DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

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HumblePuffin

Dygz wrote: »

In Log Horizon, the key to winning battles was learning how to adjust to supporting the abilities each person in the group liked to use, rather than just having each individual go for optimal DPS. Or using the exact same tactics they would if trying to solo.

I normally default to the dps side of a lot of the meters, but I would hope if they put in a meter they would measure other parts of the group as well. I’ve used meters that have tracked basically all of my relevant info for me such as HPS, overheals, aggro percentages, damage intake, etc.

The point of my post was more about trying to make the use of a meter more meaningful than *turns on meter*, and locking it behind content so it’s more likely to be used by those who actually need it, instead of every person who wants to show off their

Staying with Log Horizon, Season 2 mid season during the raid battle, information/percentages are constantly getting called out that would be ridiculously hard to track on your own without aggro information, damage outputs, buff/debuff timers. That’s what made him so good at what he did, he was able to take in all of this information given to him by the “worlds” interface and turn it into on the fly tactics.

If you’re concerned that including a dps meter will lead to only tuning for optimal dps, that is the fault of the game itself not the meter. The meter should just be a tool, the fights should be interesting enough that everything you said in the quoted post is true with or without a meter.

noaani wrote: »

I really like this idea, the only thing I'd do is make it a task that you need to perform to gain access to a combat tracker for a week at which point you can do it again - and this is coming from someone that hates the idea of daily/weekly tasks.

I like the idea of it needing to be redone. One and done is far too easy to do and would lead to everyone having one. To even expand on this maybe it’s an actual item, could be crafted or not, but it could have a decay and after X amount of time it breaks. I like the idea of weekly better than daily. That way raid/dungeon leaders could get theirs and be good for an entire week of dungeons and raids. Then tie it to a quest that imbues the item the magic needed to read your parties info, or some other way that activates it.

I truly do hope that they don’t just slap a meter in the game. I agree that it possesses the ability to create toxic situations, but I do think it is a very valuable tool to have in an mmo

Noaani

HumblePuffin wrote: »

I truly do hope that they don’t just slap a meter in the game. I agree that it possesses the ability to create toxic situations, but I do think it is a very valuable tool to have in an mmo

As do I.

Making it an item that deteriorates after a week is good, that means that not only do people need to go out and earn it every week, but it also takes up a valuable inventory slot - something that will mean more in Ashes than in other games. Basically, it means people won't have one at all unless they actually value what it can do - and if someone values what it can do they probably know how to make use of it properly.

The other thing with treating it as a piece of content rather than as a tool - it makes it easier or developers to justify designing content that requires it.

With a combat tracker, the developers can throw an encounter at players that requires us to keep track of far more information than we could keep track of without one. If the tracker is a part of content, then developers don't even need to point players towards a tool to make that content possible, they need only point to another piece of content.

Azathoth

Still not a big fan of the 'trackers allow creators to develop more complex content' but I am a fan of making it an item.

As an item that deteiroates with other gear, and that could be repaired, crafted, and sold, we turn it into something of higher value to the game. It can be a gold sink, it can be an obtainable goal, it can be something some players feel is required before doing some (or all) content. I think it would also cut down on other players in raids demanding to know your score (especially since it should not be something that can be traded).

If they want to give you gold, and trust you use said gold to buy a tracker, and you choose to do that then any negative response from having it would be on you.

Again, this won't solve most peoples issues with them being in the game. But I do appreciate this approach

Noaani

Azathoth wrote: »

Still not a big fan of the 'trackers allow creators to develop more complex content'

I'm not sure why, both Blizzard and SoE said they needed to do exactly this over a decade ago.

It's the difference between a math exam where you have a calculator, and a math exam where you don't. If you were writing those exams, you'd be foolish to not make the exam where calculators are able to be used somewhat harder.

akabear

I agree with love / hate relationship with them. I do like to know what damage I am dishing out but I did prefer the days where you had sufficient sense by watching the hp go down on a mob and more focused on the event you are taking place in rather than the periphery data.

Azathoth

noaani wrote: »

Azathoth wrote: »

Still not a big fan of the 'trackers allow creators to develop more complex content'

I'm not sure why, both Blizzard and SoE said they needed to do exactly this over a decade ago.

It's the difference between a math exam where you have a calculator, and a math exam where you don't. If you were writing those exams, you'd be foolish to not make the exam where calculators are able to be used somewhat harder.

