You're acting as if mmorpgs are even close to a popular genre. They aren't, and the majority or people who play them are veterans and adults. Tab targeting is easier, it makes it so you don't have to aim.
If you're getting wrist pain from using your mouse, I suggest you stop using the computer entirely.
No one is going to play through any mmorpg now because anyone who hasn't played the genre for decades thinks they're boring. Like I said before no new popular games are tab targeted because most people find it extremely boring and un engaging. People who argue against that like you have most likely played mmorpgs for decades.
Action combat is not buggy unless it's bad but its probably your internet connection. and not being able to rely on something aiming for you.
ONCE again I'm assuming you didn't read my post, tab targeting is very bad. If you want to grow the genre that is. If you're happy with having the genre slowly fade away into nothing because the already dwindling playerbase just hops from new release to new release then that's fine.
Intrepid wanted to grow the genre, how many growing blossoming games do you see that are tab targeted ? I'd love to have an example of that. Sorry If I seem a bit annoyed but the past 5 responses have not even read my posts and have had nothing to do with what I've said at all. You're just making excuses at this point, how are you going to assume always that action combat lags ? It's most likely just your connection. Probably your unwillingness to have to practice aiming with a mouse as well, seeing as you've made the rather.. outlandish excuse of your wrist being in serious pain..
If that is the truth I'd suggest a doctor because I'm certainly not one of those lol
Lag spikes are not a good argument behalf of tab -targeting. There are a lot of action based online games and somehow they have managed to deal with this problem...
TERA and Crowfall are for example MMORPGs, which has action combat in use. I really loved TERA's combat, but unfortunately the overall performance of the game is not that good. I have not tested Crowfall myself, but at least in latest videos the combat looks interesting and fun.
We have seen lately MOBA games influence in MMORPGs too. Albion online and Fractured for example has moba styled combat and it is one option where more games can move on. I do not say Ashes should follow that path, but maybe skillshots could be something to be concidered and borrowed.
I'm just confused as to where action combat is laggy. I haven't played mmos so possibly in that space but basically every other game has it down and it never lags.
Lag is mostly reliant on your internet connection and the servers, I don't see where this ties into game mechanics. If you're missing shots and blaming it on lag then I get it, but having only tab target to just make the genre even smaller and have ashes be another small mmorpg wouldn't be smart.
if you are considering having to pay attention and put effort into it is boring
My interest lies in use of skills, not mobility as I told you before. Of course I don't want to be forced to put in effort in a system I won't find much enjoyment with.
you're saying action combat is too hard and unreliable (it isn't )
1. Did I say it is too hard? I said it requires me to put my focus elsewhere than where I want to put it.
2. It is unreliable. Your comment is working against you, Steven even said himself in one of the livestreams (one from last year when they showed off mmo footage walking in mist I believe) that Action Combat is more difficult to pull off as a developer since it depends more on animations and movement systems and unless you get it perfect it can become unreliable. Especially when trying to make a hybrid system. He also said they would fall back to tab-target only if the system wouldn't work out as intended in the end. Not because tab-target necessarily is a billion times more popular, but because it is easier to develop, easier to balance, and less likely to turn out like a glitchy mess. That's why we're testing action combat in Apoc and not tab-target.
you're so unable to multitask that you can't kill an AI
Playing mmos you run around killing a billion low level mobs for level grind. I don't want to spend my time having to think about how I position my character for optimal dps and leveling speed during such simple and repetitive tasks like that. Again, mostly because I think manual aiming and positioning is not that interesting, but also because it's a waste of commitment. Those kind of mechanics are better suited for stuff like raid bosses. I'd rather have tab target where I can grind in spawn area by spamming my auto and dodge when needed while eating Doritos like the amazing super elite gamer that I am. Don't worry, you can have my autograph if you want.
if are lagging then you will not hit. I would suggest getting a better internet connection
lol alright first off, how do you not see the issue with this? Secondly, there's nothing wrong with my internet speed. Sometimes the game and servers just aren't feeling very well ya know, we all get sick sometimes. Could be 500 people firing aoe effects in the same 10x10 feet area while the server I'm connected to is located in the opposite part of the continent cause intrepid doesn't have Blizzard level resources so I'm in there with above preferred ping.
Probably not, no. And I'm fine with that. Innovating with a hybrid system is cool as long as it works smoothly and reliably. Then they can put tab on the skills that works better with that system such as healing and buffing.
Can you reply with something that even makes a little sense at all?
Let me put it this way, ignore everything I said above. Let's save ourselves the time spent writing these silly long arguments and just understand that action combat is not as fun for me and it's not as consistent, simple as that. The latter is a fact.
Edit: sorry nothing personal with the sarcastic comments but I haven't eaten so I guess I'm a lil grumpy hah and playing an mmo the way I enjoy it is a big subject for me. I respect your opinion but I guess I'm just old-fashioned.
