Motivate Me - Taverns

Awesome, we're getting Taverns! Great... so uh... what's the motive?

Now don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Taverns having the opportunity to settle down somewhere in the world of Verra and I also get the RP influence that comes along with it, but, I am struggling to find the motive to want to keep coming back to "The whatever Inn" other than that reason. What I see happening is that players will completely overrun the Tavern after it's doors open (for the first time) for a couple of days, to then eventually it becoming dead silent in there. I personally believe players should be given a better reason to come and visit "The whatever Inn" somewhat regularly other than for the purpose of Role Play because let's be honest, the majority of us would only spend like less than 5% of our overall time Role Playing at all so, the question is, what can be done to enforce this idea?

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Azathoth

I don't know, it seems historically and in some cases even modern that people meet and socialize at places that serve liquor. Sure, there are other places, but those are usually not as much fun or they serve liquor in smaller quantities. Edit: Or they are associated with very specific organizations, where Taverns are more a 'come one, come all' type of location.

Taverns make the most sense to me for socializing hubs. I know @dygz is an avid D&D player from several of his posts. I think it's odd he is unable to understand why Taverns would be the naturally chosen location to try and center a socializing player base.

Again, there are likely other options that will exists, but it makes sense to me that Taverns would be the most common (used).

Dygz

I didn't question taverns being a place that characters socialize. I questioned taverns being a place where players go to RP. In D&D we RP constantly everywhere, we don't only RP in taverns or mostly RP in taverns.
Same thing when I RP in MMORPGs. Taverns are not the primary place where I RP.

In D&D, player characters typically do not own homes and typically do not have NPC friends who we know well enough to allow us to crash for the night for free. D&D adventures are designed to have player characters getting rid of their gold by purchasing a safe place to sleep within a town, where it's also going to be safer for the party to sleep. So, players will frequently congregate with NPCs in taverns - which are also typically the best place to gather info, since people in places like temples and thieves guilds are rarely going to share info with strangers.
In Vampire, The Masquerade (a dream come true that I worked on those games when I worked at Activision), we didn't spend much time at all in bars or taverns.

Especially in MMORPGs that have player housing, I don't spend much time at all socializing in taverns.
A lot of the socializing would happen at parties held at player character homes, which include costume contests and house decorating contests, etc. We would create flash mobs anywhere; not just at taverns.
Especially in an MMORPG where players can be queens and mayors, I would hope to see lavish balls an parties being held in castles and mansions; not just at taverns.
Where we have players building temples and thieves guilds and scholars academies, I would hope there is a considerable amount of RP happening in those locations; not just in taverns.
I plan on playing a Predator Vek in a Scientific Node. I hope there is more dev-designed, in-game incentive to RP that character in observatories and temples and thieves guilds than there is in a tavern.
Especially, where we have animal husbandry with breeding, I would hope plenty of RP is going on around how to breed desirable pets and mounts at breeders' freeholds - not just at tavern freeholds.
I am constantly RPing in dungeons and on raids - RP does not just kick in when I enter a tavern.

I'm expecting a ton of in-character current events exchange between players, since we won't all be experiencing the exact same content day after day and week after week - we will miss stuff that happens while we are off-line, whether that's info about which Castle vassal nodes where defeated that week or which new Nodes have appeared or which established Nodes have advanced or atrophied or which resources have been depleted from a region or which resources or mobs have newly popped up in the region. We shouldn't need to wait to enter a tavern to discuss that info with other players. I expect those discussions to occur everywhere.

But, whenever RPers have asked Steven about tools to facilitate RPing, Steven answers there will be tools for that in taverns. And I don't understand what that means. It sounds to me like, "Oh, if you want to participate in dice rolling games, RPG will be one of the dice-rolling games available in taverns."

