Do you want "Daily Quests" if so, to what extent?

Many MMO:s have daily quests to give you a steady source of income and reputations, as well as to keep you logging in everyday. Do you want daily quests? Why/why not? If you want them, how important/impactful should they be?

Personaly I would like some form of daily quests but I want them to be interesting and relevant. The best ones for me are quests that make you go out and explore the world. This helps making the world and "older" less relevant areas feel more alive.

For me, if daily quests are present in the game, they should be for max level and they should not take more than 30 mins to complete. They should be optional and focus mostly on income. I also like profession quests.

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Caeryl

Ghoosty wrote: »

@Caeryl I understood what you said. I just said that I do not feel big difference between farm gold buy player, farm honor buy npc from the perspective of buying player.
We have unlimited supply of gold, unlimited supply of 'iron' what can use to prepare gear. The only difference is that the player transform the material to gear or an NPC do that.

Of course from crafter point of view, the difference is huge. But still exist that a rare gear created from something what can be farmed.

You’re misunderstanding the fundamental difference in which players determine how widespread a particular piece of high-tier gear is, vs the game setting it concretely as unlimited.

It is very different using tokens earned from casual gameplay than it is to commission a player who has completed a multitude of quests, or purchased from a high end raider who looted it, to get a rare recipe.

I find an economy defined by NPC prices to be boring at best. It’s certainly negative for players who want to earn funds off their crafting, and for the very reason high tier gear shouldn’t be made available in unlimited quantities by the game in any capacity.

Edit: If you don’t care about the health of player economies then we have a baseline disagreement here. I’m in favor of player controlled systems, not game controlled systems except for the most basic supplies.

Ghoosty

@Caeryl We do not have any disagreement, because I do not take my vote for any either solution. I just reacted to your sentence where you said you do not want to be able to get high level gear by farming something.
If you are able to buy highend gear from crafter for money, technically, you farmed the gear.

I have never played with an MMO where you are able to buy highend gear for gold and I find it OK to play with it for months. So I tried to raise critical points in my original comment. (As I read it again, it is a little bit confusing). I care about health of the economy, but we have very limited information regarding what they plan. I saw in other games when a good looking thing caused big mess. If I do not see good examples but I see where can it be wrong, it crates fear in me about the game.

Caeryl

Ghoosty wrote: »

@Caeryl We do not have any disagreement, because I do not take my vote for any either solution. I just reacted to your sentence where you said you do not want to be able to get high level gear by farming something.
If you are able to buy highend gear from crafter for money, technically, you farmed the gear.

I have never played with an MMO where you are able to buy highend gear for gold and I find it OK to play with it for months. So I tried to raise critical points in my original comment. (As I read it again, it is a little bit confusing). I care about health of the economy, but we have very limited information regarding what they plan. I saw in other games when a good looking thing caused big mess. If I do not see good examples but I see where can it be wrong, it crates fear in me about the game.

Let me clarify then. End game gear should not be created within the game simply by farming a currency. It should either be purposefully created by a player who has obtained a rare recipe and has chosen to distribute it, or it should be a drop obtained by a raider who may chose to sell it.

It creates an imbalance in desirability and in some cases disrupt balance in a PvP environment when everyone can obtain something “rare” and powerful through a NPC purchase.

As an example, in ESO, there are 2 piece item sets that have a lot of power. Typically the DLC dungeon sets are more difficult to obtain due to being obtained from veteran modes of dungeons, so when one was a powerful healing tool, that was ok because it was used primarily by the people who farmed that PvE content within that PvE content.

Then it got released for a weekend in a vendor that uses PvP currency, and next thing you know that potent heal tool was on every other player in the PvP zone, and the next patch it was nerfed into uselessness for larger raid groups in PvE.

Noaani

Ghoosty wrote: »

@Caeryl I understood what you said. I just said that I do not feel big difference between 'farm gold'-'buy player', 'farm honor'-'buy npc' from the perspective of buying player.

You shouldn't look at things from the perspective of a player.

Players don't know shit (no offense).

Look at it from a developer perspective.

If you have high end equipment in your game, you want the ability to make it scarce.

If you have high end equipment in your game, you want people to have to play through the content you have spent the most time on in order to get it.

If - as a developer - you put your best items up for sale on an NPC for gold (even if it is a lot of gold), then the only content you need to make is content for players to use to farm gold. There is no point putting in content that makes use of that gear - unless that content then drops better gear which would then mean that the gear on the NPC wasn't the best gear negating the whole situation.

Dygz

Caeryl wrote: »

“Dailies” in the way that most people recognize, as in “bonus rewards for doing a menial task for the first time per day”, cannot possibly be built into standard gameplay.