Honestly after playing action combat mmo´s like WIldstar and Blade & Soul ( best action combat mmo so far ive seen, gameplay around it and engine etc not so great ) I cannot tolerate going back to pure tab targeted games... it just feels slow and boring combat wise, so long as they dont kill the game with hybrid action combat like ESO has i think it will be good to have mostly action with tab targeted abilities mechanics for healing and some abilities
Aww It's okay, I've been sour today too I think >.> I respect that you like tab target and can really understand your reasoning.
I honestly with the hybrid system was thinking of specifically taking a couple damage abilities that are tab targeted to make grinding easier ~ !
Thanks for the little talk though, It all comes down to preference anyway so people who argue for days and days just like different things and that's normal. If anything I said was really really rude just know I didn't mean it lol, just have a lot of things on my mind !
I honestly with the hybrid system was thinking of specifically taking a double damage abilities that are tab targeted to make grinding easier ~ !
I just read this is your first mmo, I am curious, since you don't have any bias from playing previous titles, do you have any suggestions for how they could solve the hitbox issue with action combat? (races that have a smaller or slimmer body are harder to hit etc.) I haven't seen a proper solution from Intrepid yet but I might have missed it.
Yea that's the issue with MMORPGs I guess compared to other games I think of. I think it just depends on how big and small the races can get. They could just make all the hitboxes the same size no matter what the character looks like but I think we'd have to see how great the size variation is, unless you already know about it !
What you're saying makes 0 sense at all, just adding action combat to a game won't make it impossibly hard.
I never said it would.
What i have said, several times, is that the ONLY factor that determknes how hqrd ANY game is, is the decision the developers make as to how hard the game should be.
Changing from tab target to action combat doesn't change the decision they have already made as to how hard the game should be.
I'll try and use simple words for you.
How hard a game is and what type of combat the game have are not connected to each other.
Both are decisions made independently of each other during the games development. You can have a very easy action combat game, a very hard action combat game, a very easy tab target game or a very hard tab target game.
Because all four are possible, you can NOT simply say switching from tabto action makes the game any harder, because the game is ONLY ever as hard as the developers want it to be, and they could make it as easy or as hard as they wanted it to be.
If Intrepid wanted to, they could make all action combat abalities AoE, make it so players only need to use three abilities qnd then make tab target combat more intricate than EQ2'S combat, where players need tk balance 20+ abilities in combat. Suddenly, action combat will be looked at as the easy build.
I don't know why you're simplifying your argument that makes no sense anyway. You still have no idea what you're talking about so I'll just stop responding. You're pretty much arguing with yourself because I never was talking about how difficult the game is. Oh well
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Because you don't understand simple concepts that others have no issue with.
I honestly don't believe you don't understand what I've been saying, as it is all really simple stuff.
All I can come up with is that you have no real argument against what I am saying, and so instead of admitting that you may be wrong, you are arguing that the argument I am putting forth makes no sense, despite others being able to follow just fine.
I'm putting this down to your clear lack of understanding of what a tab target system actually is (hint; it's more than a target method), and also to your clearly diminutive age.
There was an argument that tab target only attracts older mmo veterans when action combat appeals to younger newer audience and thus allows growth within the genre.
Perhaps Poko is referring to that argument.
I agree with your statement that tab target PvE can be made impossible just like action can.
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
There was an argument that tab target only attracts older mmo veterans when action combat appeals to younger newer audience and thus allows growth within the genre.
I've not seen any evidence that this would apply to MMO's.
I mean, sure, action based BR games are popular with kids, but is that because of the combat in them? Because of the fact that you can just join a match at any time? Because of the fact that the game mechanics are simple to grasp? Because of the fact that BR's lend themselves well to streaming? Because of the incredibly low system requirements of most BR's? Because of the lack of non-combat activities that younger people don't enjoy as much? Because most BR's are free?
To me, it is worth noting that there has never been a day where an action based MMO has been the most popular MMO. Sure, action games may be more popular, but not action based MMO's.
There are several possible arguments people could make as to why this is the case, but it can't be argued that this is, in actual fact, the case.
To me, the reason I think the above is the case is because of all the additional content in MMO's. Any given player may not craft, but they need to interact with the crafting system. You my not want to go to a specific zone, but you need to travel through it. You may want to take on a specific encounter, but you need to level up first.
I'm still not at all against the hybrid system Ashes is going to have, I quite like it actually. I am, however, against people that bash on any aspect of a game without understanding it, as many people that have never played a tab target based game seem to be doing in this thread.
From my experience, Tab Target is mostly about using some rotas and throwing some high cooldown abilities or debuffs into the mix at times. So often I end up using them at the beginning of a battle and then just use a macro and go AFK until the fight is over as nothing really happens while fighting bosses. Even their "special moves" behave like enhanced auto attacks
You've not played a good tab target based game, and in the ones you have played I would assume you've not played them to their end.
