Exp loss upon PvE death

Currently I am playing ffxiv eso.
I have played tera and bdo, and I must say I find death in mmorpgs these days extremelly meh.....

Back in 2003-2009 that I was playing Line][Age gaining 4% of a Level was about 2h solid exp in mid levels, 2 days xp in near high lvs and a week of xp in 78lv.

Upon death there was a good chance to drop inventory items and a rare chance to drop PRECIOUS equiped gear.
Needless to say that some areas that offered good xp, mats/part and loot were difficult to reach on a small group of 3-4 ppl and wiping was dreaded.

At high levels if a group wiped the guild would have to send a group escorting a healer to rez us in order to receive full XP back.

In most mmorpgs now there is no xp loss,
1) you can mount and reach an area in two minutes (or use GF and go to an instance in a few minutes)
2) auto rez on the spot
3) teleport back to the location in the blink of an eye.

I honestly feel sleepy playing most mmorpgs now.

I never liked features such a death penatly (debuffs for X amount of time) but the fear of losing XP and having to make my way back in the location I was made adventuring and exploration SO GOOD. Not too keen on being afraid to lose gear upon death.

What does the community think about loss of exp upon death?

****** please understand the concept and then participate in convo. Also understand what game AoC is trying to become. Did not expect this to be such a heated topic.*****

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Comments

Wandering Mist

Azathoth wrote: »

But if you fail the exam, your overall score in whatever is most likely decreased. But you didn't mention the lowering of an average grade due to failing the test because it's part of failing the test.

Your example would be failing the test and then that score not mattering at all to your overall performance, which would make trying to take the test pointless. There would be no reason to make effort.

Sigh, I tried to choose a simple example to illustrate my point, and you have decided to complicate it unnecessarily. Oh well. Just because failing a test doesn't affect your overall performance doesn't make the test pointless, because you still want/need to pass that test.

My point is that there are already natural consequences for failing in an mmorpg (your character dies). Adding additional punishments and penalties onto that just for the sake of it is pointless. Think of it this way. If you are in a raid fighting the boss and your team fails, you die and don't kill the boss. If it is a linear raid (as most raids are), you won't be able to move on until you beat that boss. Do you need more penalties than that?

insomnia

Some of us actualy have a life that dosen't involve playing a game constantly. I think all these hardcore elements are for people that have nothing better to do.
How many times haven't people died due to issues you weren't in control of, like lag. Or the game crashes and when you log back in, you are dead

Azathoth

I am a super causal 3-6hr a week gamer.
I do not consider a death penalty as punishment. It's there to encourage you to try harder and not take the easy way out because its only a 3-minute walk back.

What is the consequence of failing if there are no penalties. A dead character that doesn't have a penalty or item loss or item degradation or any of the other penalties any game uses suffers no consequence.

If you need to reclaim the body then maybe you have to add 3 more minutes of gameplay. That's not a consequence, that's getting lost.

Wandering Mist

Azathoth wrote: »

I am a super causal 3-6hr a week gamer.
I do not consider a death penalty as punishment. It's there to encourage you to try harder and not take the easy way out because its only a 3-minute walk back.

What is the consequence of failing if there are no penalties. A dead character that doesn't have a penalty or item loss or item degradation or any of the other penalties any game uses suffers no consequence.

If you need to reclaim the body then maybe you have to add 3 more minutes of gameplay. That's not a consequence, that's getting lost.

That is a very old-school approach and isn't always necessary in a game. I know it's a different genre but consider a game like Super Meat Boy, arguably one of the hardest platform games ever created, and yet there is no death penalty at all. There are no lives, and when you die all that happens is you start the level again (the levels are so short that this is rarely an issue).

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/119093/Super_Meat_Boys_McMillen_Explains_Why_So_Hard.php

This is a wonderful article on the subject written by the creator of Super Meat Boy.

Going back to mmorpgs, as I said before the death penalties need to have a purpose. For example, in Albion Online you only lose your equipment on death in Red and Black zones. This plays into the risk-reward aspect of the game. The Red and Black zones contain greater rewards to players who survive them, with the greater risk of losing all your items if you die.

In Dark Souls games, players lose all their souls upon death (souls are used as exp to level up your character). The trick is you can only level up your character at bonfires that are placed in specific points in the level. When you use a bonfire it respawns all the monsters in that zone. If a player is in the middle of 2 bonfire locations and is low on healing items they have 2 choices:

1. Go back to the previous bonfire to heal and use the souls they have collected then have to fight through all the monsters again
2. Press onwards to the next bonfire and risk losing all the souls they have collected if they die

That is again the risk-reward aspect talked about in the article. The point I'm making is that it's not just about the death penalty, but how the penalty interacts with the rest of the game mechanics. I don't believe that putting exp loss into a game like Ashes would have any purpose other than frustrating players.

