Lost trust

In 2018 Ashes of Creation was the most anticipated MMORPG. Things really went down hill with the whole BR thing, delays and 0 MMORPG footage. The trust of community in the project is gone. When someone asks for MMORPG release date, noone even remembers that the official statement is "delay is in months, not years" everyone expects the MMORPG to come out at least in 2021.

In what ways do you think Intrepid could start winning back the trust of the community?

I guess a way to do that would be to show more of MMORPG, but the fact that they are not willing to do that says a lot too.

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Gimlog

Guys your realise that the siege mod is coming in 2 month and the BR will be dead just because MMORPG players will prefer it with those kit class and experience of the mmo siege.

But without the BR, the play styles they want to develop and us to enjoy would have been in the siege mode without the stats they got from the BR and without the polish they made...

I'm pretty sure we will enjoy the siege mod and forgot about the BR quickly.

The fact that's a standalone game is a good thing for me , if they update the siege mod with classes once the mmo is realised I could be a good training ground for siege in the mmo

VmanGman

Gimlog wrote: »

Guys your realise that the siege mod is coming in 2 month

How do you know the siege mode is coming out in two months?
It was initially supposed to come out early 2019, then it was supposed to come out by 2020... both of those dates failed.
Stop making stuff up.

Dygz

Still possible for Castle Siege to hit Apoc before 2020.

Heartbeat

My biggest thing is that a lot of what we're seeing in the BR is NOT the MMO, sure the assets are there, but all of the core systems that people will be interacting with every single day in the MMO and even the combat system are not present in the BR and never will be because they are entirely 2 separate games, the BR seems like a big waste of time and making it its own standalone game is a waste of resources when the project that everyone including myself backed on the kickstarter was the MMO, it ALMOST feels like a scam being given this BR and being told it'll be its own game(based on others comments) when all we care about is the MMO.

Gimlog

@vmangman yeah maybe I'm to optimise by adding only one month delay at Steven word...
Let's say 6month so if IS make us wrong, we all be happy

Dygz

The BR is the bare bones of the MMORPG. It's not really a standalone game; it's the equivalent of an Alpha 0 of the MMORPG.
What makes APOC a standalone game is that it's a different setting - thousands of years before the MMORPG. And APOC has separate funding from the MMORPG.

Really, the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm.
We wouldn't be any farther along in MMORPG development had the BR not existed.
We would still be waiting for Alpha 1. People would be whining that we've had no hands-on with gameplay in years. And, we would be way farther behind with network code - probably without any awareness of the issues with the networking that the BR flagged.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Really, the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm.

I'm not sure I agree.

If the storm in Apoc is coded to be versatile, I could see it put to use as a boss mechanic.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

The BR is the bare bones of the MMORPG. It's not really a standalone game; it's the equivalent of an Alpha 0 of the MMORPG.
What makes APOC a standalone game is that it's a different setting - thousands of years before the MMORPG. And APOC has separate funding from the MMORPG.

Really, the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm.
We wouldn't be any farther along in MMORPG development had the BR not existed.
We would still be waiting for Alpha 1. People would be whining that we've had no hands-on with gameplay in years. And, we would be way farther behind with network code - probably without any awareness of the issues with the networking that the BR flagged.

There are so many wrong things in what you're saying.

1. "It's not really a standalone game". Intrepid themselves have said that APOC is a standalone game.
2. "APOC has separate funding from the MMORPG". By testing out things in APOC they are supposedly building the MMORPG which would directly correlate the two even in terms of funding. Therefore, funding that goes towards APOC goes towards the MMORPG also and vice versa... therefore same funding.
3. "Really, the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm". The combat won't be in the MMORPG (action only vs hybrid). The same itemization won't be in the MMORPG. The flashiness of spells won't be in the MMORPG. The crazy acrobatic jumps won't be in the MMORPG. The same TTK and balance won't be in the MMORPG. The same player size (therefore server stress) won't be in the MMORPG.

And lastly don't act like the BR propelled the development of the game and brought us this far. The BR was a design choice, but they could've just as well dropped us in a portion of the map from Alpha 0 with the classes from the first PAX booths from a couple years ago and have us either fight each other or their boss for some quick testing. They literally already had classes and a map designed from previous showcases and tests. The BR is just what they decided to go with, but there were other options.

Edit: word

Gimlog

Well I hope for the backers, that the Alpha 1 of the mmo ( Apoc doesn't count ) would be as polished as possible and that you won't have to test anything else than mechanism, balance and miner bugs

Wandering Mist

vmangman wrote: »

3. "Really, the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm". The combat won't be in the MMORPG (action only vs hybrid). The same itemization won't be in the MMORPG. The flashiness of spells won't be in the MMORPG. The crazy acrobatic jumps won't be in the MMORPG. The same TTK and balance won't be in the MMORPG. The same player size (therefore server stress) won't be in the MMORPG.

And lastly don't act like the BR propelled the development of the game and brought us this far. The BR was a design choice, but they could've just as well dropped us in a portion of the map from Alpha 0 with the classes from the first PAX booths from a couple years ago and have us either fight each other or their boss for some quick testing. They literally already had classes and a map designed from previous showcases and tests. The BR is just what they decided to go with, but there were other options.