If you even mention the notion of a rotation in a game like EQ2, you'd be laughed out of any pick up group - let alone trying to automate a rotation.
Judging a tab target MMO's combat system on solo or group content (or even on raid content other than what is designed as the hardest content) is kind of like judging a CoD game based on it's single player campaign. Sure, both exist (usually), but they are not where the developer has opted to fully showcase the combat in each game genre.
Youre right, Ive never played any MMO to their end actually. The only one where I would say I could call myself a "Veteran" of is Elsword and.. Elsword is kind of a special one Id assume
I never played a MMO for more than 6 months, altough I often tried out pretty much anything a game had to offer. I did tank/took part in what was considered the strongest bosses at the time and did take part in PvP events. In this time I always found TT games kind of dull compared to AC ones
If youre saying I need to really get into the game to understand how engaging a TT game can be, then I totally have to agree with Poko that TT wont make MMOs more popular
I also took some time to "watch" some EQ2 gameplay. PvP as well as PvE
PvE looks like a staring contest for the most part - normal PvE and raids. Looks like youre just tanking autos while using skills. Got to admit, running around and using 30 diffrent skills looks more complex than what I was expecting but standing still and only using skills.. looks like I could play this game onehanded. Dont know. looks more like EQ checks than anything else
PvP is about the same. To be fair, they did do a lot of bunny hopping and running away and chasing. But Id assume that running away and chasing was just trying to kite a melee fighter. Oh and (Id assume RNG based?) CC, a lot of CC and the bunny hopping because bunny hopping? or does bunny hopping actually do something in EQ?
Dont want to insult this game for being boring or bad. Just certainly didnt help me understand anything. Its why Im asking
Got to admit, running around and using 30 diffrent skills looks more complex than what I was expecting
Here's the thing with tab target games - they aren't built for show. Things in a tab target game are ALWAYS more complex than the look, if something looks complex to you, then the realities of doing it are a whole other step above that. This is what people that enjoy a tab target game look for - there are far more complexities that are able to be built in to a game when you don't need to focus on aiming, and any good tab target game will build these complexities in.
I've said that before in this thread - part of the reason young people don't like tab target is because in order to understand what someone is showing you, you have to understand the whole game. If you don't understand the game, you don't understand what you are watching.
In an action game, you can press one button and your character makes some grandiose movement. It can look cool, but it is just looks. This means that action games will always look flashier if you are just watching them - and if all you go by is how a games combat looks, then action games will always come out on top.
Got to admit, running around and using 30 diffrent skills looks more complex than what I was expecting
Here's the thing with tab target games - they aren't built for show. Things in a tab target game are ALWAYS more complex than the look, if something looks complex to you, then the realities of doing it are a whole other step above that. This is what people that enjoy a tab target game look for - there are far more complexities that are able to be built in to a game when you don't need to focus on aiming, and any good tab target game will build these complexities in.
I've said that before in this thread - part of the reason young people don't like tab target is because in order to understand what someone is showing you, you have to understand the whole game. If you don't understand the game, you don't understand what you are watching.
In an action game, you can press one button and your character makes some grandiose movement. It can look cool, but it is just looks. This means that action games will always look flashier if you are just watching them - and if all you go by is how a games combat looks, then action games will always come out on top.
There are very, very, few people who break down games as thoroughly as I do.
I strongly prefer action combat.
Having 30 skills is a turn-off in and of itself. In order to play effectively, you'll typically need all 30 keybinds within reach of your fingers, meaning you'll need Q, E, R, F, G, B, V, C, Tab, Caps, 1, 2, 3, 4, all with shift+ctrl modifiers.
Most players hate that.
I'm not strictly opposed, but I think you can add a lot more complexity and strategy with fewer skills in an action combat game.
I love how noaani has been trying to argue against everyone who points out the flaws of the tab targeting Is it really too hard to admit that it's an outdated system? There's no need to make tab target sound like a real complex system and as if it's really more than just locking into a target -- now if you talk about the kind of gameplay that generally revolves around tab target, sure. But other than that, no. Simply put, it is a method that bypasses aiming.
As it has been stated, everything you do with tab target combat, you can do with action - but this time you will only need to aim --- and no, the focus won't be necessarily your aim. You just assume way too many things @noaani for instance the reason why people like to play MOBAs, FPS games and BRs isn't just because they offer 'quick fun' and simpler mechanics. They are popular because they offer things that no MMO to date could offer which is skill based combat -- and no, not 'just looks' but actual mechanics which seems to me that, ironically, you've been having hard time to grasp.
