DPS Meter Megathread

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Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

Are higher level players synced for low level dungeons in Archeage?

nope, not at all.

The usual situation is that the high level player tells the new player to wait at the entrance, clears the zone in a few minutes, and then tells the new player to run to the end so they can both get their rewards.

Boring content for both players.

Wow, that's pretty sad. At least in FFXIV the levels are synced so you can't do that.

kriin

I did a low level raid on an alt a few times for achievement points and had higher players mentoring down to our level. It was my 1st time in the zone and wanted to know the zone better but we kill everything super fast because the raid gear on the mentors where still op. As a healer I didnt do or learn much of anything.

Dygz

wanderingmist wrote: »

@noaani FFXIV tried to fix the problem of low level raids being made redundant by having them mandatory for the main story, and offering increased rewards for players who queued for them who have already done them. It's a disaster in my opinion, at least in that game.

The problem with such a system is that it forces together 2 types of players that would normally not do a dungeon together. On the one side you have the players who enjoy the story and are progressing through it for the first time. These players will naturally want to go slower and explore a bit as they go. On the flip side you have players who have done it before and are just there for the rewards. They want to go through as fast as possible including skipping through the cutscenes and running past the trash mobs to trigger each cutscene.

As a new player going through the story for the first time, it was a complete nightmare and turned what was supposed to be the epic conclusion of the story into a mad dash as I desperately tried to keep up with the players who knew the route and were intent on going as fast as possible.

Yes. Explorers and people wanting to experience the story in a group with folk just there for speed runs is frustrating for both playstyles.
This shouldn't be as much of an issue in Ashes because dungeons and raids are, by design, more dynamic than in typical MMORPGs. Speed runs should be rare because dungeons and raids will usually be changing too much to be able to use cookie-cutter strategies repeatedly.
Though I still expect some from tension between casual Explorer/Socializers and hardcore Killer/Achievers when in the same group/raid. Hopefully, they will be able to adventure alongside each other rather than being forced to formally join the party/raid in order to get credit for defeating the challenge(s).

Azryil

Without an automated dungeon finder system, this likely wont be as much of a problem since groups can filter out players whose goals don't match up.

Caelron

Everybody in this thread basically just proved the initial point: They would cause more harm than good.

I love seeing how I'm personally doing, and big numbers flash across the screen (even if they're just damage numbers, not a meter), but a Damage meter or DPS meter would end up hurting the overall game.

That being said, the "best" compromise would be an in-game damage meter or DPS meter ONLY next to a target dummy in a very select place in-town, like a class training room.

That way, the individual person knows what he/she/it is capable of, what abilities have the best potential for damage, etc. But, it completely excludes real context, such as:
Another player fighting back; a boss fighting back; dodging and dealing with mechanics; environmental factors; crowd control or other utilities that are needed; cooperation with other players; other player's buffs, debuffs, or skills that could affect yours; armor and stats of the thing you're attacking; and many many more potential factors that could affect gameplay.

I'm the type of player that wouldn't mind having no numbers appear as someone/something is attacked. I might not even want a health bar, since it helps the realism and immersion factors.
Buuuuut, it is a game, and I like flashy things, so I wouldn't a health bar mind too much.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

I enjoy lower level raids, but there are a few inherent issues with them that I have yet to see any game deal to in a satisfactory manner.

The first is that they usually only stay relevant for a few months after launch. It isn't that they are no longer worth killing, its that after the initial wave of characters level past lower level content, it becomes harder and harder to find enough people of an appropriate level to kill the encounter without resorting to using higher level characters.

The second is that if it is open world content, it can cause players later on in a games life to get upset at content they can see but can't kill due to not enough interest.

