Not showing the MMO

Hi Intrepid,

It was nice to see some new creatures and things which are in progress, however; We still do not see things from the MMO itself.

I understand that you have been burned and know the consequences of being transparent, but I think you have gone from one extreme (being too transparent) too another (Not showing any content at all).

More places I begin to see people which are doubtful of the entire MMO, that it will never happen and I also see people making memes about it, as a result of not seeing any progress in a year.

You argued at the latest livestream that you were not comfortable with showing stuff because it is subject to change or might get scrapped entirely. Yes this is something we are aware of as gamers, it happens all the time.

To me it feels like you do not trust your own product, and that is sad.

I hope you get back to being more transparent, and I think it would be healthy for the community.

Thanks for reading. Do you agree?

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Comments

Wandering Mist

@azathoth I totally get what you are saying, and yet I find myself thinking just how stupid some people are who demand the world when they are completely ignorant of what it takes to make a good game. And no, this doesn't apply just to Ashes, but a lot of different games. In fact, just recently Pokemon fans went berserk when they found out that the next Pokemon games (Sword and Shield) won't support all the Pokemon from previous generations. When you consider that there will be over 1000 individual Pokemon species to manage, it's really not surprising that the developers have decided to cut back a little.

But of course the ignorant masses don't understand just what it takes to implement and support so many different Pokemon, and get up in arms about it. Thankfully the head of the project put his foot down and is not pandering to the masses on this.

This is what annoys me about people. They immediately light the torches the moment things aren't as they expected, and are very quick to blame and complain without first doing the research to know what the hell they are complaining about.

I'm not saying players shouldn't complain about things in games, as the feedback is important. But please for the love of all things gaming do your research and think about things before you start complaining.

OrcLuck

I'm not concerned, but I'm also in deep, and I'm riding this out with knowledge of what its like. I just want to say that for the people who haven't done this before, being concerned isn't wrong. Its not a bad thing.

Its part n parcel with how this rodeo goes down.

Damokles

@elf on the flip side: players would call for their heads if they release the game without a cool gimmik that they once introduced in one of their streams.
8Like watchdogs with its grafics or Anthem with its "living world")

T Elf

One thing I've learned over my years of gaming....things change; might as well get use to it early.

Ravudha

Disagree.

I've never felt they don't trust their own product, quite the contrary.

I also want to see more stuff but just because they don't show it doesn't mean I jump to conclusions about that reflecting some deeper issue than their comfort level.

T Elf

There is no doubt in my mind that Intrepid trusts their own product; I'm just saying you have to be able to take some of the flax that comes with transparency; and that people who are interested in games, if they don't know already, should realize that there is an evolution in development as well as beyond launch.

aevari

Back in my day we just waited for the game to come out, without constant complaining. It's being worked on, we've seen that from dev diaries and live streams -- the proof is right in front of your eyes. People just need to grow up and be patient, things don't get completed by complaining about it, assets need to be created, systems tested, my god, do people not know how long a good MMO takes to be created and launched now a days?? WoW took like 5 bloody years!! Of course they aren't going to show everything, when you want it, they have a large stake in the game -- they want to show it at its best, Steven pretty much said it perfectly last stream, they aren't going to show things they aren't entirely happy with and aren't going to show them if they will do more harm than good to the community - and if you can't see the positive AND the negative in that, why are you even posting on here?

Stop being self entitled, we are getting way more snippets of the game development than many other games out there, how can you still find something to complain about?! seriously... it's being worked on and it will be great when it is polished to the level the devs are proud of showing.

Amist

aevari wrote: »

Back in my day we just waited for the game to come out, without constant complaining. It's being worked on, we've seen that from dev diaries and live streams -- the proof is right in front of your eyes. People just need to grow up and be patient, things don't get completed by complaining about it, assets need to be created, systems tested, my god, do people not know how long a good MMO takes to be created and launched now a days?? WoW took like 5 bloody years!! Of course they aren't going to show everything, when you want it, they have a large stake in the game -- they want to show it at its best, Steven pretty much said it perfectly last stream, they aren't going to show things they aren't entirely happy with and aren't going to show them if they will do more harm than good to the community - and if you can't see the positive AND the negative in that, why are you even posting on here?

Stop being self entitled, we are getting way more snippets of the game development than many other games out there, how can you still find something to complain about?! seriously... it's being worked on and it will be great when it is polished to the level the devs are proud of showing.

I think calling the OP entitled is going a little too far. Demanding? Perhaps, but wanting to see systems and aspects of the game showcased in the MMO setting is understandable as it is the reason why a lot of us are here.

Drewski

whitedude31 wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

Second, and probably most importantly, this game was crowdfunded on kickstarter. This means they had to announce the game a lot sooner than most other games would. We just had E3 a few weeks ago, and the majority of the games announced and showcased there are set for release early next year, so they are very near completion already. This means they have a lot more they can show that is guaranteed to be in the finished product. I reckon Ashes is still at least a full year, possibly two, from an actual release.