Of course, games that combine strategic gameplay (again, not necessarily tab target) with fast paced action gameplay will prevail over one or the other. The perfect example for this is League of Legends which is the most popular game of our time with freaking 8 million peak *daily* CONCURRENT players globally. The game is fully skilled based and you both need to 'understand the whole game' AND use your reflexes to succeed -- and one could argue that it more or less requires the same time investment that one needs to grasp most mechanics of MMORPGs (weeks, months, sometimes years depending on one's IQ level - unlike more action based games such as BRs and FPSs which *purely* focuses on your aim and one will need to improve his/her aiming skills more than trying to learn the mechanics) -- almost half of the people that come from different genres\games trying out LoL end up not touching the game ever again because they couldn't get the mechanics, making your 'time to learn' argument invalid, unless you said that only for FPSs and not all action based games.
As you've said, there are more to MMORPGs than just the combat -- in fact, one could argue that it is their weakest point. Even now, i can't think of a single MMORPG that put emphasis on combat other than GW2, BDO and to some extent Archeage -- and even they don't have a really fleshed out combat system (it all depends on your build and stats, not your mechanical skills despite the fact that GW2 tried to change that a little by adding more 'skill' elements). Not to mention there is no actual open world, meaningful PvP in 90% of all MMORPGs in the market. They're social games and most of them have been 'casualised' and turned into brainless themepark fiestas. There's now also a weird crowd that got so used to this bizarre situation even the thought of PvP and actually using their brain to achieve stuff in game scare them. Jokuc here for instance wants to 'have tab target where I can grind in spawn area by spamming my auto and dodge when needed while eating Doritos'.
At least you aren't against hybrid combat which is good to hear.. You do know that you'll actually need to manually aim your skill-shots right? For instance if you want to use a hard CC ability, it'll be action based meaning you'll need to land the shot -- knowing that if you're still in favour of hybrid combat, i'll consider you a really open minded person who is open to new things. I personally would prefer a 100% action based system but would probably get bored of it in few months (even though it was done in a hybrid manner as in League). I guess it really depends on what kind of tab we're thinking of because Jeffrey and Steven said not all tab targeting will be the same, suggesting that they're going for a fun and engaging system that will co exist with action combat which is good to hear. Regardless, can we at least agree on the fact that it is an old system that needs to be redesigned to fit in a game like Ashes of Creation in which combat will be of considerable importance?
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2019
The Secret World is a tab target game with some action elements (placing AoE circles, active dodging out of AoE attacks).
They rebooted the game to be action combat and rebranded as Secret World Legends. Now you have a targeting reticule that needs to line up on a target for skill use.
Honestly it took a bit of time for me to get used to it, but not that long. It wasn’t a massive transition and it didn’t make things any more difficult. And in either game you only had a handful of skills on the skillbar at any one time.
I don't really understand why they cannot let us go completely to one side or the other, why can you only go 75% into either action or tab? And not just let us go 100% if we want to.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't really understand why they cannot let us go completely to one side or the other, why can you only go 75% into either action or tab? And not just let us go 100% if we want to.
As I understand it, you can. Each class will have a mix of abilities, some tab target and some action. You can choose to do just tab target abilities or just action ones, and that would probably be viable. The percentages they’re talking about are how many of those available abilities are of one type or the other.
Note that if you are flexible and allow yourself to use some tab target, some action, you’ll have a greater variety to choose from.
@noaani Did you really have to insult me ? We were having a friendly little argument c: I sure don't have anything personally against you but if you feel that way against me that's fine.
I do however find it laughable that any time I say anything that disproves what you say, you change the topic entirely and talk about BR and other genres. You mention that the #1 most popular mmorpg for over a decade is tab targeted, but that's literally proving my point.
You're calling me dumb and simplifying your statement when you just proved me right yourself.
Who are the people you think are playing WoW ? Do you think it's a bunch of new people suddenly excited to play the tab targeted slow and incredibly needlessly intricate system ? Or do you think it's the people who have played since launch and are just used to tab targeting ? You've proved my point exactly, there's no one new coming into the genre so why would anyone have a huge demand for an action combat only game ?
Most of the genre now is people who have played countless mmorpgs for countless years and most of them are tab targeted, as ancient and outdated the system is. If you've used it for so long and you're used to it why wouldn't you play the most popular game ?
You just regress to insulting me when you have nothing to say ? You're saying I don't understand your argument but you literally don't even have one. All you've done is danced around the facts and or statements I've presented you and moved onto how hard games are, and talked about other games. It really is puzzling to me that you've been so corned you had to insult me and then say I don't understand anything you're saying when you can't even tell me what you're trying to prove.
*Shrug* no hard feelings from me , even though you clearly have some resentment
The younger people I know do not easily get into tab or click type based because in the beginning things are usually too easy and slow paced in comparison to hardest content.