We can all pick examples of real world things to associate with our point.
In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example.

There are many things companies do that I don't agree with. Just because major players do things, that doesn't mean I have to jump on board. But I am capable of independent thought, like everyone else here, and therefore do not feel like a calculator is necessary to play the game.

Again, I am not against them, just the thought they are somehow required to make the game more difficult.
I am also still a fan of including them as in-game items that need to be crafted, purchased, and maintained.

Dygz

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Staying with Log Horizon, Season 2 mid season during the raid battle, information/percentages are constantly getting called out that would be ridiculously hard to track on your own without aggro information, damage outputs, buff/debuff timers. That’s what made him so good at what he did, he was able to take in all of this information given to him by the “worlds” interface and turn it into on the fly tactics.

If you’re concerned that including a dps meter will lead to only tuning for optimal dps, that is the fault of the game itself not the meter. The meter should just be a tool, the fights should be interesting enough that everything you said in the quoted post is true with or without a meter.

It's the fault of the players who use the meters and trackers as a quick and easy blame game tool - which is far too many players.
When I think of Log Horizon in regard to Ashes, it's always about those characters having to learn to adjust to how their teammates play vs trying to play the same as if they were trying to maximize their own dps. That's the brilliance I'm hoping to reproduce.
If most players used the combat trackers like Shiroe does, sure, that would be great.
But, that's a utopian fantasy rather than reality.

Dygz

Azathoth wrote: »

We can all pick examples of real world things to associate with our point.
In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example.

haha
Yes. I am trying very, very hard to avoid using real world examples so that people don't whine about me being too political.

Noaani

Azathoth wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Azathoth wrote: »

Still not a big fan of the 'trackers allow creators to develop more complex content'

I'm not sure why, both Blizzard and SoE said they needed to do exactly this over a decade ago.

It's the difference between a math exam where you have a calculator, and a math exam where you don't. If you were writing those exams, you'd be foolish to not make the exam where calculators are able to be used somewhat harder.

We can all pick examples of real world things to associate with our point.
In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example.

There are many things companies do that I don't agree with. Just because major players do things, that doesn't mean I have to jump on board. But I am capable of independent thought, like everyone else here, and therefore do not feel like a calculator is necessary to play the game.

Again, I am not against them, just the thought they are somehow required to make the game more difficult.
I am also still a fan of including them as in-game items that need to be crafted, purchased, and maintained.

The trick to making it harder is to do so while not excluding people from the content. It's really easy to make hard content if you don't actually mind if people don't complete it.

Higher math classes are "higher" because not everyone is able to wrap their head around the concepts.

Everyone is able to come to terms with how a calculator works.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Staying with Log Horizon, Season 2 mid season during the raid battle, information/percentages are constantly getting called out that would be ridiculously hard to track on your own without aggro information, damage outputs, buff/debuff timers. That’s what made him so good at what he did, he was able to take in all of this information given to him by the “worlds” interface and turn it into on the fly tactics.

If you’re concerned that including a dps meter will lead to only tuning for optimal dps, that is the fault of the game itself not the meter. The meter should just be a tool, the fights should be interesting enough that everything you said in the quoted post is true with or without a meter.

It's the fault of the players who use the meters and trackers as a quick and easy blame game tool - which is far too many players.
When I think of Log Horizon in regard to Ashes, it's always about those characters having to learn to adjust to how their teammates play vs trying to play the same as if they were trying to maximize their own dps. That's the brilliance I'm hoping to reproduce.

The funny thing about this is it doesn't mean everyone around you has to alter their play to match yours, it means you have to alter your play to match everyone around you.

Raids already do this.

If you don't do this on a raid, it may be why people look at combat trackers and then blame you.

Azathoth

Then if they create a Tracker they would have to make the game more difficult because everyone has access?
Not everyone will use it. IS doesn't have to make the content easy, they can make the game difficult. They can make the game where top level players have to try multiple times to understand the scope of the combat. Just because it is hard, it doesn't mean you should be given a tool to make it easier.

You want a combat tracker to make difficult content easier so IS can make higher difficulty content?

consultant

Well lets say I want to run a more defensive set up. Well I would need to know how much dps it would cost me and how much extra defense I am getting in terms of hit points.

So now I have to reverse engineer that. Really more important in pvp.

So let me ask you this question how many PvPers are going to want to come to Ashes of Creation and take the time to figure it out with out a dps meter or combat tracker when they already playing a game that allows one.