The bonus comes out of nowhere, causing the first time you do it to be the single most valuable. If you have a daily of “craft three pieces of armor” and are rewarded with an 10 gold while crafting a piece of armor usually grants zero gold without player interaction, you just encourage people to spam alts for quick money.

Dailies are absolutely unnecessary unless the baseline reward system is poorly designed, which should cause the reward system to be redesigned and not earn a bandaid solution that rewards people with more alts than dedication to game content.

Like someone else said earlier “Anything you can do in ten minutes, cannot be significantly meaningful” nor should it be rewarded heavily with bursts of money or exp, much less real $ currencies.

Doesn't matter what most people recognize. What matters is what is actually true. And, what matters in this case is how the Ashes devs implement dailies.
The Dailies in Apoc are not something that we must do as the first time per day. It might take several matches to complete an Apoc Daily, should a player choose to pursue that Daily.
Dailies are bonus rewards for doing a menial task. "First time per day" is not an inherent component.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "bonus comes out of nowhere". In Wizard101, players have to go to the quest giver who hands out Dailies. The reward for the first 2/5 days of the week is gold. The 3rd day is PVP arena tickets. The 4th day is crowns (embers). The 5th day is an item. The 3rd week, the 2nd day is a mystery item). At the end of the 3rd week (15 days), that reward pattern resets.
My main character is on the 3rd day of the 2nd week (Day 8). My alt character is on the 4th day of the 1st week (Day 4). And they will stay there until they complete a Daily.
Sure, they will immediately receive their reward without me having to return to the quest giver. But, I don't understand why that would be problematic.
In Apoc, we can choose to do the Dailies or ignore them. And we receive the rewards (2000 xp) after we complete the match.

Which MMORPG grants 10 gold for crafting three pieces of armor where crafting armor usually grants none without player interaction?? And why must that be the example Ashes is likely to follow??
Easy enough to have the Dailies reward embers or emotes or hairstyles or monster coin tokens, similar to Apoc rewards, instead of gold if there is a concern about negatively affecting the economy.

Doesn't really matter whether Dailies are unnecessary. What matters is what the devs want in their game design. I'd need to see data that supports the claim that Dailies "reward people with more alts than dedication to game content."
I love alts, but I am rarely enticed to complete Dailies on all of my alts. That decision really is more about whether a specific Daily is something I like to do or something that specific characters are interested. It's rarely about the rewards. Typically the rewards are also trivial - but small bonuses can be better than nothing if the task isn't too laborious.

Someone did say that anything you can do in ten minutes cannot be meaningful, but that is not true in Ashes because everything we do adds to Node progression - so if numerous people complete a Daily to travel to xx region and kill three mobs, that will significantly affect the progression of that Node.
Same is true for Dailies focused on Religious or Social progression. Because in Ashes, it's not just about how completed tasks affects the individual player character, but also about how the completed tasks impact the world dynamics.

Ghoosty

noaani wrote: »

]You shouldn't look at things from the perspective of a player.

If - as a developer - you put your best items up for sale on an NPC for gold (even if it is a lot of gold), then the only content you need to make is content for players to use to farm gold. There is no point putting in content that makes use of that gear - unless that content then drops better gear which would then mean that the gear on the NPC wasn't the best gear negating the whole situation.

First of all, I raised up another points but it seems nobody understood it. (I also see it was a little bit messy.)

1. In the WoW, you were not able to buy the best PvP gear from honorfarming unless you reach certain level in PvP rank. So you had to prove some skill level before you were able to get the best gear. (So pure farm is not enough)

2. In case of PvE gear, you had to do the hardest PvE content to get the best gear. It was souldbound. (Can't farm at all.)

3. In a world where a crafter can have the recepie for the best gear the question to get the gear is only the amount of gold and some knowledge who is the person who is able to create that gear. (purely farm gold)

The first 2 mechanics can't ruin the economics because they are outside from it.

The 3rd option is the most complicated. If production is depend on raw material in this case there will be extreme amount of best gear on the market, because once the crafter get the recepie, can produce it limitlessly. (Nobody want it)
So we have to limit it somehow.
One solution is that you need special material to craft the gear. From that point the question is how can you obtain that special material? If you receive it from raid bosses, at the beginning it will be limited, for the person who defeat the raid bosses. After they have the needed amount they will sell it. From that point the there will be more and more special material on the market so the best gear will be cheaper and cheaper. So for healthy economy you have to do something to handle the situation. (I do not want to design a full economy systems so I stop here.)
As you can see, once the receipt is available the situation become more and more near to the situation where you can buy the best gear for gold from NPC for lot of gold.

I would like to emphasize that I do not want to have the situation that you can buy best gear from an NPC for tradeable currency (usually it is gold).

noaani wrote: »

There is no point putting in content that makes use of that gear - unless that content then drops better gear which would then mean that the gear on the NPC wasn't the best gear negating the whole situation."