I doubt the disinterest by younger generation is as simple as tab vs action
That does align with noaanis argument that in BR/FPS games the action is immediate and learning curves steeper.
I have doubts for action combat to be able to pull the younger generation but I believe the chances are higher.
Having hybrid system that is difficult to master sounds like a good compromise if they can get it right.
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
At this point, I don't even care what it is, action-based, tab-based, hybrid or hell turn-based combat. As long as the combat is gripping and enjoyable I don't care what they do.
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
At this point, I don't even care what it is, action-based, tab-based, hybrid or hell turn-based combat. As long as the combat is gripping and enjoyable I don't care what they do.
You have these magical orbs that fall from the sky and you have to move them around so that three or more of the same color line up...
There are very, very, few people who break down games as thoroughly as I do.
I strongly prefer action combat.
Having 30 skills is a turn-off in and of itself. In order to play effectively, you'll typically need all 30 keybinds within reach of your fingers, meaning you'll need Q, E, R, F, G, B, V, C, Tab, Caps, 1, 2, 3, 4, all with shift+ctrl modifiers.
Most players hate that.
I'm not strictly opposed, but I think you can add a lot more complexity and strategy with fewer skills in an action combat game.
1 - 7
Shift 1 - 7
Alt 1 - 7
Ctrl 1 - 7
Right mouse, center mouse.
That is before the options of mice that have additional buttons on them - which are actually designed with MMO's in mind.
However, if you'd rather bind them differently, I've never come across a tab target MMO that doesn't allow for that.
That said, 30 skills is on the high end of what tab target MMO's offer - most are in the high teens to low twenties. I don't necessarily correlate number of abilities with complexity of a combat system - unless that number of abilities is 12 or lower.
This is like saying action combat is a method of bypassing the need to gear up. I mean, technically, if your chance to hit and chance to miss are all done via actions, then there is no need for gear, right?
Both statements could potentially be true, but we all know that no developer would make a game like Ashes where either statement is true, so therefore neither statement is actually true.
I mean, if tab target in Ashes was literally just combat abilities without the need to aim them, and they didn't actually put more behind their correct use, then they would be really boring to use and so no one would use a mostly tab target build in Ashes. On the other hand, if they took those tab target abilities than had more behind their correct use and then also added the need to aim them on top of that, then they would be far too complex to use and so no one would use them.
The idea is to make abilities that are all fun to use in one way or another, and all have a similar amount of skill or ability to use correctly - but that skill or ability could be in it's aiming, or it could be in other areas.
I've been talking as if I was in a discussion with someone that understood the basics of tab targeting - someone that has first hand experience with it as a system.
That was a mistake on my part.
You sure seem to think you know a lot about MMO's for someone that has never played one. The problem is, you've made a lot of assumptions about them, and some of those assumptions have been wrong.
This is why you've not understood what I've been saying - because you are unsure of what assumptions you have made about the genre are incorrect.
@Robben DuMarsch I can not play without MMO-mouse anymore. It makes gaming and especially MMORPGs so much more easier to play. I have 20 button on my mouse, but I also use key combinations on top of that if needed. Now I do not need to use shift+ or ctrl+ combos when I can divide bindings on both hands, so I am faster this way. Small mouse buttons are weird at start, but with practise is starts to get more comfortable. If there is an option to customize UI and especially ability bars, then it is even more easier to build UI based on your mouse and keyboard.
I do not mind if there is 30 abilitites available, but like you, I prefer less. I am totally fine with 10 action buttons for example or even less like Albion has. Anyway, have you tested a MMO gaming mouse? If not, I can warmly recommend.
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If you're getting wrist pain from using your mouse, I suggest you stop using the computer entirely.
No one is going to play through any mmorpg now because anyone who hasn't played the genre for decades thinks they're boring. Like I said before no new popular games are tab targeted because most people find it extremely boring and un engaging. People who argue against that like you have most likely played mmorpgs for decades.
Action combat is not buggy unless it's bad but its probably your internet connection. and not being able to rely on something aiming for you.
ONCE again I'm assuming you didn't read my post, tab targeting is very bad. If you want to grow the genre that is. If you're happy with having the genre slowly fade away into nothing because the already dwindling playerbase just hops from new release to new release then that's fine.
Intrepid wanted to grow the genre, how many growing blossoming games do you see that are tab targeted ? I'd love to have an example of that. Sorry If I seem a bit annoyed but the past 5 responses have not even read my posts and have had nothing to do with what I've said at all. You're just making excuses at this point, how are you going to assume always that action combat lags ? It's most likely just your connection. Probably your unwillingness to have to practice aiming with a mouse as well, seeing as you've made the rather.. outlandish excuse of your wrist being in serious pain..
