WoW (a long time ago), I remember the kobolds in Goldshire. I kept wondering why they just stood there while I slaughtered their friends. I thought it would be cool if they raised the alarm and formed a militia to fight off players, maybe retreating underground and gathering before sending out raiding parties against Goldshire (assuming they could find it) before their ire eventually died down and they went back to normal. They could even have used the healer/tank/dps strategy so beloved by players. Being not very bright, and cowards at heart, they could even do silly things, like the healer cowering in horror while the rest got slaughtered, or the tank running away while the others fought. Maybe one of the kobolds gets so excited he attacks his own party instead of the enemy they're fighting. Of course, more powerful and intelligent enemies would have more effective tactics and discipline.

I know that level of AI is difficult (if not impossible) to program, and very difficult to implement on a scale the size of the world that AoC will be, but it would be nice if the NPC enemies were something other than simple 1-strategy target dummies.

And yes, a mob on your level should have a chance to kill you if you're not on your game, but not be so difficult that a bit of lag gets you killed. It's a tricky balance.

Damokles

AurumVitae wrote: »

I would prefer intelligent monsters to tough "mobs". I find grinding mobs boring (they're just mobile targets, after all).

When I was playing WoW (a long time ago), I remember the kobolds in Goldshire. I kept wondering why they just stood there while I slaughtered their friends. I thought it would be cool if they raised the alarm and formed a militia to fight off players, maybe retreating underground and gathering before sending out raiding parties against Goldshire (assuming they could find it) before their ire eventually died down and they went back to normal. They could even have used the healer/tank/dps strategy so beloved by players. Being not very bright, and cowards at heart, they could even do silly things, like the healer cowering in horror while the rest got slaughtered, or the tank running away while the others fought. Maybe one of the kobolds gets so excited he attacks his own party instead of the enemy they're fighting. Of course, more powerful and intelligent enemies would have more effective tactics and discipline.

I know that level of AI is difficult (if not impossible) to program, and very difficult to implement on a scale the size of the world that AoC will be, but it would be nice if the NPC enemies were something other than simple 1-strategy target dummies.

And yes, a mob on your level should have a chance to kill you if you're not on your game, but not be so difficult that a bit of lag gets you killed. It's a tricky balance.

That kind of high-level AI would make it impossible to quest for solo players though^^

T Elf

There should be all types of mobs, easy to kill, ones you may be able to sneak by, challenging, groups that need crowd control (I miss the days when mezz mattered), and groups that will kill you if you pull too many (remembering the days when you had to be careful how you pulled and had a designated puller). Those were the good ol' days of MMOs...hope we get those again.

Wandering Mist

Damokles wrote: »

AurumVitae wrote: »

I would prefer intelligent monsters to tough "mobs". I find grinding mobs boring (they're just mobile targets, after all).

When I was playing WoW (a long time ago), I remember the kobolds in Goldshire. I kept wondering why they just stood there while I slaughtered their friends. I thought it would be cool if they raised the alarm and formed a militia to fight off players, maybe retreating underground and gathering before sending out raiding parties against Goldshire (assuming they could find it) before their ire eventually died down and they went back to normal. They could even have used the healer/tank/dps strategy so beloved by players. Being not very bright, and cowards at heart, they could even do silly things, like the healer cowering in horror while the rest got slaughtered, or the tank running away while the others fought. Maybe one of the kobolds gets so excited he attacks his own party instead of the enemy they're fighting. Of course, more powerful and intelligent enemies would have more effective tactics and discipline.

I know that level of AI is difficult (if not impossible) to program, and very difficult to implement on a scale the size of the world that AoC will be, but it would be nice if the NPC enemies were something other than simple 1-strategy target dummies.

And yes, a mob on your level should have a chance to kill you if you're not on your game, but not be so difficult that a bit of lag gets you killed. It's a tricky balance.

That kind of high-level AI would make it impossible to quest for solo players though^^

Agreed. The only game I've seen with such advanced AI was the original guild wars, where the mobs fought in cohesive groups and were programmed to target the casters and healers first. The thing is, that game was designed entirely around group combat (there was no such thing as solo play - you either had other players or npcs with you at all times).

Intelligent mobs that fight together sound fantastic in theory, but rarely work out in practice. Some of the most hated bosses in the dark souls games are the fights where you have to fight more than 1 opponent.