Azathoth

I would consider gaining an xp deficit and having my stats reduced the risk, versus the reward of claimed xp and loot while adventuring.

In all honesty I would rather bein a position to have to gain more xp to level than lose all my gear.

In Dark Souls if you can't reclaim your souls and die again the penalty is time spent grinding or potentially being out leveled by an area. That is a particular type of risk for that game.

As for the platformer. To me it sounds like the method is try and try and try again until you get it. Then congrats you finally got it.

Is this really what you want all content in Ashes to be reduced to? For me this would make all PvE aspects of the game an endless trial by error without any consequences.

Usually I can find a point to agree with and simply suggest why I don't. That is not the case here.

Hopefully one day players that don't think failing should negatively effect their character can find an awesome RPG to play. Unfortunately, I hope that is not the case with Ashes.

Gizban

insomnia wrote: »

Some of us actualy have a life that dosen't involve playing a game constantly. I think all these hardcore elements are for people that have nothing better to do.

RPGs require a time investment, they always have. A mobile game may be better suited to your gaming style.

insomnia

pyreal wrote: »

insomnia wrote: »

Some of us actualy have a life that dosen't involve playing a game constantly. I think all these hardcore elements are for people that have nothing better to do.

RPGs require a time investment, they always have. A mobile game may be better suited to your gaming style.

That is a stupid comment. I can only assume you are a troll. So just because i don't want to spend several days, just to progress a little, i should go to a cash grap, shitty game. Maybe you need to get a life, besides playing games. Maybe you should go play single player games, where you can increase the difficulty

The constant dying in games adds up. So if it xp loss, gear lost etc. or just time. It all adds up in the end

Gizban

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Just because failing a test doesn't affect your overall performance doesn't make the test pointless, because you still want/need to pass that test.

That sounds like a participation award.

You don't pass a driving test when you get back to the testing office if you run over three old ladies and two school children on the way. Just because you got to the 'finish line' doesn't make you a winner.

Wandering Mist wrote: »

My point is that there are already natural consequences for failing in an mmorpg (your character dies). Adding additional punishments and penalties onto that just for the sake of it is pointless. Think of it this way. If you are in a raid fighting the boss and your team fails, you die and don't kill the boss. If it is a linear raid (as most raids are), you won't be able to move on until you beat that boss. Do you need more penalties than that?

The character death is the cause of the penalty.

You tell Johnny not to hit the cat.
Johnny hits the cat anyway.
Cat bites Johnny.

The Cat bit Johnny because Johnny HIT the cat, the fact that Johnny disobeyed is a separate issue which requires resolving.

Your character (Johnny) dies because you aren't doing something right. Your actions caused the death (a bite), now you have to receive the penalty.

StreetCornerPoet

I don't mind accruing XP debt for dying. I do hate loosing levels and hope that does not happen.

I'm on the fence about a debuff from dying depending on how bad the first debuff is and how hard the debuff is to work off. It is bad enough without fast travel and having to run back to an area I might be leveling/questing in and having a patrol or something kill me, then not being able to do quests my level, and having to go poach mobs like 5 levels under me from people trying to level. If the debuff is severe enough it doesn't just penalize you, but penalizes everyone in a lower level area as higher characters have to come down and work off their debuffs by grinding lower level mobs.

If the first debuff is just a slap on the wrist and instead of being able to take like 3 mobs I have to take 1 or 2 for a bit, for instance, it might be ok.

unknownsystemerror

@StreetCornerPoet There is no deleveling from dying. Say you just hit level 32. You die. You will incur an exp debt depending on your flagging state at the time. You will stay level 32, but have negative exp to work off to get back to earning regular exp towards 33. <speculation> The stat reduction will most likely scale with the amount of negative exp. Keep jumping off that cliff for shits and giggles and eventually you will be level 32 with the hit power of a level 1 character. Going to have to go back to a portal starter zone and kill their version of bunnies and pigs. A single death or a couple might not impact you that much. Do stupid shit, pay the timesink.

MrPancake

I really can not understand people who say there shouldn't be ANY loss upon death.

Blackhearted

Whats the penalty when ure max lv?

Im just thinking that if there are open world world bosses and raids, the death count could add up.
Will these be instanced then?

I loved runescape when u still lost ur stuff when u died. The system was supporting the idea of risk vs reward.
The system also gave u the possibility to choose the gear ure willing to lose. I hope ashes would have something similar to this through resource management.