Edit: word

The techniques and animations used to build the combat in APOC will be used for the action portion of the mmorpg. The effects and animations used for the items in APOC will be used for the class and weapons abilities in the mmorpg. I don't know about the jumps and neither do you. TTK and balance can be tweaked during testing for the mmorpg. The player size is yet to be determined based on how popular the mmorpg ends up being, and we won't know until we start testing for the mmorpg.

Baboonballs

I've pretty much written off the money as a loss. I don't really expect anything at this point either. Live and learn I guess.

GrinningJack

There is still a chance that the action combat won't make it into the MMORPG, and Steven said he is fine with just Tab if Hybrid doesn't work.

VmanGman

Wandering Mist wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

3. "Really, the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm". The combat won't be in the MMORPG (action only vs hybrid). The same itemization won't be in the MMORPG. The flashiness of spells won't be in the MMORPG. The crazy acrobatic jumps won't be in the MMORPG. The same TTK and balance won't be in the MMORPG. The same player size (therefore server stress) won't be in the MMORPG.

And lastly don't act like the BR propelled the development of the game and brought us this far. The BR was a design choice, but they could've just as well dropped us in a portion of the map from Alpha 0 with the classes from the first PAX booths from a couple years ago and have us either fight each other or their boss for some quick testing. They literally already had classes and a map designed from previous showcases and tests. The BR is just what they decided to go with, but there were other options.

Edit: word

The techniques and animations used to build the combat in APOC will be used for the action portion of the mmorpg. The effects and animations used for the items in APOC will be used for the class and weapons abilities in the mmorpg. I don't know about the jumps and neither do you. TTK and balance can be tweaked during testing for the mmorpg. The player size is yet to be determined based on how popular the mmorpg ends up being, and we won't know until we start testing for the mmorpg.

You notice how I didn’t mention the animations or the effects. I just said the combat itself and the way the itemization works won’t be in the MMORPG. Intrepid has confirmed that the crazy jumps are for BR only. TTK and balance being tweaked during testing for the MMORPG means that it will be different between the BR and the MMORPG. And lastly, when I say that the player size will be different in the MMORPG I mean that a lot more than 200 players are expected to be in one concentrated zone which is a lot more than than the BR has done and therefore it will be different.

So at the end of the day all my points still stand and the BR is different from the MMORPG in more ways than just the Storm. Then how come that you always feel like contradicting me... relax and move on. It’s fact. The BR will different from the MMORPG in many more ways than just the storm.

Dygz

vmangman wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

The BR is the bare bones of the MMORPG. It's not really a standalone game; it's the equivalent of an Alpha 0 of the MMORPG.
What makes APOC a standalone game is that it's a different setting - thousands of years before the MMORPG. And APOC has separate funding from the MMORPG.

Really, the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm.
We wouldn't be any farther along in MMORPG development had the BR not existed.
We would still be waiting for Alpha 1. People would be whining that we've had no hands-on with gameplay in years. And, we would be way farther behind with network code - probably without any awareness of the issues with the networking that the BR flagged.

There are so many wrong things in what you're saying.

1. "It's not really a standalone game". Intrepid themselves have said that APOC is a standalone game.
2. "APOC has separate funding from the MMORPG". By testing out things in APOC they are supposedly building the MMORPG which would directly correlate the two even in terms of funding. Therefore, funding that goes towards APOC goes towards the MMORPG also and vice versa... therefore same funding.
3. "Really, the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm". The combat won't be in the MMORPG (action only vs hybrid). The same itemization won't be in the MMORPG. The flashiness of spells won't be in the MMORPG. The crazy acrobatic jumps won't be in the MMORPG. The same TTK and balance won't be in the MMORPG. The same player size (therefore server stress) won't be in the MMORPG.

And lastly don't act like the BR propelled the development of the game and brought us this far. The BR was a design choice, but they could've just as well dropped us in a portion of the map from Alpha 0 with the classes from the first PAX booths from a couple years ago and have us either fight each other or their boss for some quick testing. They literally already had classes and a map designed from previous showcases and tests. The BR is just what they decided to go with, but there were other options.

Edit: word

1: As you should know by now, it doesn't really matter what IS says. What matters is what IS has shown.
2: Testing doesn't really build anything, but everything in the BR except for the storm are assets from the MMORPG. APOC has separate servers from the MMORPG - which is what the majority of the APOC funding goes towards.
3: The action-combat of the BR will be in the MMORPG, with relatively minor tweaks to the numbers. Same is true for super-jump - but the super-jump will also be limited to a class rather than be available for all.
4: The BR doesn't really propel MMORPG development. The BR tests the bare bones of MMORPG development. Although, the BR did act as an early flag for network issues which the devs took 6+ months to fix.
5: They could have kept us on the A0 map - I mentioned that. People would have complained that we hadn't seen anything new in a couple of years.
6: The devs could have given us the classes from PAX with action abilities, but they wouldn't be getting the same kind of data that they're able to get from the BR Dailies and Weeklies. The set up of the BR has me testing weapons and gear and abilities that I would be avoiding with a class system.
7: We agree that the devs had other choices, but chose a BR - because it's the quickest and easiest way for them to have players test early and provide the data they want.
8: I never said, "The only difference between the BR and the MMORPG is the storm."

