Ashes, Endgame, and The Neverending Story

Cross-post from another thread regarding Ashes putting an end to endgame:

@caelron wrote:

[This is] essentially a never-ending theory discussion until we actually receive in-game statistics.

What I mean by statistics is, strength, will, dexterity, health, mana, energy, etc. For players as well as pve monsters/creatures. I also think that armor and weapon stats should be included. And most importantly: progression.

Will it be like d&d? In terms of raw stats, a Rogue could potentially have 12 Strength at level 1, and still only 12 Strength at level 20, or even in to epic levels. It's also possible for one of the most powerful dragons in the game at a Great Wyrm age/size to have less than 10 Dexterity.
So if the leveling system only really adds one or two character stats every 3-4 levels, then progression will have to come from other areas: skills, abilities, spells, items, magic, etc.

As a different example, in many of the original RPGs, such as Final Fantasy - it's possible to "beat" the entire game without ever reaching max level. Of course, max level makes things much easier and faster to deal with.

Sooo, if the story never really ends, then there's no "end game". And if almost everything is going to be open world, then really clever or skillful players will be able to compete with a min/max character, or still able to provide a benefit other than a numbers game.

A different example: Nexus TK is a game where once you reach max level (level 99), you sell your character's accumulated experience for more stat points - health and mana in particular. There's essentially no limit to how much health or mana you can have - and since many abilities are based on health/mana, there's no limit on how strong you can be (basically). However, a crazy stat warrior will be able to kill things MUCH faster and more efficiently than a Rogue. So much so that the only purpose a Rogue has at the high-end stat game is to lay down traps that benefit the warrior. This also means that a very low stat Rogue can do the exact same job as a high stat one - the only difference being the high health/mana Rogue has more survivability.

This actually relates to the discussion of DPS meters. If the classes are balanced around utility instead of numbers - then it's possible for a lower level character to raid high-end content if he/she is adept at bringing their utility. Based on all of the discussions about the Bard - the entire class is essentially built around its ability to help other classes. So if a level 4 bard somehow has the ability to afford a maxed-level buffing spell ('cause we don't know if there's level restrictions on anything - only node-level restrictions based on accessibility), it should still be useful to bring that level 4 bard to the hardest raid there is - assuming he/she can survive.

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Dygz

Yeah.
I’m not sure what you mean by recruiting NPCs, other than establishing new settlements, but...
I expect we will be providing safety and gathering a variety of resources.
And... we’ll have to see whether quests/tasks for racial, religious and social progression are available at the starting areas, in addition to quests/tasks for adventuring and crafting progression.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

This shouldn't be as much of an issue in Ashes because dungeons and raids are, by design, more dynamic than in typical MMORPGs. Speed runs should be rare because dungeons and raids will usually be changing too much to be able to use cookie-cutter strategies repeatedly.

I'm not so sure all content will always change all that much.

Since content is tied to the nodes around it (purely to the level of the node as far as I am aware), once a metropolis is established, it is absolutely feasible that the node and those around it would stay as is for months on end - meaning the content in that area will stay the same for months on end.

The above said, this won't be the case at the start of the game, nor will it ever be the case further away from the more popular nodes on a given server. Those nodes - and thus the content around them - will change often and so in these areas I do agree that things like that will be less of an issue (or not an issue at all).

However, as a metropolis being taken down is an event that literally changes the shape of the server, I personally don't expect it to happen more than once every 6 months on any given server - not due to any limit other than the difficulty (in terms of material needs and player desire) in actually taking down a metropolis

We can’t be certain what it truly will be until we play and see how much of the design goals are fulfilled.
So, my comments are about the design goals as stated by the devs; not about actual gameplay. Too early to comment about actual gameplay.

Content isn’t just tied to nearby Nodes. Progression of a Node can also affect content several regions away from that Node.

It’s not just the Metro(s) that will be affecting content. The rise and fall of vassal Nodes will also be affecting content. So, we won’t have to destroy the Metro(s) to significantly change the content, we can do that even with successful sieges of the Stage 1 and Stage 2 vassal Nodes - especially destroying and rebuilding Stage 3 and above vassal Nodes.
Even with Metros, we can change the content by constructing different buildings.