Just want to point out that only the extra stuff that we will most likely see after launch is funded by the kickstarter. The main game that we are waiting for was funded by Steven.

I'm pretty sure it was stated that it will all be there at launch assuming it was funded for. If it wasn't, they would've done it anyway, just after launch.

Kriddon

Yeah I believe Steven has a serious case of "Sean Murray syndrome" where you talk a lot about the game but then it turns out badly. So you end up saying basically nothing about the game for a few months until you have something to show that you're 100% confident in. The problems with that is Intrepid talked about an open development. And whatever we're getting certainly doesn't feel open. Remember when we used to get dungeon runs those were the days.

For instance for the longest time Intrepid thought they were going to release this year. And just because the network is having issues that doesn't mean other departments were having issues. So they must have more done than they have shown. So I think it's very possible they have more than three Boss characters done. And I believe we have only ever seen like three Boss characters. Wouldn't seeing something like a new boss character be pretty cool guys. Especially since that's something that would be in a MMO.

And if some of you say "Well maybe they just haven't done that yet. How could you know?"

I would say "Well I wish they would provide some kind of in depth update to what exactly they were doing instead of "back end issues" and "apoc things" most of the time like some other indie MMO.
https://camelotunchained.com/v3/category/news/

I could really go on about issues on transparency for like pages but I don't want to make this too long since I want people to actually read it.

P.S.

https://youtu.be/7icS_69Ub6Q
Sean Murray interview where he talks about the difficulties of no man's Sky launch and development. And why he will only talk about games when they're done and not in development.
Which is what I'm sure Steven is doing now.

Now before any of you get mad. You should know I really want this game to do well. I'm really excited for it. That's why I'm still here even though they haven't showed MMO footage in 6 months. I just think we should call out issues as we see them. And I think they're lack of communication is a huge issue. Especially for new people like I'm glad it's finally there but it took like four months to put a notice next to the download button of the Battle Royale that you can't play it. People were buying beta because they thought they needed that to play the BR. And that's really sad to hear.

Kriddon

At times like this I wonder why was development open at all. And what did "open" really mean. Like me and Steven may have very different definitions of open (and that's okay). If anyone has like a Discord statement or stream link where he talks of what he means by open development I would like to see it please. So I know what to expect.

Hjerim

@aevari I totally get what you mean.
It is my very own personal opinion that perhaps more people share, that is the point of a discussion; to find out if the community agrees, disagress or feel mixed about.

Anyway, games like WoW was not kickstarted, this is again my very own opinion, but having supported Intrepid and contributing to the game and the possibility of it being created, makes me feel that I should be able to voice my opinion on what I feel. They have been very transparent, now they aren't. In my opinion I would love if we could find a middle ground. I am by no means demanding.

Amist

hjerim wrote: »

@aevari I totally get what you mean.
It is my very own personal opinion that perhaps more people share, that is the point of a discussion; to find out if the community agrees, disagress or feel mixed about.

Anyway, games like WoW was not kickstarted, this is again my very own opinion, but having supported Intrepid and contributing to the game and the possibility of it being created, makes me feel that I should be able to voice my opinion on what I feel. They have been very transparent, now they aren't. In my opinion I would love if we could find a middle ground. I am by no means demanding.

Whereas I don't agree with everything stated in your initial post, I very much agree with this sentiment. It is only normal for a consumer to be curious about where their money is going. I too have been wondering why the team didn't use the arena maps that they had already created in conjunction with the A0 map to create a more MMO centered APOC experience with the ability to test the action combat, server stability, as well as some of the core MMO aspects.

Karthos

I know I'm in a very small minority here and expect more of you to disagree with what I'm about to say, than agreed. But...

I don't care as long as I get a decent game.

I'm content with what they do show us, because they honestly don't have to show us anything. Most games are simply showing you concept art until just prior to Beta.

The fact they do engage with us at the level they do, shows me they do prioritize their player base. I really don't need a daily, weekly or even monthly update.

But they are nice.

I guess as I get older, waiting has become easier. I don't need the fleeting instant gratification. Because I know, in the big picture, demanding they share more videos/pictures with us isn't going to make the game come out quicker. I find other ways to pass the time.

I'm frankly more amused watching at how many people exhibit behavior akin to addicts, trying to get a quick fix, which satisfies them for an even shorter time each fix only to demand more.