I understand why players might want to socialize in taverns. I don't understand why taverns are supposed to be a special focus for roleplaying in a roleplaying game. As opposed to just roleplaying everywhere.
For instance, if I were going to consider a wedding a special RP event that I don't want interrupted by players who aren't into player events and staying in-character rather than talking about IRL stuff - I would have the wedding at a freehold and only invite the specific people I know will stay in character and act as intended.
Tavern would probably be among one of the last places I would try to stage a wedding.

Azathoth

This statement "I don't even understand the concept of RP taverns or why taverns are supposed to be a gathering place for RPers." Is quite a bit different from this one "I understand why players might want to socialize in taverns. I don't understand why taverns are supposed to be a special focus for roleplaying in a roleplaying game. As opposed to just roleplaying everywhere." - So I think that is what prompted people to question your original statement. As most responses were defending RP in taverns and none of them indicated RP wouldn't happen elsewhere.

I see your point now. I agree in an MMORPG that RP should be facilitated everywhere. A lot of the things you talk about in the second post is Player Driven, and although Ashes would have to facilitate the ability to do that, they can't force those things to happen.

So to me it sounds like they will focus on helping RP by facilitating it in a Tavern. The types of interactions for RP can be better guessed (not known, but guessed) in a Tavern. They may or may not have 'things' to facilitate and encourage RP elsewhere, but their focus in Ashes is Taverns as in their game-world they would like lots of opportunities for players to RP there.

There will likely *hopefully* be a variety of events that encourage RP in other locations like you mention: guilds, temples, markets, etc. But that doesn't mean they can't focus their efforts on Taverns.

unknownsystemerror

@dygz "For instance, if I were going to consider a wedding a special RP event that I don't want interrupted by players who aren't into player events and staying in-character rather than talking about IRL stuff - I would have the wedding at a freehold and only invite the specific people I know will stay in character and act as intended.
Tavern would probably be among one of the last places I would try to stage a wedding."

Actually since taverns will be on freeholds, they might be the best place to have them. If we get the access controls that have been talked about, you could turn your settings to friends list only and limit the guests that way. Because as we had clarified in one of my livestream questions, there will be no special instancing for weddings or other events planned. So Red Weddings are going to be the norm for those that server announce their special day and don't take precautions to limit access.

Dygz

It's not different. I didn't write, "I don't understand why players would want to gather in taverns" or "I don't understand why players would want to socialize in a tavern."
What I did write emphasized that I don't understand why tavern are supposed to be a special draw for "RPers" specifically.
It's fine if my first post wasn't clearly understood - that's what discussions are for.

When RPers ask Steven and Jeffrey about support for RPers, they typically answer with tools and support via taverns. That's what I don't understand.
And the OP states, "I personally believe players should be given a better reason to come and visit "The whatever Inn" somewhat regularly other than for the purpose of Role Play because let's be honest, the majority of us would only spend like less than 5% of our overall time Role Playing at all so, the question is, what can be done to enforce this idea?"
I'm similarly confused by that concept of RP and why the focus seems to be taverns.
Again, as if RP wouldn't be happening elsewhere or as if a tavern is the primary place where RP occurs in MMORPGs.

And if it's the case that the devs may not have tools to support RPing outside of taverns but will have tools to support RPing inside of taverns - I would want to know why that is because I don't understand why that would be the case.

T Elf

I think there was mention of taverns that were city built also.

unknownsystemerror

Yep, there will be npc ones once a node hits a certain level inside the walls, but everything outside is player freehold/built unless they changed something and I missed it.

Dygz

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

Actually since taverns will be on freeholds, they might be the best place to have them. If we get the access controls that have been talked about, you could turn your settings to friends list only and limit the guests that way. Because as we had clarified in one of my livestream questions, there will be no special instancing for weddings or other events planned. So Red Weddings are going to be the norm for those that server announce their special day and don't take precautions to limit access.

True. But, then, it should be that there will be tools for RP in freeholds in general, rather than tools for RP in freehold taverns specifically.
wanderingmist makes a distinction between NPC-run taverns and player-run taverns, so... I guess was thinking that NPC-run taverns, specifically would be the last place I'd hold a wedding if I wanted to avoid interruptions by unwanted visitors. Also, I would probably choose a different style of freehold besides a tavern - like a cathedral or even an arena.
And, yeah, I was thinking of the guest/invite mechanics of a freehold rather than instancing.