@insomnia remember that ure supposed to have fun when ure levelling up. Try to enjoy the journey.

Wandering Mist

pyreal wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Just because failing a test doesn't affect your overall performance doesn't make the test pointless, because you still want/need to pass that test.

That sounds like a participation award.

You don't pass a driving test when you get back to the testing office if you run over three old ladies and two school children on the way. Just because you got to the 'finish line' doesn't make you a winner.

Wandering Mist wrote: »

My point is that there are already natural consequences for failing in an mmorpg (your character dies). Adding additional punishments and penalties onto that just for the sake of it is pointless. Think of it this way. If you are in a raid fighting the boss and your team fails, you die and don't kill the boss. If it is a linear raid (as most raids are), you won't be able to move on until you beat that boss. Do you need more penalties than that?

The character death is the cause of the penalty.

You tell Johnny not to hit the cat.
Johnny hits the cat anyway.
Cat bites Johnny.

The Cat bit Johnny because Johnny HIT the cat, the fact that Johnny disobeyed is a separate issue which requires resolving.

Why? Isn't getting bitten punishment enough? Would added punishment make Johnny less likely to hit the cat in future?

Also the driving test example is perfect for my needs. In the UK a driving test is split into 2 parts - theory and practical. You take the theory test first and have to pass it in order to book your practical test. If you pass the theory test and then fail the practical test, you don't then have to do the theory test again. You just keep taking the practical test until you pass it.

Punishment for the sake of it is meaningless, in both real life and in video games. Any death penalties you put into the game need to be integrated into the other gameplay systems, to have some kind of purpose.

So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation?

unknownsystemerror

@blackhearted "What is the penalty for max level?" That is where stat reduction comes in. You will be trying the hardest content at that point presumably, so any reduction to your character's abilities would sting. In pvp situations, being level 50, but hitting like a lower level character would also be a factor. They have said they are looking at having reduced penalties for certain content. <speculation>My guess is that it would be the instanced dungeons and raids as these would be easier to keep people from using as low penalty zones in the open world to grief. They are also the content that people would die or "wipe" on most frequently while in a learning mode.

MrPancake

Wandering Mist wrote: »

So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation?

I think you really have to read what others have said multiple times already

George_Black

I think people are overreacting big time.
Some of the comments paint a picture of a player that dies in every 20 steps they take.

I never said that I want item drop, like Line][Age, for non corrupted state deaths (corrupted state is when a character goes around killing people that dont fight back).

As for the de-level, how many times are you planning to die, beside the fact that people suggested exp debt.

With this victimized attitude I dont see some people going far in the game AoC seems to be, least worry about xp debt upon death in high levels.

Is this what years of sterilized instanced dungeon runs have done to mmorpg players?

WizardTim

SoulsOnFire wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation?

I think you really have to read what others have said multiple times already

I don't think he does. I don't have to read everyone's response to know that maybe 10% of the people understand that death penalties are generally spankings that are administered for injuries sustained by ignoring advice.

Know the best and fastest way to teach an AI? It works for humans and dogs too, you ignore it for disobedience, reward it for mistakes (or exploring for dogs and kids), and reward it MORE for successes. This convinces the Intelligence to take risks, but always leads it back to seeking the most favorable results.

Know what the least effective methods are? Simple punishment for disobedience and mistakes, and reward for success. This stunts the growth of the Intelligence in question, forcing it to strictly stick to a singular path and discouraging it from trying new things, because any unknown can result in punishment while certain knowns will always result in reward.

Same concept applies to game theory and human behavior in games. If a player faces too much risk and loss for death, they won't pursue high risk adventures. Stacking too much penalty on PvP death in particular leads to players seeking zero or low risk scenarios and avoiding high risk ones. In games that rely on PvP (planetside for example), death penalty is all but non-existent. Interruption of play is actually a punishment in itself, and is punishment enough to drive up adrenaline.

Interruption of play is actually quite literally how puppies learn muscle control and restraint when biting each other in play. If one puppy bites the other too hard, the other puppy yelps and backs off, play comes to a stop, and the first puppy focuses more and more on avoiding that interruption. Humans can teach puppies and dogs to restrain themselves when biting by yelping and stopping whatever they are seeing as "play", because that's how they learned to adjust themselves when playing with litter mates. All intelligences learn by experimenting with options, and figuring out the most rewarding action with the least cost.

