Toxicity. An important topic

There will always be toxic people.

However in my opinion toxicity occurs more when a player does not feel connected with another player or players and it occurs less when a player feels that it belongs in a group of players.

I found that games in which the majority of time you spend it in Group Finders either for a battle ground or an instanced dungeon are 100% toxic or silent.
When playing a game in these rules you dont get to know the 3 random people that you got randomly teamed up for a dungeon. So obviously they dont need to be polite to you and you to them. Leading to toxic experiences. Same for BG PvP with a team that your only objective is the victoty of that round.

If the players in those random group finders are not skilled they receive a lot toxicity from the rest. This is not a team. It's a random assembly of people unknown to each other.

I found that I never came across toxic people when I was playing with familiar people. These were a group of 7-9 friends playing together all the time or a guild of 100 or so.
We knew one another and respected each other. We knew things about our friends and their ingame characters. We basically helped develop each other and get stronger and smarter.

In an open world mmorpg a player has to be part of a larger group such as a guild in order to experience all the features of the game.

The player feels proud of the guild and they work to promote their interests and fame all the time.
It's not the same with winning a BG battle or farming an instanced dungeon with some random people.

The more players feel like they belong in a small community the less likely they are to be isoleted, rude and act in a stupid way to make a bad name for themselves and be toxic.

Replace the open world mmorpg with instanced content and what do you have?
A group finder filled with people that want to complete the objective and /leavegroup and you better know that if they dont get to complete it there will be some bullshit accusations and toxicity thrown at each other

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Karthos

Here here.

When brave Moses Toxi traveled from Boston in a covered wagon, eating nothing but Doritos and Game Fuel, his dream was to found a settlement where people can cast off the restrictions of modern life and live free.

Toxicity is this place. Sure the drive by memeing rate has gone up in recent years, but don't forgot to remember the proud people who live there.

Wandering Mist

karthos wrote: »

Here here.

When brave Moses Toxi traveled from Boston in a covered wagon, eating nothing but Doritos and Game Fuel, his dream was to found a settlement where people can cast off the restrictions of modern life and live free.

Toxicity is this place. Sure the drive by memeing rate has gone up in recent years, but don't forgot to remember the proud people who live there.

Someone's been hitting the bottle a bit too hard tonight I reckon...

Azathoth

Sometimes I think when an opinion opposite of another is posted it fosters faux toxicity. Disagreements aren't toxic by nature, but some peeps have to result to name calling and comparing their... IQs to try and convince others an opinion is fact.

As far as in gaming goes, I haven't dealt with it much. As I can mute others or, if drastic measures are needed, play something else. However, in a sub based game I am more likely to shrug it off and ignore until it stops and then troll. So I can't say I am above adding some poison to everyone's drinking water.

Gizban

Toxicity is rampant because it is not punished.

Its like gangrene: if its not cut out, it ruins.

unknownsystemerror

You have to be careful or it starts to duplicate. Like this thread.

Wandering Mist

pyreal wrote: »

Toxicity is rampant because it is not punished.

Its like gangrene: if its not cut out, it ruins.

I disagree. Punishing toxicity is like putting a bandaid on an infected wound. It covers it up but doesn't solve the underlying problems. Punishment should be a last resort, not a starting point.

Damokles

I will write here the same thing i wrote in the post from Toast:

We need a stable, small number of servers, where you cant just change the name of your character. Make the reputation of a person important.
I remember the days in WoW, when people knew the best tanks, healers, dps and blacksmiths by name.
They need to bring those days back!

Another thing that would be nice:
A Server sub-forum, where you can post events and names of griefers etc.

Atama

Toxicity stems from the basic fact that people suck.

Wandering Mist

atama wrote: »

Toxicity stems from the basic fact that people suck.

In my experience it stems from miscommunication, especially in PUGs. One person expects their teammate to do a certain action and when that doesn't happen they become toxic. You'd be amazed at how many problems can be solved just by discussing things before they go wrong.

Nagash

Have you tried air filters they usually work?

Dygz

Dead men need no air.

Nagash

dygz wrote: »

Dead men need no air.

