bows and range weapons (aim)

in an MMORPG not really as massive fan of aiming a projectile weapons , as i mainly pay MMORPG for builds and cool-down management . as i can't really aim .don't mind range weapons in game but on fixed damage, like manly others MMORPG's . so just wondering if people think the same and if so why are we testing aiming in Ashes of Creation Apocalypse.

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Nagash

Most games I play are tab targeted so aiming was never a problem but it will be interesting to see how the hybrid range combat works

Damokles

Steven once said something about players deciding between aimed ranged combat and tab target aiming i think...
Tab target will have a built in crit chance, but the chance is pretty low.
Aimed targeting will have headshots with guaranteed crits i believe.

They are still deciding on headshots in the mmorpg i believe.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_targeting

I myself am also pants at fps combat, and will most likely use an action stile gameplay with melee combat but use tab targetting with ranged weapons (if we can decide for each at least)

Rem_

Because it's good to appeal to more than one audience. Look at the amount of people who like aiming in other games or br games. Hopefully by having a good action combat system it will bring new people to the genre. It's also good to appeal to both sides of the already exists mmorpg community anyway ~ !

caedwyn

as someone who (probably) has played mage more than anyone else (over 18 years ONLY as elven mage)
i strongly disagree with the fact that a wand should be so precise and have like headshot damage etc etc...
the scepter right now is good except it needs to either have easier aim OR more ready to shoot projectiles

cyanideinsanity

Apoc will be entirely action oriented to test the action side of the hybrid tab/action system that will be in the mmo.

xlangatangx

caedwyn wrote: »

i strongly disagree with the fact that a wand should be so precise and have like headshot damage etc etc...

@caedwyn Why? Other than the fact that it's how you've played the class for 15 18 years, why do you feel like you shouldn't have precision skills / weapons as a mage? Would you be ok if 75% of wands were auto-aim, but 25% were skill based? Or what if the auto-attack of a wand is tab, but any ability it gives you is skill based?

I'm not patronizing here, I am genuinely curious where you stand. Taking you at your word, I would consider anyone with 15 18 years of experience in any trade damn near expert in that craft. It would be nice to hear the reasoning behind your firm stance, and if/where you feel there is room for flexibility.

caedwyn wrote: »

the scepter right now is good except it needs to either have easier aim OR more ready to shoot projectiles

Hmmmm maybe you are using the Drifter wrong then. The Drifter has homing. Put your reticle on a bad guy, left click. Doesn't get much easier than that. Homing only seems to activate if your enemy is centered on your reticle. You don't have to 'lead' your target. Aim right in the middle of their chest or at the logo on their cape then pew pew.

Run out of 'ammo'? Get to cover or switch weapons. I feel like the Drifter already wins most *midrange or closer fights provided you aren't playing against someone that is a god at aiming or gets a couple lucky crits in.

*I would consider midrange roughly between 2-8 'lunges' of distance

You can also kite with it very well, which nets a lot of headshots as your opponent tries to close the distance (while wasting valuable stamina in the process). BTW... not sure if headshots with the Drifter do additional damage, but they do give you the nice 'ding' sound every time you land one. Overall though, the drifter is fair where it sits, and is handicapped in favor of people like me who get outplayed and out-accuracy'd often.

caedwyn

xlangatangx wrote: »

caedwyn wrote: »

i strongly disagree with the fact that a wand should be so precise and have like headshot damage etc etc...

@caedwyn Why? Other than the fact that it's how you've played the class for 15 18 years, why do you feel like you shouldn't have precision skills / weapons as a mage? Would you be ok if 75% of wands were auto-aim, but 25% were skill based? Or what if the auto-attack of a wand is tab, but any ability it gives you is skill based?

thank you very much for the understanding and the nice question.
also thanks for the recognition

1: wand + auto-aim = NO. NO. NO!
2: wand should have a relative precision yes because the gemstones they use to focus the magical power are small and pointed forward = smaller more precise and delicate projectiles

3: even if a mage using wand used a skill, they SHOULD TECHNICALLY use the wand to cast it (direct it)

so I'm not saying wand should not be precise it must be delicate and precise BUT not to the same level of finesse and precision that a ranger with a bow or someone with a pistol is!

imagine the following scenario: you use a wand to direct a magical lightning bolt towards an enemy ok?
should this bolt be so precise that it works like a bullet? (entering from the wound and going out from the other side of the body? ) OFC NOT!

Q: so what should it do?
A: it should electrocute the enemy upon impact and the effect should be felt by all body or some parts of the body, not just a very tiny point.

SO = headshots and sniping someone with magic ??? is absurd because it belongs to the rangers and the marksmen class with a bow!
or in our current world = snipers and soldiers.