Some people need to chill out.

aevari

branegames wrote: »

aevari wrote: »

Back in my day we just waited for the game to come out, without constant complaining. It's being worked on, we've seen that from dev diaries and live streams -- the proof is right in front of your eyes. People just need to grow up and be patient, things don't get completed by complaining about it, assets need to be created, systems tested, my god, do people not know how long a good MMO takes to be created and launched now a days?? WoW took like 5 bloody years!! Of course they aren't going to show everything, when you want it, they have a large stake in the game -- they want to show it at its best, Steven pretty much said it perfectly last stream, they aren't going to show things they aren't entirely happy with and aren't going to show them if they will do more harm than good to the community - and if you can't see the positive AND the negative in that, why are you even posting on here?

Stop being self entitled, we are getting way more snippets of the game development than many other games out there, how can you still find something to complain about?! seriously... it's being worked on and it will be great when it is polished to the level the devs are proud of showing.

I think calling the OP entitled is going a little too far. Demanding? Perhaps, but wanting to see systems and aspects of the game showcased in the MMO setting is understandable as it is the reason why a lot of us are here.

It's a point of view that does not justify the demands of wanting to see. We are all here for the game, yes, but demanding and thinking we are entitled to see more is on a whole different level. As many have already stated, the game was already funded before Kickstarter even came into play. The Kickstarter was for extras not the game itself. Just because you chipped in a bit of money for an already funded project does not mean you should see (great) but potentially damaging components of the game. By damaging I mean by other companies cashing in on what Intrepid is creating. Why would you want to jeopardize all Ashes COULD be just because 'you want to see more' so you should see more?? Why risk it? I'd rather see the game launch Successfully without hindrance rather than below sub par because of the communities greed.

aevari

hjerim wrote: »

@aevari I totally get what you mean.
It is my very own personal opinion that perhaps more people share, that is the point of a discussion; to find out if the community agrees, disagress or feel mixed about.

Anyway, games like WoW was not kickstarted, this is again my very own opinion, but having supported Intrepid and contributing to the game and the possibility of it being created, makes me feel that I should be able to voice my opinion on what I feel. They have been very transparent, now they aren't. In my opinion I would love if we could find a middle ground. I am by no means demanding.

Ashes was already fully funded before kickstarter came into play like many have said before. You contributed for extras not the entire game. You shouldn't expect to see major game defining aspects of it for that. As I said in another post, Intrepid showing extra could damage it, all for a 'fans temporary and impatient greed'

At the end of the day, patience is a virtue, and that's what everyone needs to have. If they don't have it, they should step away from Ashes and return on launch for some semblance of peace of mind (even though intrepid are showing things which should bring about peace of mind anyway.... but no, it's not enough.)

I don't know what else to say, they are showing what they can without bringing detriment to the project, they are showing things monthly to us when they by all means don't have to, they could take the route of other MMO and game developers but they haven't. When is it ever going to be enough???

I want the game to succeed and have a great launch, not be hindered by fans wanting to see more than we have to.

aevari

karthos wrote: »

I know I'm in a very small minority here and expect more of you to disagree with what I'm about to say, then agreed. But...

I don't care as long as I get a decent game.

I'm content with what they do show us, because they honestly don't have to show us anything. Most games are simply showing you concept art until just prior to Beta.

The fact they do engage with us at the level they do, shows me they do prioritize their player base. I really don't need a daily, weekly or even monthly update.

But they are nice.

I guess as I get older, waiting has become easier. I don't need the fleeting instant gratification. Because I know, in the big picture, demanding they share more videos/pictures with us isn't going to make the game come out quicker. I find other ways to pass the time.

I'm frankly more amused watching at how many people exhibit behavior akin to addicts, trying to get a quick fix, which satisfies them for an even shorter time each fix only to demand more.

Some people need to chill out.

You sir, just get it.

Vanqor

I think a lot of people make the assumption that an MMO developer is continuosly updating and maintaining a playable version of the game client itself. This is probably not true.

I do not claim any game development experience, but I have a lot of experience in large development projects. When doing agile development, in particular, the focus is to attack high risk parts of the system as early as possible, to learn and reduce risks later on. Related to this, every development project goes through different phases, where various parts of a system is focussed on.

What we do know from the last two streams is that they are focussing on:
- network code and infrastructure. A significant part of the engineers are probably working on this.
- castle siege. Destructible terrain/objects in particular is something they have talked about for a few
months, so this seems to be a complex feature they are spending a lot of time on, both on engineering and
art
- skills and combat. They are obviously pouring a lot of time into getting combat right, creating new abilities,
animations, even changing core systems.
- assets, and optimization of these. Some of these we see in APOC, but mostly I assume they're making a
large library of assets that later will be needed in the MMO client.
- tools. As seen in dev diaries. Significant time is spent on tools and processes to produce an efficient
pipeline, so that they later can be much more productive.

An important part of agile development, though, is continous integration. I.e. integrating different parts into something usable/playable. Both for testing purposes and to avoid the nightmare of integrating everything in the end. For Ashes, this playable test bed is APOC. All of the above core systems are tested extensively through the APOC client, much better than it would have been in the MMO client.