Regardless of all that, for the most part, boss battles, by design, will change session to session, raid to raid and in between combat.
And once the boss is defeated, it will move to a new location/region/environment.
That Winter Dragon causing the perpetual winter is not going to remain where it is after it’s defeated just so people can improve their DPS scores.
If a Winter Dragon reappears, it will be in a new location/environment.

noaani wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

That's content for max character level, for sure. But, in Ashes, that's not indicative of the end of the game.

This may be a part of the miscommunication or misunderstanding, but end game content does not, despite the name, have to signify the end of the game.

In fact, all good end game content is in itself a progression path (often a horizontal one, though not always), so simply can't all be the end of the game, as there is still progress to be made.

Right. Technically, Endgame is only figuratively the end of the game.
Endgame is when a character has reached max character level, completed all the available storyline quests and all that’s left are repeatable dailies, weeklies, dungeons and raids.
For at least the last 6 years, many people will say that Endgame is the start of the real game.

When devs say they are putting an end to Endgame, they mean reaching max character level does not put an end to experiencing new storyline quests - a key part of making that happen is by requiring the players to build the cities and making it possible for those cities to be destroyed. Another is by introducing forms of “meaningful” PvP conflict. More meaningful than just race wars or stealing loot.
With Ashes, the addition of racial, religious and social progression provides more to after reaching max level than repeatable dailies, weeklies, dungeons and raids.
And on top of that, all the permutations of quests and tasks that can arise from race/type/region/stage combos churning out new NPCs and new mobs (the stats and abilities of those individual NPCs and mobs also changing with Node progression.

Putting an end to Endgame does not mean there will be no max level content or there will be no raids.
It means the opposite: that at max character level there will be a plethora of new, dynamic content beyond being restricted to repeatable dailies, weeklies, dungeons and raids.

The reason to raid the Winter Dragon won’t just be to achieve a server first or acquire BiS gear or top a leaderboard. People will also be raising the Winter Dragon to put an end to the perpetual winter so they can obtain resources only attainable during non-winter seasons.
For the most part, that Winter Dragon is not going to re-pop a couple hours after it’s been defeated. And it’s not going to re-pop the next winter or every other winter. When and if it re-pops, it won’t re-pop in the same location.
Even from battle to battle, before it’s finally defeated, it likely won’t have the same minions and may not use the exact same abilities and tactics.
According to the design goals.
Won’t always be the case - you are the one stating always - but it will be the case for the most part.

With regard to DPS meters and combat trackers - since the devs don’t want to support them, that means they should be superfluous to defeating bosses.
We should expect defeating raid bosses to be more organic and immersive than relying on dry data from DPS meters and combat trackers.

At the end of the day, I just care that we found a way to end the perpetual winter, I don’t really care about how efficiently we accomplished it.
Hopefully, it results in a great story.
Great stories often also include overcoming epic fails and adversity, but still rallying to find a winning strategy.

Caelron

I imagine quite a bit of the gameplay will change through the Alpha and Beta testing - but not by a whole lot.

I'm sure Intrepid Studios is reading these threads and doing their best to get a good understanding of what people like and what people don't... especially the Dev questions they've been asking.

I even find conflict in myself - I want something lasting and meaningful with my character. I want to adventure and explore and have a meaningful character progression - especially even at lower levels. One of the best ways to do that is make sure the time invested means something.

On the other side of things, I've grown up! I have a job and a family, and just now have a 3-month old newborn! It's exciting and it's own wonderful adventure. But, that also means that I have a LOT less time than I used to - so I also want things that I can do quickly and easily and still get enjoyment out of it.

An example - I've started playing Overwatch at times because I can have quick and easy matches - 5-10 minutes of gameplay, and then I probably have to attend to the baby. Trying to get through a dungeon in WoW is rarely ever that quick, and if it is - you better be at the top of the tier in gear with other people who know what they're doing and probably play a lot together... i.e. it will never happen now, since I can't grind for hours a day just to keep up with things.

I want the things I collect in Ashes to be meaningful a few months after I get it, too.

Dygz

Hmmn. That last bit has me thinking about advanced weapons.
I prefer having signature weapons and gear so that I can be easily recognized from a distance.

