DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

consultant

Azathoth wrote: »

"Well lets say I want to run a more defensive set up. Well I would need to know how much dps it would cost me and how much extra defense I am getting in terms of hit points."
My response is a simple, if not slightly time consuming one. Play the game.

You don't "Have" to reverse engineer one, although you might 'want' to.

If I start a new game, and decide it's not for me because the mechanics I enjoy are not being utilized I make a choice:

A) Continue playing the game as it is, or
Find a game more suited to my play style.

I don't see why this isn't an option. There are many games I don't play because of this, and they all seem to do fine. There are many games I am still playing that are also doing fine. Ashes will obviously lose market space on the PvP only crowd and the PvE only crowd, so I'm not seeing where this potential loss of players is going to greatly effect their overall projections (assuming they have them).
Ashes is a niche game being a PvX that doesn't have full loot, PvE safe zones, and uses corruption as a 'punishment-like' deterrent to unwanted PvP.

Since when does every game released have to match everyone's play style?

"For competative pvp it is pretty much a must have ...Not the dps meter the information is a must have."
But there are so many games designed specifically for competitive PvP, which will likely all do it better than Ashes since Ashes is a PvX. So why wouldn't they play there for competitive PvP and play Ashes for different reasons?

Who knows, maybe Ashes will be such an awesome game some players might be willing to step outside their norm/comfort-zone and just enjoy it. PvX is not my style, but I am totally planning on embracing it because that is the type of game Ashes is, and I want to play Ashes.

PLAYING the game is this which is :

Get a reference point like a warrior to attack you. Record all the data with out dps meter or combat tracker rinse and repeat for all your set ups. Scenerio stated was in pvp not pve so since they are so many varialbles like item levels, gear, setups, not to mention skill. Not really to useful to analyze data while PVPing.
Know what you mean the proof is in the pudding plus it would be wise to do live test of set up. But not really possible to do live test with out data analyzer.

So real in game solution is to duel some one but not really duel cause they have to have the same gear and set up every time and if you were testing out defensive set you would just have to die to see how much longer you will last with defensive set vs offensive set. In short long and boring process.

Blackhearted

noaani wrote: »

While this is sort of true (raids can hand players items that need to be used during encounters that are GCD independent), it isn't the combat system that determines raid difficulty - it is what the encounter asks of the players outside of the combat system.

If you are in an encounter - any encounter - and for the entire duration of that encounter you chain class based abilities as fast as the GCD allows, you are fighting entry level raid content.

Gcd and ticks are a time unit within game that limit actions, and a game can only ask player to complete every tick perfectly.
Perfection also means you know when to use those ticks on dps and when on survival or other mechanics.

That is the skill cap. When you add QoL tools like ACTs the maximum difficulty level drops as the tool is telling you how to max dps and survival.
The difficulty level goes from figuring out optimal damage and survival and compensating that with mechanical skill and intelligence into following optimized rotations and skill priorities as weaknesses and everything else is readable from the tracker.

Thus the tracker can not increase difficulty cap and makes the highest difficulty cap easier to reach.

Azathoth

If it's a long and boring process, don't do it. That doesn't mean IS should include a short cut for it. Just because a player wants to do something in a game, that doesn't mean the game has to provide that thing. Assuming it does is somewhat of a spoiled point of view. In that many games that have come before has spoiled players.

Noaani

blackhearted wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

While this is sort of true (raids can hand players items that need to be used during encounters that are GCD independent), it isn't the combat system that determines raid difficulty - it is what the encounter asks of the players outside of the combat system.

If you are in an encounter - any encounter - and for the entire duration of that encounter you chain class based abilities as fast as the GCD allows, you are fighting entry level raid content.

Gcd and ticks are a time unit within game that limit actions, and a game can only ask player to complete every tick perfectly.
Perfection also means you know when to use those ticks on dps and when on survival or other mechanics.

That is the skill cap. When you add QoL tools like ACTs the maximum difficulty level drops as the tool is telling you how to max dps and survival.
The difficulty level goes from figuring out optimal damage and survival and compensating that with mechanical skill and intelligence into following optimized rotations and skill priorities as weaknesses and everything else is readable from the tracker.

Thus the tracker can not increase difficulty cap and makes the highest difficulty cap easier to reach.

The GCD can be looked at as the skill cap of a very simple combat system, but raids can ask more of players than just using the combat system.

A very simple but very basic example here is jousting. It is not a part of a the combat system, yet it is a very basic action that raids should be able to perform.

However, it can get far more complex than that - look at Poets Palace in EQ2 as an example of an encounter asking things of players that are not within the perview of the combat system, and thus the skill required for the encounter is not at all tied to the GCD.

Blackhearted

I see gcd as only a limiting time unit within game, but maybe I can see it different because Ive been playing around with ticks in rs for ages.