Maybe I am the exception, but for me the gear is the tool to beat the hardest content, not the goal. So I do not do the PvE content to get gear, I get the gear to be able to beat the content.

Caeryl

Dygz wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

“Dailies” in the way that most people recognize, as in “bonus rewards for doing a menial task for the first time per day”, cannot possibly be built into standard gameplay.

The bonus comes out of nowhere, causing the first time you do it to be the single most valuable. If you have a daily of “craft three pieces of armor” and are rewarded with an 10 gold while crafting a piece of armor usually grants zero gold without player interaction, you just encourage people to spam alts for quick money.

Dailies are absolutely unnecessary unless the baseline reward system is poorly designed, which should cause the reward system to be redesigned and not earn a bandaid solution that rewards people with more alts than dedication to game content.

Like someone else said earlier “Anything you can do in ten minutes, cannot be significantly meaningful” nor should it be rewarded heavily with bursts of money or exp, much less real $ currencies.

.
Dailies are bonus rewards for doing a menial task. "First time per day" is not an inherent component.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "bonus comes out of nowhere". In Wizard101, players have to go to the quest giver who hands out Dailies. The reward for the first 2/5 days of the week is gold. The 3rd day is PVP arena tickets. The 4th day is crowns (embers). The 5th day is an item. The 3rd week, the 2nd day is a mystery item). At the end of the 3rd week (15 days), that reward pattern resets.
My main character is on the 3rd day of the 2nd week (Day 8). My alt character is on the 4th day of the 1st week (Day 4). And they will stay there until they complete a Daily.
Sure, they will immediately receive their reward without me having to return to the quest giver. But, I don't understand why that would be problematic.
In Apoc, we can choose to do the Dailies or ignore them. And we receive the rewards (2000 xp) after we complete the match.

This paragraph here highlights exactly WHY I’m against dailies in a game that is supposed to be complex and rewarding.

There shouldn’t HAVE to be dailies if the reward systems are designed well.

Dailies are a cheap gimmick to shroud a poor reward system on shallow gameplay. And yes, I can be honest here, APOC is not some complex gaming masterpiece. It’s here to test systems and dailies are the easy method to push players into alternate activities where other meaningful rewards can’t be provided.

This entire thread is thankfully a moot point since it’s been stated multiple times we won’t be getting dailies in the MMO. It’s not near so hard as some may claim to have a reward system that doesn’t rely on exploiting the Fear of Missing Out.

Dygz

https://youtu.be/WaNlRMaNZzg?t=1428

Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?"
A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."

Caeryl

Dygz wrote: »

https://youtu.be/WaNlRMaNZzg?t=1428

Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?"
A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."

In summary, “No there’s not typical dailies everyone will be getting, and we’re not going to design them to be so rewarding they become mandatory, but there will be quests available every day because the world is in constant flux and opportunities are always changing.”

That’s the kind of minor questing and reward structuring that I’m in favor of. Quests that make sense with rewards that make sense for the quests you choose to do.

Noaani

Ghoosty wrote: »

1. In the WoW, you were not able to buy the best PvP gear from honorfarming unless you reach certain level in PvP rank. So you had to prove some skill level before you were able to get the best gear. (So pure farm is not enough)

2. In case of PvE gear, you had to do the hardest PvE content to get the best gear. It was souldbound. (Can't farm at all.)

3. In a world where a crafter can have the recepie for the best gear the question to get the gear is only the amount of gold and some knowledge who is the person who is able to create that gear. (purely farm gold)

The first 2 mechanics can't ruin the economics because they are outside from it.

The 3rd option is the most complicated. If production is depend on raw material in this case there will be extreme amount of best gear on the market, because once the crafter get the recepie, can produce it limitlessly. (Nobody want it)
So we have to limit it somehow.
One solution is that you need special material to craft the gear. From that point the question is how can you obtain that special material? If you receive it from raid bosses, at the beginning it will be limited, for the person who defeat the raid bosses. After they have the needed amount they will sell it. From that point the there will be more and more special material on the market so the best gear will be cheaper and cheaper. So for healthy economy you have to do something to handle the situation. (I do not want to design a full economy systems so I stop here.)
As you can see, once the receipt is available the situation become more and more near to the situation where you can buy the best gear for gold from NPC for lot of gold.

I would like to emphasize that I do not want to have the situation that you can buy best gear from an NPC for tradeable currency (usually it is gold).

You were doing really well up until the point that I have bolded.

First of all, it is absolutely possible to have crafting based raid drops that are so valuable to the raid as a whole that they won't sell them. All you need to do is make it so that the item can be used to craft consumables that are better than anything else available.

However, an even easier way to do this is to make it so that the raid needs this material in order to maintain the gear they have crafted with it.