If that is the truth I'd suggest a doctor because I'm certainly not one of those lol
TERA and Crowfall are for example MMORPGs, which has action combat in use. I really loved TERA's combat, but unfortunately the overall performance of the game is not that good. I have not tested Crowfall myself, but at least in latest videos the combat looks interesting and fun.
We have seen lately MOBA games influence in MMORPGs too. Albion online and Fractured for example has moba styled combat and it is one option where more games can move on. I do not say Ashes should follow that path, but maybe skillshots could be something to be concidered and borrowed.
Lag is mostly reliant on your internet connection and the servers, I don't see where this ties into game mechanics. If you're missing shots and blaming it on lag then I get it, but having only tab target to just make the genre even smaller and have ashes be another small mmorpg wouldn't be smart.
2. It is unreliable. Your comment is working against you, Steven even said himself in one of the livestreams (one from last year when they showed off mmo footage walking in mist I believe) that Action Combat is more difficult to pull off as a developer since it depends more on animations and movement systems and unless you get it perfect it can become unreliable. Especially when trying to make a hybrid system. He also said they would fall back to tab-target only if the system wouldn't work out as intended in the end. Not because tab-target necessarily is a billion times more popular, but because it is easier to develop, easier to balance, and less likely to turn out like a glitchy mess. That's why we're testing action combat in Apoc and not tab-target. This is where you'd put your source that specifically correlates the decline in mmo popularity to continuous use of tab-target systems. Playing mmos you run around killing a billion low level mobs for level grind. I don't want to spend my time having to think about how I position my character for optimal dps and leveling speed during such simple and repetitive tasks like that. Again, mostly because I think manual aiming and positioning is not that interesting, but also because it's a waste of commitment. Those kind of mechanics are better suited for stuff like raid bosses. I'd rather have tab target where I can grind in spawn area by spamming my auto and dodge when needed while eating Doritos like the amazing super elite gamer that I am. Don't worry, you can have my autograph if you want. lol alright first off, how do you not see the issue with this? Secondly, there's nothing wrong with my internet speed. Sometimes the game and servers just aren't feeling very well ya know, we all get sick sometimes. Could be 500 people firing aoe effects in the same 10x10 feet area while the server I'm connected to is located in the opposite part of the continent cause intrepid doesn't have Blizzard level resources so I'm in there with above preferred ping. Probably not, no. And I'm fine with that. Innovating with a hybrid system is cool as long as it works smoothly and reliably. Then they can put tab on the skills that works better with that system such as healing and buffing.
Let me put it this way, ignore everything I said above. Let's save ourselves the time spent writing these silly long arguments and just understand that action combat is not as fun for me and it's not as consistent, simple as that. The latter is a fact.
Edit: sorry nothing personal with the sarcastic comments but I haven't eaten so I guess I'm a lil grumpy hah and playing an mmo the way I enjoy it is a big subject for me. I respect your opinion but I guess I'm just old-fashioned.
I honestly with the hybrid system was thinking of specifically taking a couple damage abilities that are tab targeted to make grinding easier ~ !
Thanks for the little talk though, It all comes down to preference anyway so people who argue for days and days just like different things and that's normal. If anything I said was really really rude just know I didn't mean it lol, just have a lot of things on my mind !
I never said it would.
What i have said, several times, is that the ONLY factor that determknes how hqrd ANY game is, is the decision the developers make as to how hard the game should be.
Changing from tab target to action combat doesn't change the decision they have already made as to how hard the game should be.
I'll try and use simple words for you.
How hard a game is and what type of combat the game have are not connected to each other.
Both are decisions made independently of each other during the games development. You can have a very easy action combat game, a very hard action combat game, a very easy tab target game or a very hard tab target game.
Because all four are possible, you can NOT simply say switching from tabto action makes the game any harder, because the game is ONLY ever as hard as the developers want it to be, and they could make it as easy or as hard as they wanted it to be.
If Intrepid wanted to, they could make all action combat abalities AoE, make it so players only need to use three abilities qnd then make tab target combat more intricate than EQ2'S combat, where players need tk balance 20+ abilities in combat. Suddenly, action combat will be looked at as the easy build.
Because you don't understand simple concepts that others have no issue with.
I honestly don't believe you don't understand what I've been saying, as it is all really simple stuff.
All I can come up with is that you have no real argument against what I am saying, and so instead of admitting that you may be wrong, you are arguing that the argument I am putting forth makes no sense, despite others being able to follow just fine.
I'm putting this down to your clear lack of understanding of what a tab target system actually is (hint; it's more than a target method), and also to your clearly diminutive age.
Perhaps Poko is referring to that argument.
I agree with your statement that tab target PvE can be made impossible just like action can.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
I mean, sure, action based BR games are popular with kids, but is that because of the combat in them? Because of the fact that you can just join a match at any time? Because of the fact that the game mechanics are simple to grasp? Because of the fact that BR's lend themselves well to streaming? Because of the incredibly low system requirements of most BR's? Because of the lack of non-combat activities that younger people don't enjoy as much? Because most BR's are free?
