Demographics and raiding

Well gents I made some posts about player development cause in some games the poeple that actually raid is very low. Lot less than half.
Some of that is due to instant que and toxicity and raid prep times plus other things I do not want to discuss.
But by the looks of it some of the ideas were not taken to well so I will just generalize in the following statement.

Really no reason for an average person that plays MMOs not to do entry level raid. So I would recommend to the Ashes of Creation do something about. The game is Actually looking pretty good as far as raiding is concerned but keep in mind that a lot of people are going to be coming from the world of instant que world which kind of lends itself to the I want it right now type of thinking.

Whatever is out there right now like websites that includes videos on how to do everything and forums that tell you basically how to do everything and wikis were you could look everything up. Plus any other thing that you can think of is not working.
So something actually needs to be implemented that encourages raiding.

So the point is with all the tools that players have a lot of toons still do not raid.

Lets say that the majority of the people are not raiding well then companies would be inclinedto create content that is tailored to them correct. In fact some would argue that since they make up the majority of the population content should be tailored to non-raiders. And this also has to do with casual gamers vs hardcore gamers. Which I also do not want to discuss.

So if anyone has any ideas to get people involved in raiding you could post them here or start your own threads.

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Comments

Noaani

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

The problem with catering your game to the hardcore chest thumpers is that they just don't put asses in the seats. Making dungeons and raids that only a small percentage of min/maxers can complete leads to the majority of your base being continually pissed off and migrating to other experiences. In a game with significant death penalties (and yes, they have said they will look at reducing those penalties in proximity to dungeon and raid content already) having a "Dark Souls" level of difficulty in finishing that content will only cater to that specific niche. Which leads to failure. Same on the full loot pvp, offline griefing side of things. Games like Wildstar billed themselves as "hardcore raiders only, noobs getgud or get out!" and failed. Albion Online has completely changed how they do things after finding out people wouldn't play their game and needed to go f2p. Atlas introduced survival mechanics to an "mmo" to try and mask the lack of actual content and failed miserably even having separate PVE and PVP servers. And Crowfail, the throne war simulator has pushed back release over and over once they found out in testing that people just don't like not having PVE things to do, so keep scope creeping themselves out of their "only hardcore pvpers need apply!" position. Steven looks to be trying to middle of the road Ashes. Asses in seats will be the goal vs niche play.

As someone accused of being a hardcore chest thumper (whether true or not), I actually agree.

To me, a good MMO needs to start right in the middle. It needs to produce a shitload of good, entertaining single group content that has a nice difficulty incline (not a strict incline though) built right in to it. As long as players have interesting group content variety to run, an MMO has a good chance at a stable player core.

From there though, that MMO needs to branch both up and down. Branch down with solo or duo based content, which provides those people running groups with something to do while waiting for a group, but is also the single best content type in an MMO to deliver intricate story details (nothing worse than running a group with a player that insists on stopping to admire the murals on the walls - though some games put a lot of lore detail in to such things and are well worth checking out when you aren't wasting other peoples time).

Having this solo content also encourages a different set of players to pick up your game - the solo centric player. Since you have already spent the time in making that solo content in the first place, it takes little additional effort from here to make that solo content it's own form of progression for this new set of players.

Now that your core group of group centric players have some content they can do when not in a group, a good developer is then able to give those players something to strive to above single group content.

This is where raid content comes in

Raid content is the best way to give players a valid sense of achievement. Killing the end mob of solo progression is all well and good, but 10,000 other players on your server have done that a well. However, killing the end mob of raid progression (something Ashes is likely to not have, which is why some people claim Ashes has no end game) is something that only two or three raids on your server will do.

Much like how adding solo content for the group centric core of your game will see your game attract a new set of players, adding in raid content will also attract a new set of players. From there, the good developer can do exactly what they did with the solo content - since they are already spending resources on it to give the core of their players something above group content, it isn't that much more work to make your raid content viable for this new set of players it attracts.

To me, an MMO is made up of many niche groups.

A good MMO needs its core of players whole mostly run group content, but it also needs it's solo players, it's raiders, it's crafters, it's lore aficionados, it's RP'ers, it's PvP'ers, and people dedicated to any other facets of the game you may add in (ships and politics, in Ashes case).

In my mind, no game should cater to any one of these groups over any other - even if I personally will use one specific portion of the content more than most, and other portions of it literally not at all.

All of these groups need content, systems and tools specifically for them, and the game as a whole is at it's best when all of these groups are at their best.

So yes, catering to the hardcore chest thumper is bad - unless you also cater to everyone else.

Shoklen

I believe a compartmentalization of the term "raiding" may help. A long with, what the Ashes will, and will not have to offer in that regard.

Raiding, are we talking about instanced, raid members only content?
Raiding, are we talking open world, and each encounter locks?
Raiding, are we talking open world, and unlocked encounters?
Raiding, open Cities?
Raiding, Castles and picking sides for the fight?
Raiding, in pure PvE sense, or more PvP sense?

In many games raiding was instanced and raid members only. I feel in Ashes, while there may be some of that going on, we will experience a far more "open" raiding feel; something fewer games have offered.