Seems like that would be the case if that content is static in a way that Ashes will, by design, not be.
The levels of content in each region should rise and fall as the Node stages rise and fall.
But, again, there's also supposed to be a meaningful narrative reason to defeat these bosses - like the Winter Dragon causing a perpetual Winter - which will motivate people affected by the region to want to defeat the boss - regardless of level.

noaani wrote: »

While I see an argument against it, to me, if content requires gear or abilities that are only likely to be obtained at the level cap - or if the path to get that item or ability is so long that a player will likely level to the cap while perusing it - then I consider the content that requires that item or ability to be end game by default.

That's content for max character level, for sure. But, in Ashes, that's not indicative of the end of the game.
Especially since reaching max character level is not indicative of reaching the end of the game.

noaani wrote: »

I totally agree with the notion that "end game" content is content that is only available at max level, rather than content that is also available at max level (which I would usually simply refer to as "content"). However, my definition of this is more along the lines of whether a character not at the level cap is able to be of actual use rather than just dead weight on a raid.

That's the semantic issue... if there is one. End game content is not defined as content that is only available at max level. Though, yeah, if your perspective is all about how useful a character in raids designed for level cap, you might consider endgame and level cap to be synonymous. It works well enough for traditional MMORPGs.
But, Ashes design is significantly different.

noaani wrote: »

Now, to be fair I am not saying that all raid content in Ashes would be considered end game. I have no doubt there would be raids where someone a level or two below the cap could participate and be of value. However, that content is not the challenging content that Steven has talked about in the past, as if a sub-level cap character is able to be of use, then a level cap player would be of even more use, thus the content wouldn't be challenging.

Ashes doesn't really have endgame content.
Ashes will have max level raids. Those raids generally won't be repeatable in the manner they are in typical MMORPGs.

Caelron

I'm also loving the topic discussion, mostly between @noaani and @dygz ... but it seems off-topic for this thread (DPS meters.)

Could we branch this in to a new discussion? I want to be included, too!
Both of you are have valid points, but it's essentially a never-ending theory discussion until we actually receive in-game statistics.

What I mean by statistics is, strength, will, dexterity, health, mana, energy, etc. For players as well as pve monsters/creatures. I also think that armor and weapon stats should be included. And most importantly: progression.

Will it be like d&d? In terms of raw stats, a Rogue could potentially have 12 Strength at level 1, and still only 12 Strength at level 20, or even in to epic levels. It's also possible for one of the most powerful dragons in the game at a Great Wyrm age/size to have less than 10 Dexterity.
So if the leveling system only really adds one or two character stats every 3-4 levels, then progression will have to come from other areas: skills, abilities, spells, items, magic, etc.

As a different example, in many of the original RPGs, such as Final Fantasy - it's possible to "beat" the entire game without ever reaching max level. Of course, max level makes things much easier and faster to deal with.

Sooo, if the story never really ends, then there's no "end game". And if almost everything is going to be open world, then really clever or skillful players will be able to compete with a min/max character, or still able to provide a benefit other than a numbers game.

A different example: Nexus TK is a game where once you reach max level (level 99), you sell your character's accumulated experience for more stat points - health and mana in particular. There's essentially no limit to how much health or mana you can have - and since many abilities are based on health/mana, there's no limit on how strong you can be (basically). However, a crazy stat warrior will be able to kill things MUCH faster and more efficiently than a Rogue. So much so that the only purpose a Rogue has at the high-end stat game is to lay down traps that benefit the warrior. This also means that a very low stat Rogue can do the exact same job as a high stat one - the only difference being the high health/mana Rogue has more survivability.

This actually relates to the discussion of DPS meters. If the classes are balanced around utility instead of numbers - then it's possible for a lower level character to raid high-end content if he/she is adept at bringing their utility. Based on all of the discussions about the Bard - the entire class is essentially built around its ability to help other classes. So if a level 4 bard somehow has the ability to afford a maxed-level buffing spell ('cause we don't know if there's level restrictions on anything - only node-level restrictions based on accessibility), it should still be useful to bring that level 4 bard to the hardest raid there is - assuming he/she can survive.

seaber

dygz wrote: »

Yes. Explorers and people wanting to experience the story in a group with folk just there for speed runs is frustrating for both playstyles.