Really think people will want to reverse engineer their dps or defensive abilities.
For competative pvp it is pretty much a must have ...Not the dps meter the information is a must have.

Azathoth

"Well lets say I want to run a more defensive set up. Well I would need to know how much dps it would cost me and how much extra defense I am getting in terms of hit points."
My response is a simple, if not slightly time consuming one. Play the game.

You don't "Have" to reverse engineer one, although you might 'want' to.

If I start a new game, and decide it's not for me because the mechanics I enjoy are not being utilized I make a choice:

A) Continue playing the game as it is, or

Find a game more suited to my play style.

I don't see why this isn't an option. There are many games I don't play because of this, and they all seem to do fine. There are many games I am still playing that are also doing fine. Ashes will obviously lose market space on the PvP only crowd and the PvE only crowd, so I'm not seeing where this potential loss of players is going to greatly effect their overall projections (assuming they have them).
Ashes is a niche game being a PvX that doesn't have full loot, PvE safe zones, and uses corruption as a 'punishment-like' deterrent to unwanted PvP.

Since when does every game released have to match everyone's play style?

"For competative pvp it is pretty much a must have ...Not the dps meter the information is a must have."
But there are so many games designed specifically for competitive PvP, which will likely all do it better than Ashes since Ashes is a PvX. So why wouldn't they play there for competitive PvP and play Ashes for different reasons?

Who knows, maybe Ashes will be such an awesome game some players might be willing to step outside their norm/comfort-zone and just enjoy it. PvX is not my style, but I am totally planning on embracing it because that is the type of game Ashes is, and I want to play Ashes.

Noaani

Azathoth wrote: »

You want a combat tracker to make difficult content easier so IS can make higher difficulty content?

Yes!

Now you get it!

But seriously, this is actually about it.

If you are given a math exam where you have no access to a calculator, you can safely assume that the exam will be testing your ability to perform basic arithmetic, and perhaps your grasp on the basics of BEDMAS (or PODMAS).

However, if you have access to a calculator, it is a given that these things will be all correct - as these are all functions the calculator can perform for you. Rather, a math exam where you have access to a calculator is more about the formulae, the method or the logic used.

These exams are objectively harder because they contain all of the teachings from the earlier exam. However, once a student is at the level where such an exam may be handed to them, it is expected that complete knowledge of those basic functions are a give - so instead of burdening the student with having to continue to perform them, they allow them use of a calculator in order to be able to focus on the higher aspects of the exam.

I'm actually going to attempt to illustrate my point by logging back in to EQ2 when I have some free time, mentoring down to level 65 and running all the raid content where the encounters are level 55 (content that was in the game at launch or shortly after - designed without combat trackers taken in to account), and then with the same characters mentoring down to 75 and attempting the raid content at level 65 (DoF, the games first expansion - content that was designed with combat trackers in mind). I may also do level 75 content, will see if I get time.

I predict that I will be able to kill every single level 55 encounter in the game, but only a handful of level 65, and only one or two at level 75. This is because the encounters made with combat trackers in mind are more complex - there is more going on, and I won't be able to handle it all myself. Whereas the level 55 encounters - those designed without combat trackers in mind - are all comparatively straight forward even though they were something of a challenge at the time.

Azathoth

But wouldn't the difficult content be difficult without a tracker?
Meaning you wouldn't need complex material to satisfy the need for difficult content, because you wouldn't be using a tool to make the material easier for you.

To me this sounds a bit weird. You want the content to be difficult, but you want a tool to make it easier for you. This is the equivalent of using cheat codes to play a game, and then telling all your buddies the game is "too easy" without explaining that you are using cheat codes.

I don't think IS should provide a tool that makes Ashes easier, I think the player base should step up their performance level. I also don't think IS should focus on exceptionally hard content, since their plan is a large swath of players. Games like Dark Souls can increase the difficulty all they want, their player base is more limited, but also dedicated.

Again, I think the idea of the deteriorating personal tracker is a great idea. I also believe adding it to guilds for a perk (if chosen) is also a good idea. Using both of these methods would likely be even better.

But wanting a tool to make things easier, and then wanting more difficult things to occur because you have the tool, seems odd imo.

Noaani

Azathoth wrote: »

To me this sounds a bit weird. You want the content to be difficult, but you want a tool to make it easier for you.

