DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

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Noaani

Azathoth wrote: »

Wololo wrote: »

lmao this thread is insane
but a good read
so can yall agree dps meters is a bad idea now ? and that it holds more players off raiding then it gets players into it adds fuel to the fire

Yes, because agreeing is what we do here

I agree.

TheRealDex

It would be dividing people more than uniting them. I say get to know the people you play with. That will help even more. But that's me.

Sorry, it's a no for me.

Blackhearted

Noaani cant even imagine a game without combat tracker, does that count as an addiction?

GrinningJack

This thread is like me spamming dps meters in chat. It used to be funny.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

In terms of figuring out raid content though, if there is an ability (or synergy) needed as a key component of killing a specific raid encounter, and that ability (or synergy) is present on the raid, most raids would kill that encounter on their third pull - the first to figure out the mechanic, the second to figure out the frequency, the third to execute (note; if it is not a mechanic that instantly kills the raid, the frequency may be figured out on the first pull, meaning the second pull will be the execution).

More likely than that is the need for a raid to have a specific number of a specific class with a specific augment (or perhaps a specific number of any of a few different classes each with their own specific augment that all perform a similar function).

Point is, if the resources to kill an encounter are present in the raid, that raid can expect to kill the encounter unless the encounter is overly complex.

I expect this to be the case without the need of using a combat tracker.
It's just not going to be based on who is doing the lowest dps.

Lex

Imagine a game where interaction with your team is more important than numbers on a screen.

Azathoth

Lex wrote: »

Imagine a game where interaction with your team is more important than numbers on a screen.

You can't make me.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

In terms of figuring out raid content though, if there is an ability (or synergy) needed as a key component of killing a specific raid encounter, and that ability (or synergy) is present on the raid, most raids would kill that encounter on their third pull - the first to figure out the mechanic, the second to figure out the frequency, the third to execute (note; if it is not a mechanic that instantly kills the raid, the frequency may be figured out on the first pull, meaning the second pull will be the execution).

More likely than that is the need for a raid to have a specific number of a specific class with a specific augment (or perhaps a specific number of any of a few different classes each with their own specific augment that all perform a similar function).

Point is, if the resources to kill an encounter are present in the raid, that raid can expect to kill the encounter unless the encounter is overly complex.

I expect this to be the case without the need of using a combat tracker.
It's just not going to be based on who is doing the lowest dps.

DPS is about 10% of what a competent raid uses a combat tracker for. This is why I refuse to call them "DPS meters".

That said, I also expect everything in the post of mine that you quoted to be able to be done without a combat tracker, because that kind of thing is all black and white.

On raids, the need to use specific abilities (or synergies) at specific times are in order to counter specific things. An example of this would be an encounter that has an AE that they use every 45 seconds, that deals so much damage that no player taking on the encounter would be able to survive. Yet quite strangely, there are abilities that three classes have that allow the caster and the closest 7 other characters to avoid an AE. These abilities on these three classes may have a recast timer of 75 seconds.

The simple conclusion then is that a raid of 40 needs to have 10 people in it of the three classes that have the ability. The raid gets broken down in to groups of 8, each group with two of those classes in it.Each group is to keep close together in order to ensure that there is no overlap in the abilities (which would likely result isn someone not being covered). Each group has one person that avoids the AE on the first cast, and one that avoids it on the second, then by the third cast, the first AE avoid recast is back up.

None of that requires the use of a combat tracker - though a combat tracker can be used to assist with a few things there. However, that encounter is also so simple that I would consider it to be one of the easier raid base population trash mobs - not even an add from a boss encounter.

Anything an encounter can throw at a raid that is able to be solved by the correct use of a single ability or synergy (10 people using the same ability in rotation is a single use) is not something that needs a combat tracker for. Now, needing a specific chain unique to the encounter of 15 - 20 abilities and/or synergies all similar to the above, that may need some assistance in terms of management, and that is where top end raiding would begin.

Noaani

blackhearted wrote: »

Noaani cant even imagine a game without combat tracker, does that count as an addiction?

There's no need to imagine it, because a combat tracker will always exist. As I've said in this thread, I know of two combat trackers in development for other games now that will be able to be easily ported to Ashes - and the developer of one of them will be in the beta for this game.

My argument is about having it in game so that Intrepid have control over who is able to use it, and when.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

DPS is about 10% of what a competent raid uses a combat tracker for. This is why I refuse to call them "DPS meters".