Please don't sterotype explorers. Some of us like going fast.

CrazySquiggle

seaber wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

Yes. Explorers and people wanting to experience the story in a group with folk just there for speed runs is frustrating for both playstyles.

Please don't sterotype explorers. Some of us like going fast.

Sonic fast?

seaber

whitedude31 wrote: »

seaber wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

Yes. Explorers and people wanting to experience the story in a group with folk just there for speed runs is frustrating for both playstyles.

Please don't sterotype explorers. Some of us like going fast.

Sonic fast?

CrazySquiggle

seaber wrote: »

whitedude31 wrote: »

seaber wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

Yes. Explorers and people wanting to experience the story in a group with folk just there for speed runs is frustrating for both playstyles.

Please don't sterotype explorers. Some of us like going fast.

Sonic fast?

No

well you're no fun :P

Dygz

If the shoe don't fit don't wear it.

Noaani

dygz wrote: »

This shouldn't be as much of an issue in Ashes because dungeons and raids are, by design, more dynamic than in typical MMORPGs. Speed runs should be rare because dungeons and raids will usually be changing too much to be able to use cookie-cutter strategies repeatedly.

I'm not so sure all content will always change all that much.

Since content is tied to the nodes around it (purely to the level of the node as far as I am aware), once a metropolis is established, it is absolutely feasible that the node and those around it would stay as is for months on end - meaning the content in that area will stay the same for months on end.

The above said, this won't be the case at the start of the game, nor will it ever be the case further away from the more popular nodes on a given server. Those nodes - and thus the content around them - will change often and so in these areas I do agree that things like that will be less of an issue (or not an issue at all).

However, as a metropolis being taken down is an event that literally changes the shape of the server, I personally don't expect it to happen more than once every 6 months on any given server - not due to any limit other than the difficulty (in terms of material needs and player desire) in actually taking down a metropolis

dygz wrote: »

That's content for max character level, for sure. But, in Ashes, that's not indicative of the end of the game.

This may be a part of the miscommunication or misunderstanding, but end game content does not, despite the name, have to signify the end of the game.

In fact, all good end game content is in itself a progression path (often a horizontal one, though not always), so simply can't all be the end of the game, as there is still progress to be made.

wanderingmist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

Are higher level players synced for low level dungeons in Archeage?

nope, not at all.

The usual situation is that the high level player tells the new player to wait at the entrance, clears the zone in a few minutes, and then tells the new player to run to the end so they can both get their rewards.

Boring content for both players.

Wow, that's pretty sad. At least in FFXIV the levels are synced so you can't do that.

Yeah, it really was sad.

To me though, that is the story of Archeage, a brilliant game that had incompetent developers and a publisher that didn't understand the importance of reputation.

So much wasted potential in that game...

Noaani

caelron wrote: »

That being said, the "best" compromise would be an in-game damage meter or DPS meter ONLY next to a target dummy in a very select place in-town, like a class training room.

This is an ok compromise, and is one I'd be happier with than having absolutely nothing.

However, if they had this, I'd want them to add in mechanics that various encounters have so that players can see how a different mechanic or ability that an enemy has affects how they operate against that specific mechanic or ability. It's one thing to know how you operate in a vacuum, but another thing all together to see how you operate under many hundreds of different circumstances.

Because of this, while I'd accept a training dummy based meter, I'd rather a full combat tracker that is n option for guilds to purchase, and only works with other guild members in your group/raid.

Samiel Aurous

@whitedude31 The DPS meter was already declined by Steven to making an appearance. Reasoning was to keep people from setting a DPS requirement from excluding people from Guilds/raid groups.

I personally like them for the reasons you said earlier but it is one of those things where some guilds abuse the usefulness it can offer to exclude some people. It does contribute to a toxic environment indirectly.

consultant

I think it is important to know were you are at so you can get better. You many be having a lot of fun and doing decent damage. But if you do not know how much better you can actually do then you might never get there. For example if you do a raid and another player palying the same class as does 50 percent moredps than you (lets say gear is about same.) That lets you know just how much you could improve.