The fact still remains that games have internal timers that restrict the amount of actions a player can execute.
Even if there are things outside of gcd the limit still remains as you have limited options you can execute per time frame.

I already included survival and other mechanics to be within perfect execution.

Noaani

blackhearted wrote: »

I see gcd as only a limiting time unit within game, but maybe I can see it different because Ive been playing around with ticks in rs for ages.

The fact still remains that games have internal timers that restrict the amount of actions a player can execute.
Even if there are things outside of gcd the limit still remains as you have limited options you can execute per time frame.

I already included survival and other mechanics to be within perfect execution.

I'll try thus another way.

GCD is only the limiting factor in encounters that function as DPS checks. If there is no DPS check, there is no need to bottom out the GCD. I've never seen or heard of an encounter that is actually both hard and a pure DPS check.

The mastering of your classes combat system (which includes the GCD) is not the skill cap in terms of high end raid content. If anything, it is the skill floor. You are expected to have this mastered at a single group content level so that when you vet to raids you are able to focus on encounter specific tasks and mechanics - and it is the mastering of these that arethe skill cap on raids.

If you have only ever made use of your classes abilities on raids, it tells me one of two things. Either you have never past entry level raid content, or your raid leader has never had faith in your ability to get shit done that needs to be done and so has always charged others in the raids you have been on with dealing with the encounter specific challenges.

Blackhearted

The game has a time unit limiting actions you can do per second. You reach maximum skill cap when you use every limiting time unit the best way possible.

Perfect execution can sometimes show as dps but is not isolated to combat mechanics or dps.
It means perfectly prioritizing the limiting time units to maximize the effects for your advantage.

I dont know how I can make the explanation more simple than that, maybe you can tell me how you see core mechanics so I can explain it in a way youre accustomed to.

Noaani

blackhearted wrote: »

The game has a time unit limiting actions you can do per second. You reach maximum skill cap when you use every limiting time unit the best way possible.

Perfect execution can sometimes show as dps but is not isolated to combat mechanics or dps.
It means perfectly prioritizing the limiting time units to maximize the effects for your advantage.

I dont know how I can make the explanation more simple than that, maybe you can tell me how you see core mechanics so I can explain it in a way youre accustomed to.

You don't need to explain anything, I know exactly what you are saying.

Yes, you can't do more than what the GCD allows for, and if you cast the exact right skill at the exact right time, then you are maximizing the potential your character has in relation to the core mechanic.

The thing that isn't being understood here is that you don't seem to understand that this isn't what raid encounters are asking of raids.

Most top end raids have a mechanic in them that is specific to that raid. It is usually made up of smaller individual mechanics that together form a specific situation that players need to deal with.

This is where the challenge from raid content happens - not in the raid members ability to maximize the core mechanics of their class.

Yes, there is an expectation on raids that people are able to master the core mechanics of the game - but that is an expectation at the entry level of raiding, not at the top end of raiding.

Azathoth

If the goal isn't to make sure that everyone in top-tier max-level raids is maximizing the core mechanics of their class, then a tracker would only be used as a measure to script a combat and run through it rehearsed. As opposed to taking it on and depending on everyone's ability within their class. This is really the only reason I have for agreeing with IS to not implement a tracker.

consultant

Pretty long and boring process with dps meter cause of so many setups even more so with out. I speak from experience. I can spend 2 hours easy just testing things out. Sometimes even up to eight hours.

So do not think people will want to spend even one hour testing things out. Especially with out dps meter or combat tracker.

I have even done it by writing numbers down on a sheet of paper to figure out averages and see if buff ability is working right. Really boring.

But who wants to do that. Takes same amount of skill to complete a raid with or with out dps meter. Not sure if you are refering to addons that tell what is going on in a fight.

Dps meters and combat trackers do not oppose skill. do not see how they are related.

No point in using dps meter during the dungeoun or raid should already know what set up you are going to use before you go in. Unless you are doing a live run to test out set up.

Besides the reason IS does not want to put dps meters is toxic levels nothing to with a measure to script combat and run through it rehearsed.

Besides that the example that I stated was competative PvP not raiding or doing dungeouns. Doing defensive setup in dungeouns and raids and doing less dps not a big deal.

But huge deal in PvP So really your entire post as far as responding to mine is not relevant.

As for running through it rehearresed well unless it is your first time and do not have a plan then it will be rehearsed. Matter of fact raids go better when they are rehearsed but ounce againd not talking about raiding but PvP so....sounds kind of good but does not hold any water.

Noaani

Azathoth wrote: »

If the goal isn't to make sure that everyone in top-tier max-level raids is maximizing the core mechanics of their class, then a tracker would only be used as a measure to script a combat and run through it rehearsed. As opposed to taking it on and depending on everyone's ability within their class. This is really the only reason I have for agreeing with IS to not implement a tracker.