Im not the one who has a problem with toxicity

Dygz

Which is why you are so keen on helping others not have a problem with toxicity either.

Nagash

It means more for me ^^

Gubstep

I think the promotion of a good environment is more effective than punishing a toxic one.
FFXIV is a good example of this and has one of the most welcoming communities in the MMO scene.

They have one feature specifically that I hope Ashes will take note of, their commendation system. At the end of a dungeon run or group finder w/e. The game asks you to commend one player from that group for their performance/participation. In turn, that player that receives the commendation gets a currency that can be used for special cosmetic rewards for putting their best foot forward.

I thought this was an awesome system because it pits players against each other in a competitive nature to engage with the party. Both socially and mechanically.

I'm also a big fan of the "mentor" system some games put in, but it never seems to be done correctly. I do enjoy the concept of veteran players being rewarded for helping newbies though. I think it creates less divide in the community.

Wandering Mist

bazgrim wrote: »

I think the promotion of a good environment is more effective than punishing a toxic one.
FFXIV is a good example of this and has one of the most welcoming communities in the MMO scene.

They have one feature specifically that I hope Ashes will take note of, their commendation system. At the end of a dungeon run or group finder w/e. The game asks you to commend one player from that group for their performance/participation. In turn, that player that receives the commendation gets a currency that can be used for special cosmetic rewards for putting their best foot forward.

I thought this was an awesome system because it pits players against each other in a competitive nature to engage with the party. Both socially and mechanically.

I'm also a big fan of the "mentor" system some games put in, but it never seems to be done correctly. I do enjoy the concept of veteran players being rewarded for helping newbies though. I think it creates less divide in the community.

I'm probably alone in this but as a teacher irl I don't need a reward for helping people. I do it because I enjoy helping others and seeing them grow. Mentor systems that offer rewards to the mentors take away that aspect because too often the mentors only do it for the rewards. There's also the problem of what criteria you put in for who can become a mentor. In FFXIV you have a basic set of competency requirements in order to get mentor status. The problem is that these requirements aren't really based on skill, just time. Completing a certain number of dungeons isn't hard, it just takes a long time.

On top of that there are a lot of skilled players who make absolutely terrible teachers. Just because you have a lot of knowledge doesn't mean you are a good at giving that knowledge to other people. It's not about what you teach, but what your students learn. If your students don't learn anything or improve, then you have failed.

In my opinion, leave the teaching to those who actually WANT to teach.

Dygz

If I were concerned about reporting toxicity, I would just record my gameplay sessions and be sure to post clips of whomever I considered to be a toxic player. Others can look at the evidence and draw their own conclusions.

Gubstep

wanderingmist wrote: »

bazgrim wrote: »

I think the promotion of a good environment is more effective than punishing a toxic one.
FFXIV is a good example of this and has one of the most welcoming communities in the MMO scene.

They have one feature specifically that I hope Ashes will take note of, their commendation system. At the end of a dungeon run or group finder w/e. The game asks you to commend one player from that group for their performance/participation. In turn, that player that receives the commendation gets a currency that can be used for special cosmetic rewards for putting their best foot forward.

I thought this was an awesome system because it pits players against each other in a competitive nature to engage with the party. Both socially and mechanically.

I'm also a big fan of the "mentor" system some games put in, but it never seems to be done correctly. I do enjoy the concept of veteran players being rewarded for helping newbies though. I think it creates less divide in the community.

I'm probably alone in this but as a teacher irl I don't need a reward for helping people. I do it because I enjoy helping others and seeing them grow. Mentor systems that offer rewards to the mentors take away that aspect because too often the mentors only do it for the rewards. There's also the problem of what criteria you put in for who can become a mentor. In FFXIV you have a basic set of competency requirements in order to get mentor status. The problem is that these requirements aren't really based on skill, just time. Completing a certain number of dungeons isn't hard, it just takes a long time.

On top of that there are a lot of skilled players who make absolutely terrible teachers. Just because you have a lot of knowledge doesn't mean you are a good at giving that knowledge to other people. It's not about what you teach, but what your students learn. If your students don't learn anything or improve, then you have failed.