WizardTim

wanderingmist wrote: »

wolfwood82 wrote: »

TheNobleOne wrote: »

Awesome, we're getting Taverns! Great... so uh... what's the motive?

Now don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Taverns having the opportunity to settle down somewhere in the world of Verra and I also get the RP influence that comes along with it, but, I am struggling to find the motive to want to keep coming back to "The whatever Inn" other than that reason. What I see happening is that players will completely overrun the Tavern after it's doors open (for the first time) for a couple of days, to then eventually it becoming dead silent in there. I personally believe players should be given a better reason to come and visit "The whatever Inn" somewhat regularly other than for the purpose of Role Play because let's be honest, the majority of us would only spend like less than 5% of our overall time Role Playing at all so, the question is, what can be done to enforce this idea?

Most roleplayers don't care about you or your attendance. They visit the tavern because they want to.

In fact, I foresee this particular request as something RPers would NOT want, as it floods their favorite gathering points with idiots just looking to min/max their game time rather than, yanno, play the role playing game.

I'm not a particularly heavy RPer, but even I can see that this is just an attempt to get something for nothing out of the game... The RP community likely won't see advantageous benefits for spending MORE time in the tavern than random players seeking out some stupid boosts, but will still have to put up with said randoms running in and potentially ruining their experience by running circles around RPers or jumping wildly on the counters or typing random nonsense.

The less time people spend in taverns, the more time people will spend in taverns.

It seems to be something planned regardless of whether the RPers want it or not, but I can see your concern. It will be interesting to see which players prefer the NPC run taverns in the nodes, as opposed to the player-run taverns in the freeholds. I anticipate there will probably be a divide between the "RP taverns" and those used by non-RPers.

Players tend to go to taverns that are easily accessible at earlier levels. First large tavern they find, they'll sit and chat for hours. Personally, I prefer doing my RPing in the field fighting monsters. It's one thing I loved about City of Heroes was just the heroic banter with random PUG groups while mindlessly charging through bad guys. I have a super hard time just sitting and talking without keeping myself productive in some way/shape/or form.

AoC is going to be an incredibly different scenario though, since Nodes come and go, as do Taverns, they'll likely hang out at popular freehold taverns that are regularly "run" by players. Many players enjoy being the barkeep.

As for what's planned, I'm fine with the concept of postings in the tavern. That actually makes sense, and shouldn't interfere with RPers much since most players will be in and out and easily add to immersion just by doing their quests.

What I'd be more against are things like going to a tavern to obtain some kind of buff or add incentive for players to go be bored for 10-20 minutes every play session. Bored players are never great for RPers.

Archived User1

Azathoth

I don't know if sipping ale for an hour should generate exp. I know there are not a lot of good ways to reward rp between players, but I don't know if sitting in a tavern should either.
I would also be against any exp rewarded for afk activities and don't believe fishing should have an afk option.

Nagash

azathoth wrote: »

I don't know if sipping ale for an hour should generate exp. I know there are not a lot of good ways to reward rp between players, but I don't know if sitting in a tavern should either.
I would also be against any exp rewarded for afk activities and don't believe fishing should have an afk option.

that should remove exp really unless you drink tea then you get a bonus to every stat

Archived User1

Azathoth

Still not sure it's a good idea. I would still be against any gain for nothing. You're right, in that it wouldn't matter what the action was, but i was relating to your post.

Archived User1

Azathoth

I am not sure if there is an easy solution. I know many table top groups that struggle with rewarding things outside of combat = xp. I understand the desire to be compelled to RP, but I also think that those that want to will. Those that don't won't, or they will because they will feel required to do it for the benefit.

If Ashes had a RP progression that unlocked emotes or item skins for housing, along the lines of the Adventuring and Crafting Progressions they might be able to sway some non-rp's to rp.