But the only way to know you are maximizing the core mechanics of your class is by using a tracker.

Just because it is expected that people have put the time and effort in before the raid starts, that doesn't diminish how important a tracker is to that effort.

Further, a tracker during an encounter can often tell you how well you are executing the specific mechanics of the encounter - though this obviously depends 100% on what those mechanics actually are. This is on top of using a combat tracker to figure out what those mechanics are in the first place - again 100% dependent on what those mechanics are.

I know I've said this before, but during an encounter a combat tracker allows the raid designer to place all the puzzle pieces upside down and then leave it to the players use the tracker to turn them over before they take on the puzzle. Without a tracker, the developer has to have big casting animations and statments of intent from the encounters themselves.

This is literally starting the encounter with the pieces facing up.

And lets not get in to how it changes the feel of an encounter when the enemy declares when they are about to use their biggest move - it comes across as a cartoon encounter.

Azathoth

You said:
"Most top end raids have a mechanic in them that is specific to that raid. It is usually made up of smaller individual mechanics that together form a specific situation that players need to deal with.

This is where the challenge from raid content happens - not in the raid members ability to maximize the core mechanics of their class."

So if a top-end raids do not rely on the ability of players to maximize the core mechanics of their class, then a tracer's purpose becomes prescribing scripts for the group based on a single attempt. Thus allowing players to defeat the content using a script, and not skill. Again, since top-end content shouldn't rely on the ability to maximize class mechanics.

Now, your comment was relative to GCD and such, but a tracker tells you when you can use those, right?
Like a tracker could tell you how often to use an ability based on all the other abilities GCD's that have already been used.

Your comment was also not referring to boss mechanics specifically, which I believe most of our conversation has been relative to. In that I thought, for most of our interactions here, that when encounters were mentioned they referred to boss encounters. I don't think that matters because a tracker could script a whole dungeon for players.

So then the challenge is defeated by producing, and then following, a script. Which inherently makes any content, from simple to incredibly complex, easier. Which then prompts the players that use said tracker to ask for more difficult content.

In the aspect that Ashes, as of now, likely won't produce one then the players that truly desire such a thing will use one themselves. Thus making the content easier on themselves against the intent of Ashes (not EUA or knowledge, just intent) not having one. So those players would ask for harder content.

IS, unable to determine if players not using a tracker or using a tracker are the ones looking for more difficult content are then in a particularly odd situation. They can make content harder, possibly upsetting their players that aren't going outside of Ashes to make the game easier on themselves. Or not make the game more difficult potentially upsetting players that, again, aren't using content outside of Ashes to make the game easier but genuinely believe the content is too easy.

The answer isn't simply to include a tracker either. Because including one that doesn't allow combat scripting, thus limiting its use to personal development, will be met with some backlash and players seeking outside trackers anyways. If one is included that has all the desired bells & whistles then Ashes is back to my other scenario where they have to continue to make content harder hoping their players both use and understand their tracker. Designing future content around their tracker, and not their player's inherent skill with the game.

I see the introduction of trackers to MMO's in general as a net loss for players and developers. That's my opinion though. However, this point has brought us back to the first page.

Noaani

Azathoth wrote: »

So if a top-end raids do not rely on the ability of players to maximize the core mechanics of their class, then a tracer's purpose becomes prescribing scripts for the group based on a single attempt. Thus allowing players to defeat the content using a script, and not skill. Again, since top-end content shouldn't rely on the ability to maximize class mechanics.

I'm going to reply to this post in two parts, this is the general reply to the post, and following is a reply to one specific comment.

---

Trackers don't prescribe anything at all.

Players are always notified of abilities that encounters are about to use that require preparation or a specific counter. They have to be. You can't counter an ability if you don't know about it until after it is cast.

I have only ever come across three notification methods in my 15+ years of raiding.

First, and most boring, is a visual notification. This could include things like a big red circle on the ground, or may be the encounter starts a specific casting animation. In some games (shit games) there is an actual casting bar in the encounters name plate telling you what they are casting.

The second method is audio based. The encounter could simply say "I am now casting my big AE" (perhaps with more flavor than that though).

The third is to do none of these, hand players a whole whackton of data, and let them figure out what the trigger of the encounter is and set up their own notification for it.

One of these three methods NEEDS to be used on every single ability that the raid as a whole needs to know about, so AE's stuns etc. If the ability needs preparation rather than reaction, players NEED to have one of these notifications happen.

Now, obviously I am arguing the merits of the third of these notification systems. However, I am in no way saying that the other two shouldn't also exist in Ashes. As a simple example, if entry level raid content requires players to figure out encounters, decide what it is they think is triggering an ability and then also decide what they think the best thing for them to do to counter that ability - then I would argue that they are not participating in entry level raid content at all.