In the same way a math exam will test you for different things based on if you do or do not have access to a calculator, a raid encounter can test the raid for different things based on if they do or do not have access to a combat tracker.

It isn't so much a case of making the content difficult - though this is what happens. It is about making the content more interesting.

There is only so many exams you can take where basic arithmetic (and algebra) is what is expected of you, but once you get that calculator, you can start on geometry, and then on to metric geometry, molecular geometry, non-Eucliden geometry etc (and hey, there are also hundreds of fields of math that are not geometry based!). All of these are far more interesting than anything that would result in an exam where there is no access to a calculator.

One of the basic functions of a raid is timing AE's. It is perfectly possible for someone to to do this with a stopwatch (or stopwatch function on a phone). However, once the raid as a whole has proven that they can time AE's, it becomes a cause of tedium to have to keep timing AE's manually like this.

Now, the developers could only put AE's in the game where the encounter has some massive emote before using the AE, but this is like handing out a math exam, but replacing all multiplication with repeated addition. Keeping an eye out for an emote is one skill, timing an AE is a different skill. Further, if the developers decide that an encounter has to have noticeable animations for their AE's, that limits what you can do with AE's on raid encounters. You couldn't give the encounter an AE with a 45 second timer and another with a 30 second timer, because then at 90 seconds when both AE's are to go off, one animation will overwrite the other (or, if the game is coded badly, the zone will crash).

The raid has proven that we can time these AE's, and further content will have more and more AE's involved with them. If the raid has access to something that can do the basic function (timing the AE), the raid as a whole can then focus on the bigger picture of dealing with out the multiple AEs in an encounter may interact with each other.

Azathoth

"There is only so many exams you can take where basic arithmetic (and algebra) is what is expected of you, but once you get that calculator, you can start on geometry, and then on to metric geometry, molecular geometry, non-Eucliden geometry etc (and hey, there are also hundreds of fields of math that are not geometry based!). All of these are far more interesting than anything that would result in an exam where there is no access to a calculator."

This is only true, as you said:

"Higher math classes are "higher" because not everyone is able to wrap their head around the concepts."

So, according to your theory now you want a tool to do more difficult content. But that more difficult content would only be appreciated by those that can wrap their heads (skill level) around it. So that falls back to my comment which you disagreed with

"In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example."

So you are effectively saying that just having the tool doesn't make the content easier. You still have to understand and study the content, in this case playing the game. Only after playing the game for so long will you be able to use the tool to actually make the game easier.

My point is by then, the content should be easier because your skill level has improved. So adding the usage of the tool at that point will only make slightly challenging content easier.

Then you ask for harder content because the tool allows you to not be challenged anymore.
Whereas without the tool, the content could still be more challenging.

-Mathematical Rant- TL/DR: A tool will inherently mean the game is designed at a low enough level a majority of players would not need the tool

I have a bachelors in Mathematics. I assure you there are plenty of geometry tests I have taken that were difficult and did not require a calculator. To that extent, there were test that if someone unfamiliar with the concepts were given a calculator, they would still fail. I tried to dissuade you from using mathematics as an example, but you insist on doing so.

You can be tested on knowledge and skill, which rarely if ever requires a calculator. Those tests given to individuals without the knowledge and skill will fail even with programmable calculators. Because the calculator can only quantify input, it can't understand the subject matter. Which, to your point with the tracker, makes the tracker a tool that is used inherently to do something the tool doesn't understand. So users that don't understand it, as you have pointed out, will fail to use it properly.

You can also be tested on "do you know how to use your calculator" which is pretty much any test in mathematics before algebra. That being said, you can still be tested on your knowledge in algebra from beginner to geometric algebra or abstract algebra without ever requiring a calculator.

Tests given after high school, and high school equivalent math classes, are not tests designed for you to show how well you manipulate a calculator. Lower level math classes however are designed for you to use your tool. Because it allows for standardized testing with quantitative and comparable results across demographics.

If IS designs encounters specifically due to the implementation of a tracker, than I could say based on your example and my familiarity with it, that the content was made easy to understand so everyone could use the tool and be comparably equal. In which case, the content will be stagnate, require less base understanding of the game, and repetitive.

@noaani, if you were insisting on the usage of Applied Mathematics or Physics my rant would be baseless. That said, your statement of "higher level math classes are..." would apply. Because a vast majority of people can't sit down, open a physics book for the first time, and just start accurately answering every question.