4: I believe for all the magical attacks such as wand/book/ orb/ scepter/ staff... they should make an exception and remove the (more damage to the head or etc) but instead give these weapon types MORE CRIT DAMAGE to compensate.

my view on the Wand :

to me, a wand is like an antenna (imagine your wifi modem
I only consider wands for lower-tier magic really and I would never accept a mage using a wand to break a planet in half ... while I would accept it with open arms if the said mage used a simple ring or no weapons at all except hands or mind .... the concept of the wand is usually something that we see in almost ALL works (games,movies,books,fanfictions,comics,anime,manga) everything except the works such as harry potter which was originally written for kids, in all the works we always see the "apprentices" first learning to hone their skills with wands because their minds and visualizations lacks the level of their masters (with few exceptions) and even we were to consider works such as harry potter's world you notice none of the skills they used was MASSIVE right ? they were all more like utility or default projectiles or magics with delicacy and finesse.
and the WHOLE world revolved around a group of teachers and ex-teachers and students (apprentices)

xlangatangx wrote: »

Hmmmm maybe you are using the Drifter wrong then.
Run out of 'ammo'? Get to cover or switch weapons.
You can also kite with it very well, which nets a lot of headshots as your opponent tries to close the distance (while wasting valuable stamina in the process).

yea first my aiming sucks because I've never played shooter games or battle royales in my whole life
with the one exception of mass effect series XD

and combine that with +160 ping that i get and well you miss A LOT
so its really a personal problem ... but again, a mage using scepter is technically a war mage A HEAVY mage who is using scepter (shorter staff) because they are using it with shield and scepters i think would be ok if they did small melee damage in close combat as well.
but then again,
magical projectiles are not physical, therefore, they should not. must not. have any "headshot" extra damage and the damage should be the same no matter which part of the body you hit

Azathoth

I can see a fair balance between lessening damage for head shots and such for increased critical damage.

However, an Ice Crystal similar to a magical ice projectile shaped like an incredibly sharp icicle should function no differently than an arrow. I am sure there are other elemental damage type attacks that would follow the same argument. I don't see the point in coding the 'bonus head shot damage' versus 'increased critical damage' down to each spell though.

caedwyn

Azathoth wrote: »

I can see a fair balance between lessening damage for head shots and such for increased critical damage.

However, an Ice Crystal similar to a magical ice projectile shaped like an incredibly sharp icicle should function no differently than an arrow. I am sure there are other elemental damage type attacks that would follow the same argument. I don't see the point in coding the 'bonus head shot damage' versus 'increased critical damage' down to each spell though.

increased crit rate for the wand and all other magic weapons and disabling headshot extra damage instead will cause what i explained up there to be a balanced system of magic use and fair for rangers ...

here is my full analogy on the wand and all other types of magic weapons
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/209690/#Comment_209690

Karthos

Bringing in all the problems of an MMO and FPS combat. Bold move Cotton

Azathoth

@caedwyn
I don't know if your suggestion would cause a balanced system though, have you ever implemented such a system in a hybrid combat game like Ashes plans to be?

I did find a lot of merit in your suggestion but pointed out an instance where a magical attack could function like an arrow shot from a bow. By full explanation of that can be found here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/43471/bows-and-range-weapons-aim#latest

Analogies are dumb. It's like when you tell your friend your opinion and then your friend may or may not disagree.

caedwyn

Azathoth wrote: »

@caedwyn
I don't know if your suggestion would cause a balanced system though, have you ever implemented such a system in a hybrid combat game like Ashes plans to be?

I did find a lot of merit in your suggestion but pointed out an instance where a magical attack could function like an arrow shot from a bow. By full explanation of that can be found here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/43471/bows-and-range-weapons-aim#latest

Analogies are dumb. It's like when you tell your friend your opinion and then your friend may or may not disagree.

yes i read that full comment and i did not disagree with it it has really logic to it
and no i have not per se, but we can think of all the tab targeting systems as what i described, imagine :
tab targeting is like how it is... you hit ... and sometimes you crit.
now action combat for magic would be = you hit , you have a double or triple chance of crit, instead of having your attacks have damage bonus to headshot or etc...

Azathoth

I'm still on board with this, but it would be nice if there were some attacks that had the option of being ranged magic with the chance of headshots.

Noaani

Azathoth wrote: »

I'm still on board with this, but it would be nice if there were some attacks that had the option of being ranged magic with the chance of headshots.

To me, an attack that is magic should not matter where it hits the target, but an attack that is non-magical (even if the origin of the attack is magic), should.

An example of this could be a fireball. If it hits you, you take full damage. A mage summoning a physical projectile and propelling it at someone though, that should do damage depending on where it hits (it should be treated exactly the same as an arrow).

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