To me, it is worth noting that there has never been a day where an action based MMO has been the most popular MMO. Sure, action games may be more popular, but not action based MMO's.
There are several possible arguments people could make as to why this is the case, but it can't be argued that this is, in actual fact, the case.
To me, the reason I think the above is the case is because of all the additional content in MMO's. Any given player may not craft, but they need to interact with the crafting system. You my not want to go to a specific zone, but you need to travel through it. You may want to take on a specific encounter, but you need to level up first.
I'm still not at all against the hybrid system Ashes is going to have, I quite like it actually. I am, however, against people that bash on any aspect of a game without understanding it, as many people that have never played a tab target based game seem to be doing in this thread.
Youre right, Ive never played any MMO to their end actually. The only one where I would say I could call myself a "Veteran" of is Elsword and.. Elsword is kind of a special one Id assume
I never played a MMO for more than 6 months, altough I often tried out pretty much anything a game had to offer. I did tank/took part in what was considered the strongest bosses at the time and did take part in PvP events. In this time I always found TT games kind of dull compared to AC ones
If youre saying I need to really get into the game to understand how engaging a TT game can be, then I totally have to agree with Poko that TT wont make MMOs more popular
I also took some time to "watch" some EQ2 gameplay. PvP as well as PvE
PvE looks like a staring contest for the most part - normal PvE and raids. Looks like youre just tanking autos while using skills. Got to admit, running around and using 30 diffrent skills looks more complex than what I was expecting but standing still and only using skills.. looks like I could play this game onehanded. Dont know. looks more like EQ checks than anything else
PvP is about the same. To be fair, they did do a lot of bunny hopping and running away and chasing. But Id assume that running away and chasing was just trying to kite a melee fighter. Oh and (Id assume RNG based?) CC, a lot of CC and the bunny hopping because bunny hopping? or does bunny hopping actually do something in EQ?
Dont want to insult this game for being boring or bad. Just certainly didnt help me understand anything. Its why Im asking
I've said that before in this thread - part of the reason young people don't like tab target is because in order to understand what someone is showing you, you have to understand the whole game. If you don't understand the game, you don't understand what you are watching.
In an action game, you can press one button and your character makes some grandiose movement. It can look cool, but it is just looks. This means that action games will always look flashier if you are just watching them - and if all you go by is how a games combat looks, then action games will always come out on top.
There are very, very, few people who break down games as thoroughly as I do.
I strongly prefer action combat.
Having 30 skills is a turn-off in and of itself. In order to play effectively, you'll typically need all 30 keybinds within reach of your fingers, meaning you'll need Q, E, R, F, G, B, V, C, Tab, Caps, 1, 2, 3, 4, all with shift+ctrl modifiers.
Most players hate that.
I'm not strictly opposed, but I think you can add a lot more complexity and strategy with fewer skills in an action combat game.
As it has been stated, everything you do with tab target combat, you can do with action - but this time you will only need to aim --- and no, the focus won't be necessarily your aim. You just assume way too many things @noaani for instance the reason why people like to play MOBAs, FPS games and BRs isn't just because they offer 'quick fun' and simpler mechanics. They are popular because they offer things that no MMO to date could offer which is skill based combat -- and no, not 'just looks' but actual mechanics which seems to me that, ironically, you've been having hard time to grasp.
Of course, games that combine strategic gameplay (again, not necessarily tab target) with fast paced action gameplay will prevail over one or the other. The perfect example for this is League of Legends which is the most popular game of our time with freaking 8 million peak *daily* CONCURRENT players globally. The game is fully skilled based and you both need to 'understand the whole game' AND use your reflexes to succeed -- and one could argue that it more or less requires the same time investment that one needs to grasp most mechanics of MMORPGs (weeks, months, sometimes years depending on one's IQ level - unlike more action based games such as BRs and FPSs which *purely* focuses on your aim and one will need to improve his/her aiming skills more than trying to learn the mechanics) -- almost half of the people that come from different genres\games trying out LoL end up not touching the game ever again because they couldn't get the mechanics, making your 'time to learn' argument invalid, unless you said that only for FPSs and not all action based games.
As you've said, there are more to MMORPGs than just the combat -- in fact, one could argue that it is their weakest point. Even now, i can't think of a single MMORPG that put emphasis on combat other than GW2, BDO and to some extent Archeage -- and even they don't have a really fleshed out combat system (it all depends on your build and stats, not your mechanical skills despite the fact that GW2 tried to change that a little by adding more 'skill' elements). Not to mention there is no actual open world, meaningful PvP in 90% of all MMORPGs in the market. They're social games and most of them have been 'casualised' and turned into brainless themepark fiestas. There's now also a weird crowd that got so used to this bizarre situation even the thought of PvP and actually using their brain to achieve stuff in game scare them. Jokuc here for instance wants to 'have tab target where I can grind in spawn area by spamming my auto and dodge when needed while eating Doritos'.