Advanced weapons can have up to 5 weapon abilities. Weapon combos lead up to an ultimate effect.
Along the lines of what I’m hoping for is that players who know this weapon will know how to get the most bang for the buck out my ultimate attack. Maybe the ultimate from my Winter Hammer causes victims to be more vulnerable to Ice abilities, so the best time for Mages to cast Ice Prison is after I hit an opponent with that Winter Hammer ultimate.

Especially during Sieges or Caravans, I might want to swap that out with a different weapon if there are adversarial players who know the weapon abilities of my Winter Hammer.

But, that’s another example of the type of gameplay I’d prefer to encounter, rather than relying on DPS meters and combat trackers.

Might be that Ice-based mobs aren’t affected by, or are highly resistant to, my Winter Hammer ultimate, so I’ll want to swap weapons on those occasions, too, but...
In general, the items I collect would be useful throughout the game.
I hope for that, too. Yes.

I see two spectra of hardcore and casual: time and challenge.

I am still hardcore time/casual challenge. I’m single with no kids.

I think 20 years ago, a major portion of the MMORPG playerbase was hardcore time/hardcore challenge.
But, now most MMORPG players are some form of casual.
Even players who would prefer to experience hardcore challenges only have casual time, thus quite a lot of them have to limit themselves to more casual challenges.
Harcdcore time/harcdcore challenge players are probably a small percentage of the MMORPG playerbase these days.
And MMORPG devs will have to design for that phenomenon.

I don’t know that time investment has to be paramount to have a meaningful experience in Ashes.
Could be that being voted in as a leader of a Scientific Node feels meaningful, especially as you see the Node and region progress based on your governing decisions.
That might feel fulfilling even without 10+ hours in the game each week.

grisu

You can call it whatever you want, loot boxes, surprise mechanics, endgame, the devil, the stuff you do the most after reaching a certain point of playtime.
I for once don't see why people are so avert to end game as a concept and I certainly find it silly to disregard it as a timefiller to wait for the next major update. Is that where the bad rep comes from?
Just because you don't want to see that the node concept in itself is the endgame doesn't make it any less true. Your majority of your time will be spent around it, raising it, maintaining it, defending it, razing it to the ground.
Building your character, equiping it, honing your skills, raiding, dungeoneering, exploring, crafting. It all will aid or guide your decisions in keeping your chosen node alive. Endgame might take on more divers forms as, let's say WoW, but for the individual it will be the endgame.

The sentiment about utility seems interesting, but if the sole dividing factor is surviving then what's crafting about and the myriad of stats/-combinations/-weights that they want to have to individualize yourself? How would that matter? Vertical progression exists, it was talked about, you will max out at some point in a major regard, it will probably be what is commonly refered to as, the soft cap. Utility will come after that/at the same time in the form of horizontal progression.

"Multiple playstyles should be relevant and viable. Additionally, you have a spread between casual players and hard-core players; and most of us exist somewhere on that spectrum. The progression path in a society or religion is more conducive to the time we have to play. Whereas, someone else may be playing several hours a day, and they have a better opportunity for the raid/level progression that might require some more dedication."

- Steven Sharif

Raiding might not be the BE ALL END ALL of the game, but if it drops amazing materials to make stuff for your character, everyone who can will be doing it for as long as the raid is available, If that is tied to the lifespan of a node, even if it's just for 2 months, it will be their endgame until it is replaced with a different activity that is on the same level, or steps will be taken to progress a node to make it happen.

If you don't want to call that end game, fine by me, but it sure looks like it.

Dygz

What I am adverse to is being stuck in an MMORPG in a state where the only stuff to do at max level for years is repeatable dailies, weeklies, dungeons and raids. You can call that a lootbox instead of endgame if you want, I suppose.
Whether that is bad or not depends on the individual. Just like it depends on the individual whether loot boxes or the devil are bad.
Lots of people love endgame - which is why the phrase "endgame is the real game" is so popular.

grisu wrote: »

Just because you don't want to see that the node concept in itself is the endgame doesn't make it any less true.