Right. And most people think that less than 10% of players who group and players who raid use such tools competently.
Which is precisely the reason the devs are banning them.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

DPS is about 10% of what a competent raid uses a combat tracker for. This is why I refuse to call them "DPS meters".

Right. And most people think that less than 10% of players who group and players who raid use such tools competently.

I personally think it's more than that.

I think about 5% of people use them incompetently - these are the only people where there is a valid argument against them.

I think a good 50% of people that use them simply troll with them - these people will troll with or without a combat tracker.

And the rest use them competently.

However, there is a difference between using them competently and being in a position where their use is required.

Someone wanting to come up with their own build within a specific concept - but where the build is as effective as possible - have a valid use for a combat tracker, even though they may not actually need one.

Which is precisely the reason the devs are banning them.

Except they aren't.

Dygz

The devs don't agree with your assessment.

Virulent

I am against DPS meters being in this game.

consultant

Well think dps meters and combat tracker would be good for challenge material in pve. But wnated to add that dps meters are really help ful to tanks and healers too. So tanks and healers are going to be left guessing which are vital to group content. Dps going to be in he dark to but really more criticical for a tank cause if he wipes then....same thing for healers being able to put out decent heals no problem in non difficult content but more important in more difficult content.

plus the are other things that on dps meters like damage avoided dodged parried blocked sheilded. Plus things like how often you actually crit and energy gains for abilities the give you mana.

I get it it is not all about dps but those dps meters can be used for lot more than just damage meters.

consultant

Was thinking that no dps meters could hurt pvp community cause at high ratings all that dps and combat tracker information is pretty useful.

Noaani

Yeah, combat trackers will be particularly useful in PvP.

It's actually where I expect to see them used the most of Intrepid don't put one in to the game themselves.

HumblePuffin

I’m someone that normally loves a dps meter. I’m a fan of knowing where I compare to people. I can see why people wouldn’t like it available all the time though. I have certainly seen it used as a toxic tool before.

I just finished Log Horizon and in the anime the main character was an “enchanter” and basically simulated a raid leader. Everyone else saw limited info on the field but he was able to see everything.

That got me thinking that it may be cool if to have all of that raid information at your disposal you had to be trained. You had to go through a quest chain of sorts to become skilled in leading people through a dungeon, and unlocking this extra info.

While I’m sure a huge amount of the population would have completed this down the line, it would become an optional goal to have. Add some flavor to becoming this battle technician instead of just being able to drop down the meter instantly when you enter the game.

I feel like this, with dps dummies at PvP nodes, or just a general perk at a certain node level to train on could be a decent compromise.

consultant

Well knowing why you died is pretty important is not always obvious

Noaani

HumblePuffin wrote: »

I’m someone that normally loves a dps meter. I’m a fan of knowing where I compare to people. I can see why people wouldn’t like it available all the time though. I have certainly seen it used as a toxic tool before.

I just finished Log Horizon and in the anime the main character was an “enchanter” and basically simulated a raid leader. Everyone else saw limited info on the field but he was able to see everything.

That got me thinking that it may be cool if to have all of that raid information at your disposal you had to be trained. You had to go through a quest chain of sorts to become skilled in leading people through a dungeon, and unlocking this extra info.

While I’m sure a huge amount of the population would have completed this down the line, it would become an optional goal to have. Add some flavor to becoming this battle technician instead of just being able to drop down the meter instantly when you enter the game.

I feel like this, with dps dummies at PvP nodes, or just a general perk at a certain node level to train on could be a decent compromise.

I really like this idea, the only thing I'd do is make it a task that you need to perform to gain access to a combat tracker for a week at which point you can do it again - and this is coming from someone that hates the idea of daily/weekly tasks.

The idea here would be that if the task is substantial enough, only people that actually have a specific use for a combat tracker would actually perform it - but anyone that wants access to it for what ever reason is able to access it without too much trouble.

In terms of people that use it for trolling/griefing, if someone is going to go through the effort of performing the task to get access to the tracker just so they can use it to grief someone, then that person was going to grief someone regardless.

Making it a weekly thing also means that access to it won't ever become something that is expected.

Dygz

HumblePuffin wrote: »

I just finished Log Horizon and in the anime the main character was an “enchanter” and basically simulated a raid leader. Everyone else saw limited info on the field but he was able to see everything.

In Log Horizon, the key to winning battles was learning how to adjust to supporting the abilities each person in the group liked to use, rather than just having each individual go for optimal DPS. Or using the exact same tactics they would if trying to solo.

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