In my opinion, leave the teaching to those who actually WANT to teach.

That's why I said I haven't seen a game do it correctly. I enjoy the concept, but execution always seems to be very poor. The commendation system is based in the simple science that makes the RPG loop work. Explore -> Kill/Quest -> Collect. It's a feedback loop that gives a hit of dopamine every time the player does something good they are rewarded for it. By integrating this template into something that promotes positive behavior from players, it might be a one of many solutions to keeping toxicity to a minimum.

Bad teachers are a problem in real life, but this is a video game. You don't need a degree to teach games and you aren't required to show up and learn what someone wants to teach you. I think you're looking too deep into this and making a hard comparison to how teaching works in the real world. (and getting a wee bit defensive about it) The two cannot be compared fairly.

You aren't forced to participate in either of those systems if you don't want to in FFXIV. You can play the entire game without ever giving/spending a single commendation or being a mentor/under a mentor. In the end isn't that really what most games are about, freedom of choice by the player? Especially in Ashes with the different nodes. Some people really suck at making money in games and are just poor economy players, does it mean we shouldn't have economic nodes? No... It means that we should give players other avenues to have fun and play the game the way they want like scientific nodes.

Wandering Mist

bazgrim wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

bazgrim wrote: »

I think the promotion of a good environment is more effective than punishing a toxic one.
FFXIV is a good example of this and has one of the most welcoming communities in the MMO scene.

They have one feature specifically that I hope Ashes will take note of, their commendation system. At the end of a dungeon run or group finder w/e. The game asks you to commend one player from that group for their performance/participation. In turn, that player that receives the commendation gets a currency that can be used for special cosmetic rewards for putting their best foot forward.

I thought this was an awesome system because it pits players against each other in a competitive nature to engage with the party. Both socially and mechanically.

I'm also a big fan of the "mentor" system some games put in, but it never seems to be done correctly. I do enjoy the concept of veteran players being rewarded for helping newbies though. I think it creates less divide in the community.

I'm probably alone in this but as a teacher irl I don't need a reward for helping people. I do it because I enjoy helping others and seeing them grow. Mentor systems that offer rewards to the mentors take away that aspect because too often the mentors only do it for the rewards. There's also the problem of what criteria you put in for who can become a mentor. In FFXIV you have a basic set of competency requirements in order to get mentor status. The problem is that these requirements aren't really based on skill, just time. Completing a certain number of dungeons isn't hard, it just takes a long time.

On top of that there are a lot of skilled players who make absolutely terrible teachers. Just because you have a lot of knowledge doesn't mean you are a good at giving that knowledge to other people. It's not about what you teach, but what your students learn. If your students don't learn anything or improve, then you have failed.

In my opinion, leave the teaching to those who actually WANT to teach.

That's why I said I haven't seen a game do it correctly. I enjoy the concept, but execution always seems to be very poor. The commendation system is based in the simple science that makes the RPG loop work. Explore -> Kill/Quest -> Collect. It's a feedback loop that gives a hit of dopamine every time the player does something good they are rewarded for it. By integrating this template into something that promotes positive behavior from players, it might be a one of many solutions to keeping toxicity to a minimum.

Bad teachers are a problem in real life, but this is a video game. You don't need a degree to teach games and you aren't required to show up and learn what someone wants to teach you. I think you're looking too deep into this and making a hard comparison to how teaching works in the real world. (and getting a wee bit defensive about it) The two cannot be compared fairly.

You aren't forced to participate in either of those systems if you don't want to in FFXIV. You can play the entire game without ever giving/spending a single commendation or being a mentor/under a mentor. In the end isn't that really what most games are about, freedom of choice by the player? Especially in Ashes with the different nodes. Some people really suck at making money in games and are just poor economy players, does it mean we shouldn't have economic nodes? No... It means that we should give players other avenues to have fun and play the game the way they want like scientific nodes.

Let me ask you something. Why does a mentoring system need to have rewards or titles attached to it?

I'd like you to really think about it before you answer.