Just a thought on the subject.. I use to raid on a competitive level for a few years.. There is a lot of toxicity brought on by the players themselves, drama, ect.. but the game mechanics and design also hold a lot of that responsibility.

A lot of the team has experience with other past mmos, hopefully lessons were learned.

My 2 cents of course, and opinion.. Sorry I did not read everybody's reply above.. if I am far off topic just ignore..

consultant

Well think people that missing out raiding is a shame. Think more people could get involved in raiding and have a lot more fun. Plus think people do not kow how easy normal raiding is.

StreetCornerPoet

The problem is there isn't going to be a normal or hard mode raid. Most raids are not instanced, they are open world, so not only do you have to get a group together, you also have to try and wrangle any freelancers that decide to tag along, and you have to hope no corrupted players or enemy guilds show up to kick you out.

Also, there won't be fast travel, so no porting to the raid or the entrance. You have to group up and lead people that haven't been there before or those that get lost easily to the raid. Which adds time commitment.

Its not easy when you don't have full control of who is around because its not instanced.

That being said, I"m looking forward to raiding as well as RP and just exploring.

Some raids and dungeons will be instanced, but it seems the majority are going to be open.

consultant

Well there are some guild leaders that are professiionals at developing so if Ashes of Creation got with them they could make the path to raiding pretty clear and get information to every one.

As far why. Well let just say there are more people that wnat to raid than actually raid.
Most people do dungeouns. Well Raids are dungeouns that just take a little longer and take a little tiny bit more skill so in WoW terms if you do well in herioc dungeouns then you should do well in raids.

And What Noaani said about how not everyone is into xxxxxx basically saying it applies to everything well. First of all think dungeouns and raiding is the meat and patatoes of MMO. Second of all If someone is not involved in crafting well that is because they do not want too.

Proof is in the pudding you could go to chat channel right now and ask who would be interested in raid and lots of people would reply. One time a guild leader got tired of trying to teach veterans how to raid so he restarted with non raiders. So he was looking for people that normally did not raid filled up pretty fast.

Plus if lets say you have one raid spot open. What normally happens is guild leaders have to go through possible 5 to 10 people before finding a right fit. Not like guild leaders have a choice of over qualified raiders. Most of the time people get turned away for lack of skill.

One time I was in a guild that did nothing together would just get kicked even from normal dungeouns well one day I told them to do guild runs with 3 people so they woud not get kicked. As far as dps goes I carried them for a while cause I had normal raid gear. But pretty soon they were getting geared up doing herioc dungeouns and normal raiding and started doing herioc raiding all with out my help. So the one bit of information that they need to make it to herioc raiding was they could do guild runs with out a tank and healer with just 3 dps.

Really all I did is get the ball rolling and they did the rest.

Thing is raiding is different from other aspects of MMO cause besides dungeouns which everyone does most other activities are individual effort. Your posts do not even make sense. Crafting is a no skill activity.

Guessing there are going to be group quests but for the most part all other activites are solo for the most part and do nto require as much skill as raiding.

So lack of skill as far as raiding is concerned is an issue. Not just well every one does not raid. Not every one goes fishing either.

So just about everyone does dungeouns but entry level raid is a niche ability do not see how any one could say that. All people need is a little push and you got your self a decent raider.

Noaani

consultant wrote: »

Well there are some guild leaders that are professiionals at developing so if Ashes of Creation got with them they could make the path to raiding pretty clear and get information to every one.

As far why. Well let just say there are more people that wnat to raid than actually raid.
Most people do dungeouns. Well Raids are dungeouns that just take a little longer and take a little tiny bit more skill so in WoW terms if you do well in herioc dungeouns then you should do well in raids.

I'm not going to lie, this post is even more of a rambling mess than I am used to seeing.

I'm not even sure of the general thought behind it, let alone of where to begin in a response to it.

I'll try and reply though, as everything after this break 'seems' to be a reply to me.

And What Noaani said about how not everyone is into xxxxxx basically saying it applies to everything well. First of all think dungeouns and raiding is the meat and patatoes of MMO. Second of all If someone is not involved in crafting well that is because they do not want too.

What you say about someone not being interested in crafting because they do not want to is absolutely true.

However, the same applies to all aspects of the game.

Some people are not interested in soloing because they do not want to.

Some people are not interested grouping because they do not want to.

Some people are not interested raiding because they do not want to.

Some people are not interested house decorating because they do not want to.

Some people are not interested sailing because they do not want to.

Proof is in the pudding you could go to chat channel right now and ask who would be interested in raid and lots of people would reply. One time a guild leader got tired of trying to teach veterans how to raid so he restarted with non raiders. So he was looking for people that normally did not raid filled up pretty fast.

Without knowing how many people have not replied here, knowing how many have is worthless.

If you ask in chat and get 15 replies out of 100 people, then that is good. If you ask in chat and get 15 replies out of 1,000 people, then that isn't good.

Plus if lets say you have one raid spot open. What normally happens is guild leaders have to go through possible 5 to 10 people before finding a right fit. Not like guild leaders have a choice of over qualified raiders. Most of the time people get turned away for lack of skill.