This is like saying, "just because bad means bad that doesn't mean bad can't mean good" or "just because shit is typically thought to be bad that doesn't mean there can't be some 'good shit'."

grisu wrote: »

Your majority of your time will be spent around it, raising it, maintaining it, defending it, razing it to the ground.
Building your character, equipping it, honing your skills, raiding, dungeoneering, exploring, crafting. It all will aid or guide your decisions in keeping your chosen node alive. Endgame might take on more divers forms as, let's say WoW, but for the individual it will be the endgame.

You are the only individual I've seen define endgame as "the stuff you spend the majority of your time doing in an MMORPG". That's not what Daybreak/Intrepid devs mean when they refer to endgame. And that's not what Steven and Jeffrey mean when they refer to endgame. It's also not what I mean when I refer to endgame.

I don't agree with your definition of endgame, but what's most important is that I understand what you mean when you use the label endgame. Because the label is just a shortcut to a concept.
Even if we don't agree on how we label the concepts, we can agree that the Ashes devs are putting an end to being stuck in a state for years where the only thing to do at max level is repeatable dailies, weeklies, dungeons and raids and that Nodes is one of the mechanisms in the design to accomplish that.

grisu wrote: »

The sentiment about utility seems interesting, but if the sole dividing factor is surviving then what's crafting about and the myriad of stats/-combinations/-weights that they want to have to individualize yourself? How would that matter? Vertical progression exists, it was talked about, you will max out at some point in a major regard, it will probably be what is commonly refered to as, the soft cap. Utility will come after that/at the same time in the form of horizontal progression.

The sole dividing factor of what?
Vertical progression exists and horizontal progression exists. I fail to see to see your point.
Horizontal character progression will be a thing before and after vertical character progression caps.
Vertical Node progression will continue to rise and fall after vertical character progression caps. Same with horizontal Node progression. Especially the myriad of new content combinations created by the rise and fall of Nodes is what will put an end to endgame.

grisu wrote: »

Raiding might not be the BE ALL END ALL of the game, but if it drops amazing materials to make stuff for your character, everyone who can will be doing it for as long as the raid is available, If that is tied to the lifespan of a node, even if it's just for 2 months, it will be their endgame until it is replaced with a different activity that is on the same level, or steps will be taken to progress a node to make it happen.

Right. If I understand your point though, the thing of it is that in Ashes, for the most, a raid won't be sticking around for 2 months. And even when/if it does stick around for 2 months, the mechanics of that raid will change from session to session and have significant variance between combat.
Saying the raid "will be their endgame" doesn't make much sense because people could be in that raid who are not even close to max character level, let alone, the "end of the game".

grisu wrote: »

If you don't want to call that end game, fine by me, but it sure looks like it.

Again, what we call something isn't as important as understanding the referents. I speak 4 languages and read even more languages - at the end of the day, what something is called is inconsequential.

The OG meaning of endgame was -back in the early days of vanilla EQ- the end of the game: reaching max character level, having completed all the storyline quests...where the only stuff left to do is repeat the same dungeons and raids, until the devs provide an expansion.
In pen and paper RPGs, like D&D, reaching max level does not equate with reaching the end of the game because new content can be introduced even after reaching max level. Even while waiting for devs to create new official modules, DMs would be able to create their own NPCs, mobs and adventures...instead of players being stuck just repeating the same dungeon or module until the devs provide a new one.

Sure, over the span of 20 years, lots of people use the term endgame to just mean "the stuff you focus on at max level." And we all understand what it means when people do so. Apparently, some people no longer understand how to separate the concepts of max level content and endgame content. (Kinda reminds me of when I was a kid and I couldn't understand that when my mom told me told be to be quiet while I was crying she wasn't telling me to stop crying - she was telling me to cry silently. At the time, the noises I made while crying seemed to be an inseparable feature of the act.)

Back in the days of vanilla EQ and vanilla WoW, endgame didn't feel so bad.
It was cool just to play an RPG with other players whenever you want, rather than having to wait for everyone to be available. Last year, I joined a weekly D&D game that the lead designer of CoE is DMing. It stayed weekly for several months. This year it switched to every other week. And, the last few months it's really ended up being once a month. Which is fairly typical scheduling for pen and paper RPG sessions.
Being able to play anytime in an MMORPG was a blast! Even medding was fun in comparison to only being able to play in the world once or twice a month - we could play 3-6 hours per day, rather than just 3-6 hours per month.
Once we hit "the end of the game" - which took several months back then... we could extend our fun by trying out different races and different classes and exploring the lands and stories available for the opposite factions. Which, again, would take months. By the time we explored the entire world and maxed a few characters, a new expansion would be out. So, endgame didn't feel like a prison.