It may be that gear is destroyed with use, which would mean that the raid needs to maintain a stockpile of these items in order to replace destroyed items.

Or, it could be that gear takes damage, and you need to use the same materials used to make an item in order to repair it. This would then mean that guilds need to stockpile this material in order to repair gear.

In both cases above, the more gear in the raid that uses this material, the more of the material the raid needs to keep stockpiled.

Ashes will have a system somewhat similar to one of the above, though I am a bit uncertain as to which way they are going with it.

All the above said, it is perfectly possible to have a no-trade flag on the material from the raid boss that is used to craft the top end item. All you need to do is have an in game crafting commission system where you meet a crafter (at an appropriate crafting station), you initiate a commission crafting session which opens up a UI window for both players. The window allows the commissioner to select the item to be crafted, and a gold value to go to the commissionee, and then shows the items needed to craft the item that is selected. From there, both players are able to drag items to the window in order for them to be used in crafting the item - meaning no-trade items can be used just fine.

When finished, the item is placed in the commissioner's inventory, and the agreed upon gold is transferred from the commissioner to the commissionee.

As to why we should specifically want high end items to be player crafted rather than from an NPC - it is the only real way to make crafting worthwhile.

If a game only has crafted gear that is of use at low levels or as entry level gear, then there is no real need to even have crafting in the game. If there is no way to get top end gear from crafting, all players will look at crafted gear as less good than drops from mobs.

However, if the best gear in the game is made by crafters, then people are more happy to use crafted gear at all levels of the game. It also means there is a point to leveling up as a crafter, which is always a good thing.

Maybe I am the exception, but for me the gear is the tool to beat the hardest content, not the goal. So I do not do the PvE content to get gear, I get the gear to be able to beat the content.

I'm the same.

This is why I have always disliked PvP content. You aren't getting the gear to beat the content, you are getting the gear to avoid being someone elses content.

Ghoosty

@noaani Thank you!

I also thought about a system what you explained, but I did not want to expand my comment further. That is why I put that comment in bracket. If you add together our comments, you receive something what is worse than a wall of text.

I just have one observation. If the guild/raider do not sell the special material for any reason, they will not sell the crafted gear for the same reason. So you will not be able to buy best equipment for gold neither from crafters. So this system is not equal to "farm gold"-"buy player" system. The crafters will be important and necessary for the game, what I find perfectly OK. But they will not be gear sellers, rather then processors.

Regarding PvP, I like it less than PvE, but I gladly participate in any PvP content. My issue with it that I want to do PvP activity to get PvP gear. If they manage to need the same gear for PvP and PvE, I will be OK. They plan that, but I have a huge question-mark about it.

leamese

There is probably enough stuff to do. No dailies at all. Let ppl create there own quests for others

VmanGman

No. Daily quests are a lazy method to keep people playing. make the game fun and enjoyable and people will log in as much as they can.

Also, dailies are not only boring game development, but they also make people feel like they can't play the game the way they want to which will lead to lack of enjoyment and burnout.

ENDCER

No , I hate dailies feels like a chore .

Weeklies or even monthlies would be ideal .

eroenne

Hell no. More sand box less theme park

Wandering Mist

Ghoosty wrote: »

Regarding PvP, I like it less than PvE, but I gladly participate in any PvP content. My issue with it that I want to do PvP activity to get PvP gear. If they manage to need the same gear for PvP and PvE, I will be OK. They plan that, but I have a huge question-mark about it.

Having completely separate gear for PvP and PvE only really works if the PvP is confined to closed arenas, which Ashes most certainly won't. Whether you like it or not you will need to engage in world PvP in order to do any meaningful PvE content.

unknown

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ilisfet

Repeatable quests? Sure. Stuff like re-supply the tavern with meat, guard this caravan, get the smithy some ore; that kind of stuff will provide reasonable and meaningful busywork.

But daily quests? Fuck no. Arbitrary time restrictions on performing a repeatable quest is a "no." What makes it always worse is games (not just MMOs) put alternate currencies or high necessities items behind dailies, so you have to do them every day or fall behind, with no means of catching back up. Not to mention hardcore players will burn through those rewards much quicker but be unable to replenish them.

So, repeatables are fine. Don't make them "you can only do this quest once per day."

consultant

Well it is a monthly subscription not a daily subscription. Really with the amount of things that there are to do in mmo do not think dailies are not necessary. Achievements mount collecting, gear collecting pet collecting. getting raids done chalennge material. Think be better if you had like 3 days to get quest done be cool. recurring quests should be used for variety to keep people questing in areas. Certain areas are really cool to quest in but if you already did all quests area then area is kind of wasted.

Numilor

Dailies can become boring, weeklies are better.

Also i think how wow handle dailies is better than pretty much all mmos, world quests are not required, but they are dailies, they just feel a bit different from the normal daily.

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