Basically, if the warning is built in to the encounter, all you need to do is decide what action to take the next time the raid encounter does the thing that tells you it is about to do the other thing. This is a puzzle where the pieces are facing the right way.

However, if you have an encounter that offers no suggestion he is about to cast a 30 second AE stun, you really need to put some time and effort in to working out what it is that is causing that stun, so that you can then work out how to develop your own notification trigger, and it is only at this point that you have turned the puzzle pieces up the right way and are now at the same point you would be if the encounter used either of the other notification systems - though that is assuming you have the trigger condition correct.

To me, the first two notification systems are the ones where things are automated and boring, and the last one - the one that requires a combat tracker - is the one where players need to actually think about things (often for weeks).

Noaani

Azathoth wrote: »

Because including one that doesn't allow combat scripting, thus limiting its use to personal development.

I've never seen nor used a combat tracker that has any form of scripting other than the script it uses internally.

Nor would I.

Nor would I group with anyone that did.

Nor would I even be friends with anyone that did.

Third party combat trackers don't even interact with the game directly at all. The take data from a txt file that the game creates, and the ONLY way to get anything back in to the game is via the copy/paste function of your operating system.

The scripting involved with a combat tracker is the actual use of the combat tracker. A combat tracker just skims over potentially hundreds of lines of data a second, but only stops to read lines if it recognizes a specific line that you have told it to recognize.

When it reads this line, it only does what you tell it to do, and what it can do is limited to offering up some form of noise (a beep, an alarm or text-to-speech). It is still up to the player to do what they feel is the right thing to do with that alarm, but that alarm from the tracker going off is no different to when the encounter in game tells you that it is about to cast it's AE.

The only difference is that without the tracker, the game tells you that the AE is coming without fail. With the combat tracker, you need to figure out what triggers the AE, set up the tracker to give you the notification when that condition is met, and then hope that you got it right.

Blackhearted

Not being able to maximize performance without combat tracker, would mean u need to compensate that somehow.
This would leave build creation as a variable for creating harder content.

Leaving tracker out doesnt mean devs need to leave puzzles out, it just means that players need to be smarter.

Leaving tracker out doesnt mean bosses have to have big slow animations either. That is just another variable they can alter to make content as hard as possible.

They have mentioned having hard content in the game and so it would make sense to leave trackers out. The game would actually have the possibility to have content only the very best can complete.
Requiring you to have perfect execution without the aid of a tracker, forcing you to possibly outsmart the devs.

Raiding guilds would also gain the possibility to have secrets on how to kill certain encounters, which is great mmorpg content.

Noaani

blackhearted wrote: »

Not being able to maximize performance without combat tracker, would mean u need to compensate that somehow.

No it doesn't.

It means you are playing a game that has developers good enough at their job to be able to develop raid content that doesn't always need artificial time limits put on it.

In a typical encounter where the raid DPS's the boss down for a bit, then all runs over there to do a thing, then comes back to DPS the boss a bit more, the "run over there to do a thing" is more important than the DPS. If the raid is going to fail, they will fail in that same bit. If the developers are clueless/lazy and put DPS check on the encounter (DPS check encounters are fine, but you only need to test a raids DPS once per zone and it can literally be on the first trash mob), then chances are the part that will fail is the running back in to place.

Standing there attacking a mob endlessly is neither hard nor fun.

Blackhearted

Having an encounter that requires maximal class performance would mean you need to find a way to bypass the punishing mechanics.
You would need to find the optimal build, find a way to break those mechanics or surpass other difficulty variables designed for the encounter in order to beat it.

You can also count running out of resources as a dps check. I doubt anyone else than u even thinks of standing still dpsing.

Noaani

blackhearted wrote: »

You can also count running out of resources as a dps check.

If an encounter is designed in a way where resources are likely to run out, and making sure they don't is the key to success, then that would be a resource management check.

If that isn't what the key to the encounter is, but players are still running out of resources, then that is just a shit raid.

Blackhearted

Or you could do enough damage and finish the encounter before running out of mana?

The difficulties are relative to eachother. Thats why you can prevail by surpassing other difficulty variables.
.

Noaani

blackhearted wrote: »

Or you could do enough damage and finish the encounter before running out of mana?

The difficulties are relative to eachother. Thats why you can prevail by surpassing other difficulty variables.
.

If an encounter is designed to be a DPS check, but running out of resources is a real threat, then jt is badly designed as a DPS check. If an encounter is designed as a resource management check, but can be beaten by increasing DPS, then it is a bad resource management check.

Any encounter that is supposed to be a challenge for the stage your raid is at shouldn't be able to be beaten by just out DPS'ing the mechanics like that.

I would hope the raid content designers at Intrepid are better than that.

Child Item