Over the years, leveling has become much quicker - especially moving through expansions since expansions only cover a handful of levels, rather than 50+ levels and the new areas to explore is just a small fraction of the entire game world. So, instead of it taking several months to reach endgame, it typically only takes a few weeks to reach endgame. But, the wait for new content is the same - if not longer.
And, the dev reaction to ensuring that people maintain their subscriptions while new content is in production is to provide us with lots of repeatable content: dailies, weeklies and lengthy BiS gear hunts in dungeons and raids.
To me, that's like re-reading the final chapter of fantasy novel over-and-over-and-over-and over again while I wait for the author to release a new novel.
Since 2013, I've been burnt out jumping on the themepark treadmill and hitting the endgame wall when it comes to new stories and new content - in addition to hitting the all-too-transparent time-sinks implemented to prolong the journey to endgame.
I'm waiting on MMORPGs that put an end to endgame via the features in designs like those for EQNext, Revival, Ashes of Creation and Chronicles of Elyria.

TL:DR
You can define endgame however you like. We don't necessarily have to agree on the label.
But, when I talk about putting an end to endgame or Ashes not having an endgame, I'm not talking about not having max level content. If I were talking about that, I would state "no max level content" instead of stating "no endgame". If I were talking about not having raids, I would say "no raids" instead of "no endgame".
Endgame isn't just hitting max level. It's possible to use it that way just as some people use coke to refer to all soda/tonic/pop, sure.
Endgame isn't simply "the stuff you focus on when you reach max level".
Endgame isn't simply raiding - in Ashes, raiding and large group based content will be available at every stage of the game.

"Part of the whole experience with nodes is that there is no real end-game, in that the world is constantly shifting every day. Month one is going to be really different from month two; and that's for the level 50s and level 1s." – Jeffrey Bard

But, at the end of the day the labels we choose to use are not as important as the actual concepts.

grisu

Sure if you rip sentences out of context and don't threat it as one whole you will miss points, but I have seen you write for 2 years now, I'm kinda used to it. <shrug> Lootbox -surprise mechanics was a reference to the UK hearing recently. It was a joke on labeling. Which was the whole point of my post.

You are just reinforcing that this whole discussion about the novelty of not having an "endgame"-label is just pretty dressing and nice words, nothing else. Your own example comes down to, they released content fast enough to hide that they have nothing fun in place. You just happen to keep yourself busy with something you personally found enjoyable. That's just bad game design and again weird labeling to call that part end game.

Anyway apparently it's all just about how slow you progress vs how fast content is added. Nice, good premise for a long living game instead of just having enjoyable and repeatable content. (not really)

Dygz

Endgame is just a word.
Whether endgame is fun is a matter of perspective.
The Ashes devs are getting rid of being stuck at max level with nothing to do but repeatable dailies, weeklies, dungeons and raids.
The Ashes devs and I call that endgame. If endgame means something different for you - that’s OK.

Devs releasing content fast enough to hide that they have nothing fun in place is really more your perspective than mine.
The concept of endgame isn’t really about what’s fun. Lots of MMORPG players consider endgame to be the most fun.
For me, enjoyable, repeatable content is an oxymoron.

What I enjoy in RPGs is a never-ending story, so I’m glad the Ashes devs are striving to provide that for us... thereby getting rid of endgame.

It’s not really about slow progression v “new content”.
It’s about having a steady flow of new stuff to do for months and/or years even at max character level rather than just being stuck with static, repeatable content.

Caelron

grisu wrote: »

...<shrug> Lootbox -surprise mechanics was a reference to the UK hearing recently. It was a joke on labeling. Which was the whole point of my post.