It does not make sense for Intrepid to be "building the MMO" (client) now. They are, however, developing core components, doing prototyping and exploratory development, building tools and defining processes. Then testing these out in APOC. When satisified with how things work in APOC, and only then, will feature at some point be integrated into the MMO client.

What everyone need to realize is that "99%" of the stuff you see in APOC are features that are essential to the MMO. Instead of thinking of APOC as "another game", try to think of it as a crucial slice of the MMO.

In addition, a lot of the work they're doing now is setting up for a better production pipeline so they can go into "production mode" after the core systems are in place.

Also, remember they have grown substantially the last year. Hiring people takes time. Integrating new people into the project takes time from those already there. A company of 100-200 people has to be organized very different than 10-20 people, so they have probably been going through big organizational changes the last year.

The MMO client will be the focus after APOC, in preparation for Alpha 1.

TLDR; the focus for Intrepid now is developing a set of core systems and performing optimizations for the MMO, which are tested in APOC. Once they are happy with the performance and quality of these systems, I believe they will start integrating them into the MMO client and prepare for Alpha 1. Not having a playable MMO client now has nothing to do with them not being able to, but rather that the focus is on other things.

Dygz

What Steven means by "open development" has changed over time - and is typically tainted by hype.

One of the things "open development" has never meant is that we will get to see the MMORPG map as soon as possible or we will get a skills list for all the primary archetypes as soon as possible or we will get a list of all the crafting professions as soon as possible.
One of the reasons we have the APOC map is because Steven wants players to feel a sense of discovery and wonderment when we play the game rather than spoiling that info beforehand.

One of the things "open development" has meant is that we got to see pre-alpha gameplay and mechanics earlier in the development process than is typical for most MMORPGs. And there was pre-alpha testing available for fans earlier in the development process than is typical.
We had a chance to test the tab-target mechanics before they even created action abilities and we got to test a sample of action abilities soon after those abilities were created.
We were able to play in a setting that has examples of the environments and buildings that will be in the MMORPG. And we're able to experience a sample of the history the MMORPG lore is based on - earlier than we would in other MMORPGs.

Players tend not to understand that game dev schedules are rife with delays. Steven didn't even fully appreciate that prior to this year because this is his first stint at being a game dev. So, prior to this year, Steven was tossing out dates without much care for how players will react when those dates are missed. Now that he's experienced not be able to meet the expectation he set in December for access to APOC and now that Maggie is onboard to help him release more reliable dates and info, there is less transparency. Because it's better not to give a date than it is to miss the date.
And info is subject to change over the course of development.
One of the complaints we hear a lot from players is, "But he PROMISED!!!" Even when Steven was just sharing tentative info. So, of course, the devs are going to be more reluctant to share info that people can misconstrue as a PROMISE.

Even now... last week we were shown character models and animations that will be used in the MMORPG, we were shown concept art for buildings that will be used in the MMORPG, we were shown models and animations for mounts and mobs that will be used in the MMORPG... and we have a thread started that states, "We still have seen nothing from the MMO itself."
A major complaint has been that we haven't been shown 3D models for the KS cosmetics - they show us some 3D models and we still have a response of, "Nice, but still nothing from the MMO..."
Somehow that is perceived as "Not showing any content at all."

We've had 6 months of mostly silence while they work on getting APOC better shape to be played 24/7.
Which is great - I would rather they show than tell. And if they showed too much while we can't play, people would be even more upset that we have to wait to play.

Steven is discovering the reasons why game devs typically aren't very transparent: players tend not to appreciate the transparency.

BlackBrony

Steven was not a game developer, nor he ever directed a project like this. So imagine a Level 1 Steven, CEO founding IS, having no idea how Game Development works, but having huge ideas and a big dream, his own MMO, made at his own image.
Now, IS starts hiring the best it can find. Art leads, engineer leads and so on. Eventually they get a Marketing leads.
When the project got larger, new restrictions are put in place. If they have proprietary network systems/code, they can't share it, or how it works, because well, it might expose them to attacks.
Also, if you have an experienced Marketing lead telling you to share only what's necessary or just certain bits of information, why would you ignore her advice?

All I'm saying is that Steven might have an idea on what "transparency" meant, but when it was full hands on the project, perspective and ideas on how to make it successful change.
I'd rather have no info at all and get a decent product at lunch, than having lots of info and the game sucks.

Let's be honest then. If you don't get any info that means you won't play at lunch? I really doubt that.

So, as long as we get updates on HOW things will be played/done, I guess that is good enough. What matters is that the system in place work.
Honestly, if the waves on the ocean look horrible, I couldn't care less, as long as the game is fun, and the Node/Guild/Wars system work.

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