Gubstep

wanderingmist wrote: »

bazgrim wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

bazgrim wrote: »

I think the promotion of a good environment is more effective than punishing a toxic one.
FFXIV is a good example of this and has one of the most welcoming communities in the MMO scene.

They have one feature specifically that I hope Ashes will take note of, their commendation system. At the end of a dungeon run or group finder w/e. The game asks you to commend one player from that group for their performance/participation. In turn, that player that receives the commendation gets a currency that can be used for special cosmetic rewards for putting their best foot forward.

I thought this was an awesome system because it pits players against each other in a competitive nature to engage with the party. Both socially and mechanically.

I'm also a big fan of the "mentor" system some games put in, but it never seems to be done correctly. I do enjoy the concept of veteran players being rewarded for helping newbies though. I think it creates less divide in the community.

I'm probably alone in this but as a teacher irl I don't need a reward for helping people. I do it because I enjoy helping others and seeing them grow. Mentor systems that offer rewards to the mentors take away that aspect because too often the mentors only do it for the rewards. There's also the problem of what criteria you put in for who can become a mentor. In FFXIV you have a basic set of competency requirements in order to get mentor status. The problem is that these requirements aren't really based on skill, just time. Completing a certain number of dungeons isn't hard, it just takes a long time.

On top of that there are a lot of skilled players who make absolutely terrible teachers. Just because you have a lot of knowledge doesn't mean you are a good at giving that knowledge to other people. It's not about what you teach, but what your students learn. If your students don't learn anything or improve, then you have failed.

In my opinion, leave the teaching to those who actually WANT to teach.

That's why I said I haven't seen a game do it correctly. I enjoy the concept, but execution always seems to be very poor. The commendation system is based in the simple science that makes the RPG loop work. Explore -> Kill/Quest -> Collect. It's a feedback loop that gives a hit of dopamine every time the player does something good they are rewarded for it. By integrating this template into something that promotes positive behavior from players, it might be a one of many solutions to keeping toxicity to a minimum.

Bad teachers are a problem in real life, but this is a video game. You don't need a degree to teach games and you aren't required to show up and learn what someone wants to teach you. I think you're looking too deep into this and making a hard comparison to how teaching works in the real world. (and getting a wee bit defensive about it) The two cannot be compared fairly.

You aren't forced to participate in either of those systems if you don't want to in FFXIV. You can play the entire game without ever giving/spending a single commendation or being a mentor/under a mentor. In the end isn't that really what most games are about, freedom of choice by the player? Especially in Ashes with the different nodes. Some people really suck at making money in games and are just poor economy players, does it mean we shouldn't have economic nodes? No... It means that we should give players other avenues to have fun and play the game the way they want like scientific nodes.

Let me ask you something. Why does a mentoring system need to have rewards or titles attached to it?

I'd like you to really think about it before you answer.

As I explained above.... A simple dopamine loop is usually how games keep and engage players.
Social sites like Twitter, Facebook, etc. all use this approach as well. It's why you never have to refresh the page. You reach the end of the page, it automatically loads new information that you might find relevant or what's commonly referred to as a "dopamine hit". The same mechanic is employed is most addictive behaviors like gambling, loot boxes, etc. It's why you get a big animation, flashing lights and sounds when you open a lootbox in other games. The game wants to make you feel good about performing that action.

Now while this mechanic is employed in horrendous things like lootboxes, the same concept can be applied for positive reinforcement when the player does something good like help a new player.

"Why does a dungeon system need rewards attached to it?"
"Why does currency need rewards attached to it?"
"Why do monsters need to drop loot when they die?"
"Why do you need to be rewarded when finishing a quest?"
"Why do I need to pay someone to make this for me? Isn't self-satisfaction enough?"

It's the reason that almost every game on the market right now employs the use of achievements. Achievement points are usually meaningless, BUT, it's a way of rewarding the player for doing something the game considers good.

Just like how most forums now employ that little like button below this post. When you receive a like/agree, it makes you feel good that other people on the forums agree with what you have to say. In turn, you'll probably post more because you feel valued as a member of the community.

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