I actually caught that reference! Thankfully, Intrepid Studios isn't doing anything crazy like that just yet. As far as I'm concerned, bosses should have defined loot. Hopefully what Intrepid Studios said will be more akin to "If I kill a rabbit, I should expect parts of a rabbit to drop... then I can take those rabbit bits and turn them in to rabbit stew or armor (if it's the fur/skin), etc." Not a random "loot table" where there's a percentage chance an item for each class "might" drop, even though the creature is essentially naked.... maybe it ate an adventurer a long time ago (if it's big enough), or it hordes treasure in a chest somewhere else in its cave, if it's intelligent. Even then, there should be a solid structure - this boss drops this item.

Basically, I think a boss loot table system like WoW is not much different than a loot box and "surprise mechanics".

Don't forget that she also believes that there's no such thing as a gaming addiction, and the loot box system is a moral good. -hard eye roll-

Karthos

caelron wrote: »

Basically, I think a boss loot table system like WoW is not much different than a loot box and "surprise mechanics".

Although I can understand this point I don't agree fully. Loot from a boss is a reward for teamwork, strategy and time put into the game. You don't generally obtain boss loot from an item shop or other out of game mechanics (I'm sure some P2W games do somewhere).

A loot box is not a reward for time spend in the game. It's a reward for time spent out of the game. Why should I spend 8hrs grinding out a full raid clear when I can spend that 8hrs at work and buy the gear I need instead?

Therefore, I see a big difference in a boss loot table and a loot box.

Wandering Mist

caelron wrote: »

grisu wrote: »

...<shrug> Lootbox -surprise mechanics was a reference to the UK hearing recently. It was a joke on labeling. Which was the whole point of my post.

I actually caught that reference! Thankfully, Intrepid Studios isn't doing anything crazy like that just yet. As far as I'm concerned, bosses should have defined loot. Hopefully what Intrepid Studios said will be more akin to "If I kill a rabbit, I should expect parts of a rabbit to drop... then I can take those rabbit bits and turn them in to rabbit stew or armor (if it's the fur/skin), etc." Not a random "loot table" where there's a percentage chance an item for each class "might" drop, even though the creature is essentially naked.... maybe it ate an adventurer a long time ago (if it's big enough), or it hordes treasure in a chest somewhere else in its cave, if it's intelligent. Even then, there should be a solid structure - this boss drops this item.

Basically, I think a boss loot table system like WoW is not much different than a loot box and "surprise mechanics".

Don't forget that she also believes that there's no such thing as a gaming addiction, and the loot box system is a moral good. -hard eye roll-

The only similarity between a boss loot table and a loot box is that they both have RNG attached to them. As Karthos said, loot boxes are "rewards" for doing literally nothing, whereas boss loot is a reward for killing the boss.

I kind of get where you are coming from, but the thing about people is that a little bit of randomness is a good thing in certain circumstances. If you had a boss that always drops the same loot, or that you are guaranteed to get the same loot every single time, it will produce a lesser reaction than loot that is slightly random. The best comparison I can give is the Twin Glaives of Azzinoth vs the Dragonwrath. Both are legendary items from WoW but they have totally different ways of getting them. The Twin Glaives were a duo with legendary swords with a 5% drop rate from an end-game raid boss. The Dragonwrath is a legendary staff that is the reward from a quest chain requiring you to farm guaranteed drops from different raid bosses.

The thing is, because the Dragonwrath was a guaranteed reward to the point where guilds could plan out who got their staff and when, there was literally no real excitement to getting it. On the other hand, even to this day getting the Twin Glaives dropping is a huge deal and you can look up on youtube for various reactions to seeing that drop.

That is the power of RNG loot drops, and it does make a huge difference in a person's experience with the game.

Caelron

I get the difference and points well made.

I was more referring to the randomness (RNG) of the drops and how they don't make sense compared to a practical reason, like crafting reagents. I imagine killing a boss for the first time will be adventurous and exciting regardless of what drops - and even more exciting when it turns out you can use the thing that drop.

@karthos made the best point talking about purchasing the random (RNG) loot box vs. an in-game RNG drop.

As it turns out, I'm very against RNG loot tables. However, I'm not against a low percentage drop chance for rarity of drops.

Dygz

Ha. Especially, if the drops are fairly realistic instead of requiring suspension of disbelief that they’re the treasure of decayed prey... I’m OK with RNG loot.
Not as much of a fan when it feels like the loot tables were designed to be a farming time sink.

Child Item