DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

wanderingmist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

azathoth wrote: »

It is these absolute statements that indicate players without DPS/ACT meters don't know how to build/play a character proper that make me happy IS is on the fence about having one

Without a tracker, you don't know.

Without a tracker, you think.

Without a tracker, you guess.

Hell, without a tracker, you don't even know if the tooltips on abilities are accurate, in which case you can't even think or guess.

True, but do you need to know? Do you need to see every formula, every line of code to enjoy the game?

Yes.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

So you are left with either one of two situations; some people knowing how valuable a player, a character, a class or a build is because they used a combat tracker and took other things in to account, while others think they know because they used a meter but don't because they are not smart enough - or you have a situation where no one knows a damn thing because no one has a combat tracker.

Most likely, we will have the third option of most people knowing how valuable a player, a character a class or a build is because we can gauge that due to character and class designs without the need of combat trackers.

Dygz

ghoosty wrote: »

If I am a mage, but the raid leader only let in warlock to the group, because according to the common acceptance is that the warlock does the best DPS, yes, I have to know the 'formula' to enjoy the game.

Without a DPS meter, the raid leader shouldn't be able to determine whether Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS. All of the sub-classes of Mage should be equally desirable in a raid.
Whether an Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS should depend on the individual player and the individual character build, including class, racial and religious augments, in addition to potions and gear and weapon abilities.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

azathoth wrote: »

It is these absolute statements that indicate players without DPS/ACT meters don't know how to build/play a character proper that make me happy IS is on the fence about having one

Without a tracker, you don't know.

Without a tracker, you think.

Without a tracker, you guess.

Hell, without a tracker, you don't even know if the tooltips on abilities are accurate, in which case you can't even think or guess.

We don't need combat trackers to know.
There are a variety of ways to determine which abilities do more damage or more healing or CC longer without relying on combat trackers. We don't necessarily need to know who does the most damage as an absolute - we just need to know that the damage we do or the healing we do is effective enough to beat the challenge(s).
Since combat trackers will change dynamically between sessions, it's all going to be guess work in any case.

Azryil

dygz wrote: »

ghoosty wrote: »

If I am a mage, but the raid leader only let in warlock to the group, because according to the common acceptance is that the warlock does the best DPS, yes, I have to know the 'formula' to enjoy the game.

Without a DPS meter, the raid leader shouldn't be able to determine whether Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS. All of the sub-classes of Mage should be equally desirable in a raid.
Whether an Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS should depend on the individual player and the individual character build, including class, racial and religious augments, in addition to potions and gear and weapon abilities.

That's an idealistic view at best. Game communities are very good at determining what builds work and which builds don't. There is very little chance that every possible build will be balanced, there will always be outliers on both ends of the spectrum. Theory crafters will find these outliers and create guides and overviews for the class. The outliers on the high end of the spectrum will become metas, and without some in game way of verifying or proving that other build provide enough benefit to be worth bringing along they may be left out. As with many points in this thread this likely won't effect the highest raiding guilds since they tend to attract people that do their own theory crafting and could justify the effects of a hybrid build that brings additional utility. This would mostly effect medium tier raiding guilds and pugs that rely on the theory crafting of others to determine how to play the game and how to build their class.

Dygz

I didn't say all builds should be equally desirable. I said all of a primary archetype's subclasses should be equally desirable. That's the whole point of having a primary archetype.

Azathoth

Idk, I am still in the camp that does not care rather or not IS adds a tracker. Luckily, I don't require one to build awesome characters and I hopefully I won't ever need to play with anyone that needs to know my build.

However, I do feel like the reasons people really want them (and the reasons people don't) fall completely into the realm of paranoia and the desire to be accepted by the community.

Dygz

Regardless...
We will have to wait for launch and see what happens.

Noaani

dygz wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

So you are left with either one of two situations; some people knowing how valuable a player, a character, a class or a build is because they used a combat tracker and took other things in to account, while others think they know because they used a meter but don't because they are not smart enough - or you have a situation where no one knows a damn thing because no one has a combat tracker.