What Wanderingmist is asking is, how does experience loss/debt/whatever contribute to the play of the game? And don't respond with "it drives adrenaline!", no it doesn't. The only thing experience loss does is piss players off. Meanwhile, you have rewards for taking risks in PvP in the form of looting materials which, I'd hope, have significant value attached to them. Loss of this material is punishment for loss in PvP as well, and will be a loss on top of experience. Why should I go out and gather materials when the act of collecting materials is a high risk endeavor compared to killing and taking materials from other players/caravans? Every time I put my head down and gather mats from any node, I open myself to attack. If I, instead, choose to attack, I never open myself to attack and instead can freely attack those who do.

Where is the drive to gather mats? If I have to defend myself against a player, I flag myself for PvP and attacking me is a low risk endeavor. If I am flagged, and go gathering, I may as well paint a giant red target on my ass.

Azathoth

I like to think we are not dogs or children and can handle exp debt as a risk for adventuring.
Again, I am a casual with no more than 3-6 hours a week. Usually averaging 6-9 hours a month.

"So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation?"

To discourage reckless behavior, or behavior stemming from not being penalized when in over the characters level or player's current skill. To encourage players to explore other areas or back track*. To give a higher sense of accomplishment knowing that extra effort had to be put in to recoup loss after a failure. To give meaning to failing and death. To follow the general theme of risk vs reward.

*Back tracking can be good, those considering it punishment due to time constraints really do need to reconsider the types of games they invest in.

Honestly, asking for a respawn after dying without consequences might be a more traditional way of thinking about. Because not having consequences for failure in an RPG is for sure something I have never heard of before. Personally I am usually against tradition, but in this case the other option seems to make the game more boring.

-Is this area too much for my character to handle? Who cares, I'll just respawn.
-Is that other character too strong for me to challenge to PvP? Who cares, I'll just respawn.
-Is this legendary treasure worth risking death for? Yes! I'll just respawn.

Anyone that considers any outcome from a game as punishment has the option to avoid that punishment.

Also, as for not punishing disobedience.
Teaching children there are no consequences to their actions, I'll stop here. No need to go on a pointless rant about...

George_Black

Azathoth wrote: »

I like to think we are not dogs or children and can handle exp debt as a risk for adventuring.
Again, I am a casual with no more than 3-6 hours a week. Usually averaging 6-9 hours a month.

"So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation?"

To discourage reckless behavior, or behavior stemming from not being penalized when in over the characters level or player's current skill. To encourage players to explore other areas or back track*. To give a higher sense of accomplishment knowing that extra effort had to be put in to recoup loss after a failure. To give meaning to failing and death. To follow the general theme of risk vs reward.

*Back tracking can be good, those considering it punishment due to time constraints really do need to reconsider the types of games they invest in.

Honestly, asking for a respawn after dying without consequences might be a more traditional way of thinking about. Because not having consequences for failure in an RPG is for sure something I have never heard of before. Personally I am usually against tradition, but in this case the other option seems to make the game more boring.

-Is this area too much for my character to handle? Who cares, I'll just respawn.
-Is that other character too strong for me to challenge to PvP? Who cares, I'll just respawn.
-Is this legendary treasure worth risking death for? Yes! I'll just respawn.

Anyone that considers any outcome from a game as punishment has the option to avoid that punishment.

Also, as for not punishing disobedience.
Teaching children there are no consequences to their actions, I'll stop here. No need to go on a pointless rant about...

Why would you want to shape an mmorpg, a genre that requires commitment and a lot of time invested, when you can spare 6-9h a month? That is so selfish. In addition there are countless mmorpgs right now that are not that challenging, not to mention other types of games.

Noaani

pyreal wrote: »

The character death is the cause of the penalty.

You tell Johnny not to hit the cat.
Johnny hits the cat anyway.
Cat bites Johnny.

The Cat bit Johnny because Johnny HIT the cat, the fact that Johnny disobeyed is a separate issue which requires resolving.

Your character (Johnny) dies because you aren't doing something right. Your actions caused the death (a bite), now you have to receive the penalty.

This makes no sense outside of an Early Childhood setting.

Regardless of that, a better analogy would be if Johnny pet that cat wrong, not if he hit it. Most people know not to hit a cat - just as most MMO players know not to run in to the raid encounter solo. However, not all people know that the cat has an infected ear and doesn't like being touched on that side - just as not all MMO players know for sure whether their group is able to tackle the challenge they are setting out on.

In an MMO, developers want to encourage (or at least not discourage) players from attempting new things. A game could have all the content in the world, but if players are punished too hard for trying it, they simply won't try it.

No matter how much content a game has, no matter how good that content is, if players are too afraid to try it, they will simply play a different game.

And it isn't just content - it also works for builds. If there is a harsh death penalty, people won't be willing to try a new build - they will look up a build that someone else has said works, and they will follow it to minute detail.

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