AurumVitae

Damokles wrote: »

That kind of high-level AI would make it impossible to quest for solo players though^^

It would make it more challenging. You couldn't solo the groups, but you could pick off the strays. Or just wait for it to reset. Or wait until one of the wandering groups stopped to attack something, and then take them out one by one.

You would have to get creative, which is where the fun comes in!

It would also be something to consider when designing the system, like maybe limit NPC groups to 3, make sure they don't work together well, etc. As in the AI wouldn't just be fighting, but role playing appropriately to the monsters level.

But for the most part, you would probably be right, and like I said, it's probably impossible to make work anyway.

Damokles

AurumVitae wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

That kind of high-level AI would make it impossible to quest for solo players though^^

It would make it more challenging. You couldn't solo the groups, but you could pick off the strays. Or just wait for it to reset. Or wait until one of the wandering groups stopped to attack something, and then take them out one by one.

You would have to get creative, which is where the fun comes in!

Lets be serious. No solo player would like it to wait for adds to "reset" so they could do their quests.
It would maybe be okay for group quests, but even then the adds should not be smart enough to alert more then the surrounding adds.
I know what you mean with the feeling that it can be a bit dumb, when you kill an add around 35m away from the next add and the aggro range is 30m.

AurumVitae wrote: »

It would also be something to consider when designing the system, like maybe limit NPC groups to 3, make sure they don't work together well, etc. As in the AI wouldn't just be fighting, but role playing appropriately to the monsters level.

But for the most part, you would probably be right, and like I said, it's probably impossible to make work anyway.

I can get behind the idea of roleplaying adds, because that would give the whole world some more depth, but that would require them to customize so many different dialogues between the NPCs, that it would not be efficient and would rather set the release back even further. ;D

But trust me, the moment that someone invents the fulldive system, this should be totally implemented xD

Mushin

Devs should look at Capcom games cause I feel they are the best at designing enemies. Monster hunter and dragons dogma are some examples.

Wandering Mist

AurumVitae wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

That kind of high-level AI would make it impossible to quest for solo players though^^

It would make it more challenging. You couldn't solo the groups, but you could pick off the strays. Or just wait for it to reset. Or wait until one of the wandering groups stopped to attack something, and then take them out one by one.

You would have to get creative, which is where the fun comes in!

It would also be something to consider when designing the system, like maybe limit NPC groups to 3, make sure they don't work together well, etc. As in the AI wouldn't just be fighting, but role playing appropriately to the monsters level.

But for the most part, you would probably be right, and like I said, it's probably impossible to make work anyway.

In my experience, forcing a player to go slowly in the way you describe is more frustrating than challenging. Again it doesn't really make the fights harder, just more time-consuming because you spend more time waiting for the mobs to split up than actually killing them. Not only that but you need to consider the tools a player has available to them. Early on in the leveling process, characters usually don't have many abilities, which limits their options when handling groups of enemies. There's no point in having a level 10 spell caster mob that needs to be interrupted if you don't give the players an interrupt skill until level 20.

Chung

azathoth wrote: »

Yes! I wouldn't consider it an RPG if death wasn't an option.
Should perma-death be implemented? That would be different, and likely end with a mass exodus from the game.

Chronicles of Elyria will have perma-death (you die of old age) which will result in a player having to spend real money for a new character. Luckily, perma-death only occurs about once every 12 months or so.

seaber

No. It should be impossible to be killed by any mobs, even if you are afk with no gear. /s

arzosah wrote: »

absolutely, if there is no risk the game gets boring.

https://www.ukat.co.uk/gambling-addiction/
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Amist

Of course

bloodprophet

Yes mobs should be able to kill you. The idea of grabbing 3-30 mobs at a time is and surviving it is ludicrous unless they are as plentiful as blades of grass and give 1exp at most.
Having to plan your fight and fight for your life is part of the fun. I want the challenge. I want extra mobs to get pulled from time to time and have to scramble to survive. Otherwise put a big red I win button on the log in screen so I can go do other stuff.
I think there are plenty of ways to do this. Mobs that call for help or flee at double speed looking for help. What ever it take so the wilderness feels wild and dangerous. Others called out CC (god I hope so). Hope CC is needed often.
Some of my fondest memories in MMO's come from the scramble and barley winning.
Fist time my guild in SWTOR did Kragga's place raid. Was at the end of our time. We pulled just to see the fight was me healing and a melee DPS at the end running around trying to win. WE DID! Purely through the scramble and will to win.
Same applies to the open world really hope it is dangerous.

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