Most likely, we will have the third option of most people knowing how valuable a player, a character a class or a build is because we can gauge that due to character and class designs without the need of combat trackers.

It is not possible to gauge how good player number 26 in a raid of 40 is without a combat tracker.

If you think it is, you clearly don't know what you are saying.

You can gauge how good the raid over all is by whether the raid is dying or the content is dying, but the idea is to deal with issues before they cause raid wipes.

Dygz

It is possible. You think it’s not because you rely on the combat trackers too much.
You act like raids can’t be completed without combat trackers.

Wipes happen. That’s part of the game. If you wipe too often without combat trackers maybe you aren’t as top end as you think. You have to cheat to win.

Noaani

dygz wrote: »

It is possible.

Isolating one player in 40?

Explain to me how this is possible.

Dygz

There’s no reason to isolate one player. Especially in an open world raid.
Wanting to isolate one player is the entire problem.
But, people playing near each other can evaluate how well they are syncing their abilities.
I don’t need a combat tracker to tell me that adds near me aren’t being cc’d well enough or that I’m not getting enough heals.
In games where we expect healers to heal instead dps, we can tell when a specific healer is focusing too much on dps without a combat tracker.

Noaani

dygz wrote: »

There’s no reason to isolate one player.

You don't need a reason why.

I said it is not possible.
You said it is possible.
Explain to me how it is possible.

Ghoosty

dygz wrote: »

ghoosty wrote: »

If I am a mage, but the raid leader only let in warlock to the group, because according to the common acceptance is that the warlock does the best DPS, yes, I have to know the 'formula' to enjoy the game.

Without a DPS meter, the raid leader shouldn't be able to determine whether Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS. All of the sub-classes of Mage should be equally desirable in a raid.
Whether an Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS should depend on the individual player and the individual character build, including class, racial and religious augments, in addition to potions and gear and weapon abilities.

The raid-leader do not know that but the 'common opinion' says that the Warlock is the best DPS. So you can't join to the raid with your mage. This is not just my fear, exactly that happened in GW2 while there were not DPS meter (class names are different). After they introduced the DPS meter the players was able to prove that the mage can have same DPS as the warlock so after that you were let in the raid with your mage.

Nagash

this has been one hell of a read

Dygz

Some people focus too much on the raid leader.
As if generals are incapable of assessing the performances of individuals in an army without digital combat trackers. Humans have centuries of assessing the combat of individuals within a battalion without the need of combat trackers.
That's why armies have lieutenants and sergeants and corporals... and squad leaders.

noaani wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

There’s no reason to isolate one player.

You don't need a reason why.

I said it is not possible.
You said it is possible.
Explain to me how it is possible.

I don't recall saying it is possible to isolate one player. I said it is possible to gauge the performance of an individual player without digital DPS meters and combat trackers.
You don't isolate "Player Number 26", rather you evaluate how well each primary archetype in a squad is doing. And you rely on the input of the squad leaders and squadmates to help determine how to improve individual performance(s) within each squad.

Before assuming what raid leaders can't assess without DPS meters, people should probably wait to see what tools the devs will implement for raid leaders and party/squad leaders. We know there is at least one tool in the Ashes design to help raid leaders and party leaders direct battle in the heat of combat.

https://ashespost.com/6-28-19-livestream-transcript/
Q: Who will command troops during a node siege/war. If anyone can, will a raid leading comms be available to all citizens?
A: There are administrative functions that will be available, including VOIP functions and raid delegation, including on screen commands and target designation.

Dygz

ghoosty wrote: »

The raid-leader do not know that but the 'common opinion' says that the Warlock is the best DPS. So you can't join to the raid with your mage. This is not just my fear, exactly that happened in GW2 while there were not DPS meter (class names are different). After they introduced the DPS meter the players was able to prove that the mage can have same DPS as the warlock so after that you were let in the raid with your mage.

Ashes of Creation is not GW2.
Which why people are so keen to play Ashes of Creation, rather than GW2.