At least you aren't against hybrid combat which is good to hear.. You do know that you'll actually need to manually aim your skill-shots right? For instance if you want to use a hard CC ability, it'll be action based meaning you'll need to land the shot -- knowing that if you're still in favour of hybrid combat, i'll consider you a really open minded person who is open to new things. I personally would prefer a 100% action based system but would probably get bored of it in few months (even though it was done in a hybrid manner as in League). I guess it really depends on what kind of tab we're thinking of because Jeffrey and Steven said not all tab targeting will be the same, suggesting that they're going for a fun and engaging system that will co exist with action combat which is good to hear. Regardless, can we at least agree on the fact that it is an old system that needs to be redesigned to fit in a game like Ashes of Creation in which combat will be of considerable importance?
They rebooted the game to be action combat and rebranded as Secret World Legends. Now you have a targeting reticule that needs to line up on a target for skill use.
Honestly it took a bit of time for me to get used to it, but not that long. It wasn’t a massive transition and it didn’t make things any more difficult. And in either game you only had a handful of skills on the skillbar at any one time.
Note that if you are flexible and allow yourself to use some tab target, some action, you’ll have a greater variety to choose from.
@noaani Did you really have to insult me ? We were having a friendly little argument c: I sure don't have anything personally against you but if you feel that way against me that's fine.
I do however find it laughable that any time I say anything that disproves what you say, you change the topic entirely and talk about BR and other genres. You mention that the #1 most popular mmorpg for over a decade is tab targeted, but that's literally proving my point.
You're calling me dumb and simplifying your statement when you just proved me right yourself.
Who are the people you think are playing WoW ? Do you think it's a bunch of new people suddenly excited to play the tab targeted slow and incredibly needlessly intricate system ? Or do you think it's the people who have played since launch and are just used to tab targeting ? You've proved my point exactly, there's no one new coming into the genre so why would anyone have a huge demand for an action combat only game ?
Most of the genre now is people who have played countless mmorpgs for countless years and most of them are tab targeted, as ancient and outdated the system is. If you've used it for so long and you're used to it why wouldn't you play the most popular game ?
You just regress to insulting me when you have nothing to say ? You're saying I don't understand your argument but you literally don't even have one. All you've done is danced around the facts and or statements I've presented you and moved onto how hard games are, and talked about other games. It really is puzzling to me that you've been so corned you had to insult me and then say I don't understand anything you're saying when you can't even tell me what you're trying to prove.
*Shrug*
I doubt the disinterest by younger generation is as simple as tab vs action
That does align with noaanis argument that in BR/FPS games the action is immediate and learning curves steeper.
I have doubts for action combat to be able to pull the younger generation but I believe the chances are higher.
Having hybrid system that is difficult to master sounds like a good compromise if they can get it right.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
Shift 1 - 7
Alt 1 - 7
Ctrl 1 - 7
Right mouse, center mouse.
That is before the options of mice that have additional buttons on them - which are actually designed with MMO's in mind.
However, if you'd rather bind them differently, I've never come across a tab target MMO that doesn't allow for that.
That said, 30 skills is on the high end of what tab target MMO's offer - most are in the high teens to low twenties. I don't necessarily correlate number of abilities with complexity of a combat system - unless that number of abilities is 12 or lower.
Both statements could potentially be true, but we all know that no developer would make a game like Ashes where either statement is true, so therefore neither statement is actually true.
I mean, if tab target in Ashes was literally just combat abilities without the need to aim them, and they didn't actually put more behind their correct use, then they would be really boring to use and so no one would use a mostly tab target build in Ashes. On the other hand, if they took those tab target abilities than had more behind their correct use and then also added the need to aim them on top of that, then they would be far too complex to use and so no one would use them.
The idea is to make abilities that are all fun to use in one way or another, and all have a similar amount of skill or ability to use correctly - but that skill or ability could be in it's aiming, or it could be in other areas.
I've been talking as if I was in a discussion with someone that understood the basics of tab targeting - someone that has first hand experience with it as a system.
That was a mistake on my part.
You sure seem to think you know a lot about MMO's for someone that has never played one. The problem is, you've made a lot of assumptions about them, and some of those assumptions have been wrong.
This is why you've not understood what I've been saying - because you are unsure of what assumptions you have made about the genre are incorrect.
I do not mind if there is 30 abilitites available, but like you, I prefer less. I am totally fine with 10 action buttons for example or even less like Albion has. Anyway, have you tested a MMO gaming mouse? If not, I can warmly recommend.