I just don't think it's necessary because it will either feel mandatory/forced if it generates any actual benefit. I could be wrong. If IS went the route you suggested it might encourage RP.

WizardTim

azathoth wrote: »

I am not sure if there is an easy solution. I know many table top groups that struggle with rewarding things outside of combat = xp. I understand the desire to be compelled to RP, but I also think that those that want to will. Those that don't won't, or they will because they will feel required to do it for the benefit.

If Ashes had a RP progression that unlocked emotes or item skins for housing, along the lines of the Adventuring and Crafting Progressions they might be able to sway some non-rp's to rp.

I just don't think it's necessary because it will either feel mandatory/forced if it generates any actual benefit. I could be wrong. If IS went the route you suggested it might encourage RP.

I think his goal isn't really to encourage RP but to reward it with something.

My response would be to use the rested experience system. Not for logging out in the Tavern, but for running an emote and going AFK. Cap it at 3 hours, every hour of chilling in a tavern equals an hour of double experience.

Unless the server population is locked and such, I see no real reason to limit the amount of time people can AFK and stay in the game to 5 minutes. It's always irritated me tbh. It also reduces the need for things like captchas. Walk into a tavern, order an ale, start drinking and your character automatically just runs the emote for 3 hours. Once the emote ends, you'd have some time to get up and order another if you're RPing before the game auto-logs you out if you do nothing.

I don't see this as easily exploitable, if chugging the ale is the only thing you can do (aside from emotes) it becomes a pretty boring way to build up an experience boost without talking to people. And since it's just spending 3 hours to earn 3 hours of double experience, you can likely earn far more experience by just questing/grinding/being active for 6 hours instead.

Dygz

I would rather earn xp learning about fishing and blacksmithing while fishing at a pond or watching a blacksmith craft than gain that xp in a tavern. Also, seems like I should be able to learn combat from listening to people talk about the mobs they killed - if we're going to get crafting xp just by listening to people talk about crafting.

Seems easy enough to me to RP everywhere. Especially when we will have plenty of in-game stories and events and news to gossip about.
Taverns will have food and drink with buffs. They will have parlor games. And they will have bulletin boards with quests and tasks.

I hope that xp cap is supposed to be 3 hours per week. Because 3 hours of double xp per day sounds like the easiest and quickest way to hit max level... and without any risks for the reward.

WizardTim

dygz wrote: »

I would rather earn xp learning about fishing and blacksmithing while fishing at a pond or watching a blacksmith craft than gain that xp in a tavern. Also, seems like I should be able to learn combat from listening to people talk about the mobs they killed - if we're going to get crafting xp just by listening to people talk about crafting.

Seems easy enough to me to RP everywhere. Especially when we will have plenty of in-game stories and events and news to gossip about.
Taverns will have food and drink with buffs. They will have parlor games. And they will have bulletin boards with quests and tasks.

I hope that xp cap is supposed to be 3 hours per week. Because 3 hours of double xp per day sounds like the easiest and quickest way to hit max level... and without any risks for the reward.

3 hours at a time, and like I said if you spend 3 hours of time doing nothing to earn 3 hours of double experience, you are essentially burning 6 hours of time to earn 6 hours of experience. Chances are, 6 hours of uninterrupted questing/grinding will easily net you far more experience than 3 hours of building the buff followed by 3 hours of questing/grinding.

Meaning you drink ale, and as long as you drink the ale, that's how long your double experience buff lasts. The buff doesn't stack with itself, so you could never gain more then 3 hours at a time, but as for daily? No there's no reason to put daily/weekly limits on it. It literally nets you nothing you wouldn't be capable of getting with the same amount of time spent on a more focused task.

Dygz

There is a reason to put daily limits on such a feature. It gains me way more xp for basically doing nothing than it does for people who can only play 6-8 hours per week.

Also, again, better to have other ways to gain passive xp - like visiting smiths and farms - than just hanging out in taverns drinking. There's no reason for taverns to be so OP.

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