Noaani

dygz wrote: »

Some people focus too much on the raid leader.
As if generals are incapable of assessing the performances of individuals in an army without digital combat trackers. Humans have centuries of assessing the combat of individuals within a battalion without the need of combat trackers.
That's why armies have lieutenants and sergeants and corporals... and squad leaders.

Generals in armies have decades of training and experience in this.

I don't, nor do I expect the average leader to require decades of training to be effective at assessing their raid.

This is one of the most unreasonable things you've said in this thread.

noaani wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

There’s no reason to isolate one player.

You don't need a reason why.

I said it is not possible.
You said it is possible.
Explain to me how it is possible.

I don't recall saying it is possible to isolate one player. I said it is possible to gauge the performance of an individual player without digital DPS meters and combat trackers.
You don't isolate "Player Number 26", rather you evaluate how well each primary archetype in a squad is doing. And you rely on the input of the squad leaders and squadmates to help determine how to improve individual performance(s) within each squad.

It is not possible to evaluate an individual without isolating the output of the individual (this time, it is something I DO have decades of experience in).

This goes for anything. Sport. Manufacturing. Accounting. Research. Sales. Education.

All you are ever able to assess is what is able to be isolated. If all you are able to isolate is a group of three people, you are unable to access anything other than that group of three people as a single unit. If something is going wrong - or more importantly if something is going exceedingly well - if you are unable to isolate things beyond that group of three, you are unable to fix things if they are going wrong - or duplicate things if they are going right - without making all alterations to units of three.

Therefor, if you are able to gauge the performance of an individual among a raid of 40, you must be able to isolate that individuals output. If all you are able to do is say that the 8 healers in the rid didn't manage to keep the raid alive, you have no way of finding out why, or trying to fix the issue other than in dealing with all 8 healers . this gets even harder with the DPS, because while a raid of 40 would likely have about 24 DPS, it will also have around 6 utility characters that all contribute to DPS as well. So suddenly, if you have a raid of 24 DPS and 6 utility buffing them and things aren't going right, you have no unit smaller than that 30 people in which to make adjustments.

Even worse, should things go right one day, you have no way of knowing why, and so no way of duplicating the effects.

Add in a combat tracker, and not only can you find out what player caused things to either go right or wrong, but you can look at the individual abilities used to see EXACTLY what it was that went right or wrong. You can fix things that went wrong on an individual spell level, rather than the individual player level, or the contingent of 30 DPS/utility in the raid.

If things go right, you can see EXACTLY why they went right, down to the individual spell casts. You can then duplicate that result in the future for the benefit of all.

---

Even in your post above where you claim to have answered the question, you haven't. You say that you can evaluate how each archetype in a "squad" (wtf is a "squad" in an MMORPG?) is doing, but you fail to say HOW you make that evaluation. How do you evaluate the output of your mages vs your rogues? With these archetypes, the main thing you will want to know is how much damage they have dealt - how do you know what damage your mages are inflicting vs what damage your rogues are inflicting? Further, assuming you somehow come to the conclusion that the mages are not doing as much damage as they should, how do you then figure out if that is because the mages are not performing as they should, or the bards and summoners buffing them are not buffing the mages as they should?

You then also say that you rely on input from "squad leaders and squadmates" to help determine how to improve individual performance, yet you fail to state how. Not only that, you fail to state how you establish a baseline for what the performance is now, and later on how much - if any - improvement has been made.

Basically, you have failed to demonstrate that you are able to assess any portion of a raid other than the whole raid, and you have also failed to demonstrate how you could possibly know whether any change you may make or suggest to another player in your "squad" is even a positive change.

This is exactly why people will have a combat tracker - Intrepids desires be damned. You say AoC is not GW2, but you say it in a way where you think people shouldn't learn from mistakes in history.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

It is not possible to evaluate an individual without isolating the output of the individual (this time, it is something I DO have decades of experience in).
This goes for anything. Sport. Manufacturing. Accounting. Research. Sales. Education.