Most people interested in raiding but not in a guild that raids won't join a guild based raid, because of two main reasons.

The first is that many guild based raids that have others join in usually have restrictions on loot. From the guild perspective this is fair enough, but from the individual coming in to fill that last spot, it isn't. Even if the guild advertises a fair system, when it comes down to it, if there is a really good shield drop, their main tank will get it.

The second is that most guilds that raid but are unable to fill out a raid themselves are probably not overly good at raiding. Better off not wasting your time/lockout on a raid that has a good chance of not being all that successful.

One time I was in a guild that did nothing together would just get kicked even from normal dungeouns well one day I told them to do guild runs with 3 people so they woud not get kicked. As far as dps goes I carried them for a while cause I had normal raid gear. But pretty soon they were getting geared up doing herioc dungeouns and normal raiding and started doing herioc raiding all with out my help. So the one bit of information that they need to make it to herioc raiding was they could do guild runs with out a tank and healer with just 3 dps.

Really all I did is get the ball rolling and they did the rest.

Cool story bro.

Pointless story, but cool.

I have stories about raids too.

Thing is raiding is different from other aspects of MMO cause besides dungeouns which everyone does most other activities are individual effort. Your posts do not even make sense. Crafting is a no skill activity.

Guessing there are going to be group quests but for the most part all other activites are solo for the most part and do nto require as much skill as raiding.

Not everyone that chooses to not raid does so because they can't. Also, not everyone that chooses to not raid in one game makes the same choice in all games.

People pick and chose different aspects of each game they play. Someone may really like the raid content in EQ2 or WoW, but then really like the crafting content in Archeage and so raid in EQ2 and/or WoW and not craft in either game, but then craft in Archeage but never raid at all in that game.

So lack of skill as far as raiding is concerned is an issue. Not just well every one does not raid. Not every one goes fishing either.

So just about everyone does dungeouns but entry level raid is a niche ability do not see how any one could say that. All people need is a little push and you got your self a decent raider.

Lack of skill isn't an issue in terms of raiding.

The skills needed to raid are easily learned.

What prevents most people from raiding regularly is the need to put aside a specific block of time each week. Literally any player that is able to put that same block of time aside and is interested in raiding (again, not every player wants to raid in every game), then it won't take long to have that player as a valued member of a raiding guild.

consultant

So how come there are more people want to get into a raid then there are raid spots.

You said skilla needed to raid are easily learned which is true, then how come raid leaders have to go through so many people to fill spots.

So if you went in your chat channel and asked who does not want to raid you would probably get verry little responses.

Most people want to raid. So how come they are not raiding

Could make posts on how to get people involved in every aspect of the game.

To say that a lot of people do not raid just because the do not car is just ridiculous.

In WoW expansion comes out people come back do their fill of dungeouns and raiding and then unsubb.
Large number of people.

They do not persay get their fill of fishing and crafting and then unsubb.

If there is solo content and some one is not involved in it it is because they do not want to.

But when a 16 man group is required then you have to find 15 other people to play with have to find a group to play with.

So Actually it is just the opposite People do not get involved in some other aspects of MMO cause they do not want to.

But Plenty of people out there they wnat to raid but do not. As A matter of face Raid Leaders have no shortage of people that wnat to raid. Never heard of a raid leader saying There are so many qualified people that could raid but cannot get them to raid cause they do not want to.

Think you are focusing on the exeptions not the rule and trying to make it look like it is true.

Wandering Mist

consultant wrote: »

So how come there are more people want to get into a raid then there are raid spots.

You said skilla needed to raid are easily learned which is true, then how come raid leaders have to go through so many people to fill spots.

So if you went in your chat channel and asked who does not want to raid you would probably get verry little responses.

Most people want to raid. So how come they are not raiding

Could make posts on how to get people involved in every aspect of the game.

To say that a lot of people do not raid just because the do not car is just ridiculous.

In WoW expansion comes out people come back do their fill of dungeouns and raiding and then unsubb.
Large number of people.

They do not persay get their fill of fishing and crafting and then unsubb.

If there is solo content and some one is not involved in it it is because they do not want to.

But when a 16 man group is required then you have to find 15 other people to play with have to find a group to play with.

So Actually it is just the opposite People do not get involved in some other aspects of MMO cause they do not want to.

But Plenty of people out there they wnat to raid but do not. As A matter of face Raid Leaders have no shortage of people that wnat to raid. Never heard of a raid leader saying There are so many qualified people that could raid but cannot get them to raid cause they do not want to.

Think you are focusing on the exeptions not the rule and trying to make it look like it is true.

I can only speak from personal experience here but I find a lot of people want to raid but can't for whatever reason. Either they can't make all the raid nights (which is crucial for good progression of harder content), or they don't have the mental aptitude for it.

The mental side of it is, in my opinion, more important than physical skill. When you are progression raiding your entire mindset has to change. You can't go into a new raid and expect to kill all the bosses in 1-2 attempts. It can take hundreds of attempts to get the fight mechanics down. A lot of people I knew want to raid but haven't got the correct mindset for it, and I've spent a great deal of time trying to teach people how to raid from a mental standpoint.

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