Noaani

Azathoth wrote: »

"There is only so many exams you can take where basic arithmetic (and algebra) is what is expected of you, but once you get that calculator, you can start on geometry, and then on to metric geometry, molecular geometry, non-Eucliden geometry etc (and hey, there are also hundreds of fields of math that are not geometry based!). All of these are far more interesting than anything that would result in an exam where there is no access to a calculator."

This is only true, as you said:

"Higher math classes are "higher" because not everyone is able to wrap their head around the concepts."

So, according to your theory now you want a tool to do more difficult content. But that more difficult content would only be appreciated by those that can wrap their heads (skill level) around it. So that falls back to my comment which you disagreed with

"In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example."

So you are effectively saying that just having the tool doesn't make the content easier. You still have to understand and study the content, in this case playing the game. Only after playing the game for so long will you be able to use the tool to actually make the game easier.

My point is by then, the content should be easier because your skill level has improved. So adding the usage of the tool at that point will only make slightly challenging content easier.

Then you ask for harder content because the tool allows you to not be challenged anymore.
Whereas without the tool, the content could still be more challenging.

-Mathematical Rant- TL/DR: A tool will inherently mean the game is designed at a low enough level a majority of players would not need the tool

I have a bachelors in Mathematics. I assure you there are plenty of geometry tests I have taken that were difficult and did not require a calculator. To that extent, there were test that if someone unfamiliar with the concepts were given a calculator, they would still fail. I tried to dissuade you from using mathematics as an example, but you insist on doing so.

You can be tested on knowledge and skill, which rarely if ever requires a calculator. Those tests given to individuals without the knowledge and skill will fail even with programmable calculators. Because the calculator can only quantify input, it can't understand the subject matter. Which, to your point with the tracker, makes the tracker a tool that is used inherently to do something the tool doesn't understand. So users that don't understand it, as you have pointed out, will fail to use it properly.

You can also be tested on "do you know how to use your calculator" which is pretty much any test in mathematics before algebra. That being said, you can still be tested on your knowledge in algebra from beginner to geometric algebra or abstract algebra without ever requiring a calculator.

Tests given after high school, and high school equivalent math classes, are not tests designed for you to show how well you manipulate a calculator. Lower level math classes however are designed for you to use your tool. Because it allows for standardized testing with quantitative and comparable results across demographics.

If IS designs encounters specifically due to the implementation of a tracker, than I could say based on your example and my familiarity with it, that the content was made easy to understand so everyone could use the tool and be comparably equal. In which case, the content will be stagnate, require less base understanding of the game, and repetitive.

@noaani, if you were insisting on the usage of Applied Mathematics or Physics my rant would be baseless. That said, your statement of "higher level math classes are..." would apply. Because a vast majority of people can't sit down, open a physics book for the first time, and just start accurately answering every question.

A raid only needs a few people that can wrap their heads around what is going on (one is technically enough). Once this one person understands, then the raid as a whole understands. However, since the kind of person that enjoys top end raiding also enjoys this kind of problem solving, more than half of every raid guild I have been a part of (even more casual guilds) have been keen problem solvers.

The rest of the raid may not fully grasp the details of what the encounter is doing, but they still have a solid appreciation that they themselves have far more to do on such encounters than they do on the more mundane encounters.

Basically, one person needs to fully grasp what is going on, then everyone can enjoy the greater variety. At that point it is up to the individuals in the raid to perform their specific task (which is usually not something that a combat tracker can assist with) in order for the raid to be a success.

If Intrepid want there to be encounters that players aspire to being able to kill, where is the block that is stopping them coming from? It cant be gear, because players already aspire to get better gear. The ONLY other mechanism that has worked in ANY mmo that I am aware of is encounter complexity.

If only one person per class needed to understand the concepts in applied mathematics in order for the whole class to understand, I'd wager there would be a lot more people in fields where this is required.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

Raids already do this.

No. What raids do is dictate your build.

Dygz

Azathoth wrote: »

To me this sounds a bit weird. You want the content to be difficult, but you want a tool to make it easier for you. This is the equivalent of using cheat codes to play a game, and then telling all your buddies the game is "too easy" without explaining that you are using cheat codes.

My understanding is that noanni wants the combat to be so difficult that it can't be completed without proper analysis of the data from the combat trackers. If the average raid can figure out how to defeat the content without a combat tracker, then the content is too easy for top end raiders using a combat tracker.
That seems to be the concept.

Child Item