It is possible to evaluate an individual without isolating the digital output of the individual.
Again, humans have been doing this for millennia.

noaani wrote: »

All you are ever able to assess is what is able to be isolated.

You don't have to isolate, you just have to pay attention. I don't need to isolate a healer to see that they are spending more time dealing damage when I expect them to be healing. I don't need to isolate a squadmate to realize that they aren't buffing or synching their abilities to mine as expected. I don't need to isolate a cc character to notice that adds aren't being adequately cc'd.
I definitely don't need DPS and combat tracker tools to feed me that info. If you do, it's because you've used those tools as a crutch way too often.
And, since the Ashes devs aren't supporting such tools, we know that Ashes content will be designed to be defeated without need those tools.
---

noaani wrote: »

Even in your post above where you claim to have answered the question, you haven't. You say that you can evaluate how each archetype in a "squad" (wtf is a "squad" in an MMORPG?)...

If your reading comprehension is that poor, I can't help you.

Noaani

dygz wrote: »

You don't have to isolate, you just have to pay attention. I don't need to isolate a healer to see that they are spending more time dealing damage when I expect them to be healing. I don't need to isolate a squadmate to realize that they aren't buffing or synching their abilities to mine as expected. I don't need to isolate a cc character to notice that adds aren't being adequately cc'd.
I definitely don't need DPS and combat tracker tools to feed me that info. If you do, it's because you've used those tools as a crutch way too often.
And, since the Ashes devs aren't supporting such tools, we know that Ashes content will be designed to be defeated without need those tools.

Again with no answer.

Lets assume you are have the time in a raid to pay attention to others rather than focusing on what you are doing (you don't, but we are ignoring that).

You can't just judge what a person is doing by what spell motions and particle effects their character character is triggering. With 64 character classes, a minimum of 20 spells each and a likely minimum of 5 augments for each spell, that is 6,400 spell/augment combinations that the game will have.

Now, lets maintain the assumption that you are going to watch your raid, and are still able to perform. Working on an average of 1 spell every 2 seconds (some classes will be twice as high as this), and an average raid encounter of 15 minutes for boss, that means you are watching 18,000 spells and abilities be used, and are then mentally comparing them to the above list of 6,400 possible spell/augment combinations in order to figure out what spells and abilities your raid are using, and when they are using them.

No.

Not happening.

This would be possible in a small group of 4, but not in a raid of 40. May be that is what you are thinking of, as it is obvious you have no actual raid experience.

You may well be able to spot the occasional thing that is well out of place, but in a raid of 40 people, you are not able to discern enough accurate information on a single player to get an accurate picture of their performance, let alone get such a picture of all 40.

And that is all assuming you have a detailed understanding of the nuances of every build of every class in your raid - which is unreasonable to expect of anyone. If you don't have that understanding of the nuances of every class, you can't judge whether casting a specific ability at a specific time was the right or wrong thing to do, even if you could determine what spell was being cast and when, which you can't do.

With a combat tracker though, you are simply looking at actual output, without needing to know the nuances of how that output was achieved. You don't need to know if a given spell was the right or wrong one to cast at that point in time, nor do you need to identify that one spell among the 6,399 over spells in the game.

Lets go up one step from there though. Lets look at those adds that aren't being CC'd. Is it that they were CC'd and someone accidentally cast an an AoE and broke the CC without noticing? Maybe someone has an item with a damage proc that they didn't notice could attack enemies other than the target. Maybe the CC player cast their CC but the mob resisted. Do you have a stealthed enemy that is breaking the CC on those adds to wipe your raid? If he's good, he'll be able to do that without even getting in line of sight of anyone in your raid so there is no way you would be able to see him.

All you have been able to see is that the adds are not CC'd. There at least 30 people that could be to blame for that - and it may well be that the person to blame doesn't even know they did anything wrong, or that a person is doing something wrong on purpose (either from inside or outside your raid), and is being subtle enough that no one else can see.

And all you have to rely in is what you think you saw.

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