Thinke Peter said something about parses making the game toxic the I do not want to play with you cause you do not do enough dps. Well really do not see how they can get away from that even if they were no dps meters in game. Toons would just time you to see how long it would take you to kill some monster.

I already posted about this recommended dps for raids should be known. Not talking about being mean. But in raids even dungeuons their is a certain amount of group dps that has to be done or it is a wipe.
So If a player knows what is expected and goes in prepared then more likely to have a positive raid experience.

I played with out a dps meter for a really long time and would get kicked from groups for low dps not having a clue what my dps was or what it should.

Dygz

Yeah. I still don't necessarily care about how much we could "improve" as long as we're having fun defeating the bosses/content. If we have a low record of eventually finding a winning strategy - that might be a problem.
But, my groups have always found a winning strategy eventually.

Rather than rely on a dps meters, I'd prefer to recognize that when the Tank uses his Winter Hammer ultimate to make his target more vulnerable to Ice attacks, that's the ideal time for the Mages to hit the same target with Ice Prison and Ice Sheet.
Especially if my Mages consider themselves to be Ice Wizards rather than Fire Wizards, I care more about them succeeding with their RP preferences than I do about them having higher DPS if they used Fire spells instead of Ice spells.

Caelron

dygz wrote: »

Rather than rely on a dps meters, I'd prefer to recognize that when the Tank uses his Winter Hammer ultimate to make his target more vulnerable to Ice attacks, that's the ideal time for the Mages to hit the same target with Ice Prison and Ice Sheet.
Especially if my Mages consider themselves to be Ice Wizards rather than Fire Wizards, I care more about them succeeding with their RP preferences than I do about them having higher DPS if they used Fire spells instead of Ice spells.

At risk of being off-topic again, I really hope immunities/resistances/(whatever you want to call it) are a thing. If you're fighting a magical ice beast, an ice mage should do little to no damage with out other type of magic boosting spell penetration or lowering the ice beasts natural resistances. Who knows? Maybe the ice mage just ends up making the ice beast more powerful, or it only heals it instead?

Noaani

dygz wrote: »

I care more about them succeeding with their RP preferences than I do about them having higher DPS if they used Fire spells instead of Ice spells.

While this is perfectly fine for most players on most content, if there is to be content that is to be defeated by a single digit portion of the player base, this kind of thinking doesn't work.

With content that hard, every character in the raid needs to be optimized for the specific encounter. If that optimization isn't a requirement, then more than 10% of the population will kill that content.

Once again, this is where the disconnect here is. You are talking about a tool for power players, but from a non power player perspective. It's like someone not at all interested in RP throwing in their thoughts on a tool specifically designed for RP, or a non-crafter throwing their thoughts in on a tool specifically designed for crafters.

Not every tool is supposed to be for every player. They could well add a system to keep track of in game achievements, and that is something I will never even look at - it is also something I will never post much about as I know others will make use of it as a feature in the game. If the game is going to support the achiever player, then they absolutely should have a system by which to track achievements.

A DPS meter is a tool that is not supposed to be for every player. If any individual wants to run groups or raids without it, that absolutely should be a path that is open to them. On the flip side though, if the game is to support the power player, then it should provide tools that the power player needs.

Azathoth

I understand that a DPS/ACT is a tool for a specific play set, and that not everyone will want to use the tool. However, when other players require you to report out what the tool says in order to do group content, then it is a tool that will be required.

So for me there is a disconnect there. If asked "What is your X-stat during raids?" and "Sorry, I don't use the DPS" is acceptable as an answer, then I don't think anyone here would have an issue with a DPS/ACT being in game. For sure try to find another group that doesn't care as much about one and is still willing to raid, but if the DPS/ACT is optional, then it shouldn't be a requirement to play with others.

Will need to start a no DPS/ACT guild based on the feel of the character and talent.

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