Case Closed

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

1: As you should know by now, it doesn't really matter what IS says. What matters is what IS has shown.
2: Testing doesn't really build anything, but everything in the BR except for the storm are assets from the MMORPG. APOC has separate servers from the MMORPG - which is what the majority of the APOC funding goes towards.
3: The action-combat of the BR will be in the MMORPG, with relatively minor tweaks to the numbers. Same is true for super-jump - but the super-jump will also be limited to a class rather than be available for all.
4: The BR doesn't really propel MMORPG development. The BR tests the bare bones of MMORPG development. Although, the BR did act as an early flag for network issues which the devs took 6+ months to fix.
5: They could have kept us on the A0 map - I mentioned that. People would have complained that we hadn't seen anything new in a couple of years.
6: The devs could have given us the classes from PAX with action abilities, but they wouldn't be getting the same kind of data that they're able to get from the BR Dailies and Weeklies. The set up of the BR has me testing weapons and gear and abilities that I would be avoiding with a class system.
7: We agree that the devs had other choices, but chose a BR - because it's the quickest and easiest way for them to have players test early and provide the data they want.
8: I never said, "The only difference between the BR and the MMORPG is the storm."

Case Closed

1. There’s a difference between not trusting Intrepid’s dates and not trusting their claim that APOC is a stand-alone game. By that logic we can’t trust that Intrepid is still working on an MMORPG anymore and that they have instead just settled on the BR game. If they say it’s a standalone game who are you to say that it isn’t?
2. What? They’re using the APOC tests to build an MMORPG. Almost everything they’re testing out in APOC is literally supposed to help build and develop the MMORPG. What are you even saying? APOC’s purpose is literally to help build the MMORPG. What?
3. The action-combat will not be in the MMORPG with “relatively minor tweaks”. A hybrid system is very different from an action system. Which is why Intrepid said that if the hybrid system doesn’t work they’ll go for a tab-target only system. So as I said before the BR (action only) and MMORPG (hybrid/tab-target only) combat system will not be the same.
5. You don’t know that people would have complained about that. Stop pulling stuff out of your bum.
6. Why are you making stuff up and assuming things as if they’re proven facts? How do you know they wouldn’t be getting the same data? They could’ve had team or single player death matches with the PAX classes on the Alpha 0 map and have gathered the exact same data that they got from the BR. Literally the exact same fighting and action except without the BR looting rules. It’s a testing ground after all... it doesn’t have to be a game within a named genre to work as a testing ground. And they could definitely have dailies and weeklies there too.
Who cares that “the BR has you testing weapons and gear abilities that you would be avoiding with a class system”? The MMORPG abilities will be much closer to the PAX system (class abilities) than the BR system (gear abilities). Your weapons will offer some abilities based on your class, but most of your abilities will come from a class kit not from the gear. Therefore, PAX system is closer to the MMORPG than the BR.
7. No, we don’t agree that the BR the was the fastest way to test. I literally just said that they had a map and multiple classes already designed. The BR literally took more time to design because of the gear abilities, looting system, storm etc. Again, they already had a map and classes so the BR by definition takes longer than something that already existed.
8. You literally said that the storm is the only thing that won’t be in the MMORPG... aka the only difference.

Dygz wrote: »

Really, the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm.

Come on man... stop lying.

The case is no where close to being closed because you’re still talking nonsense as shown above.

Dygz

What I literally said does not mean the same thing as your paraphrase.
But, that illustrates why I am not going to continue to entertain your ignorance and flawed logic in this thread.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

What I literally said does not mean the same thing as your paraphrase.
But, that illustrates why I am not going to continue to entertain your ignorance and flawed logic in this thread.

Haha. I’ll make it simple. Something that is a certain way in one instance and either not present or just present but in a different way in another instance is literally the definition of the word difference.

So when you say that “the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm” you are describing something (the storm) that is present in one instance (the BR) and not present in another instance (the MMORPG). As I explained above thats literally the definition of a difference. So your claim as I said, is that the storm is the only thing that’s different between the BR and the MMORPG.

So my paraphrase based on what you said is perfectly correct.

Not to mention that you didn’t even address all the other points where I proved you wrong. One quick ridiculous example of your claims would be when you said: “ As you should know by now, it doesn't really matter what IS says. What matters is what IS has shown“. Like I said, by that logic we can’t trust that Intrepid is still working on an MMORPG anymore. And that’s just one example of our previous conversation that you refuse to address. You can either admit that you’re wrong and like two adults we’ll move on with a clear understanding of the truth or you can try to explain your points which I previously very simply refuted.

It’s childish of you to say that you won’t talk to me anymore because I have a flawed logic when the definition of the word difference is literally what you described between the BR and the MMORPG.

Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

What I literally said does not mean the same thing as your paraphrase.
But, that illustrates why I am not going to continue to entertain your ignorance and flawed logic in this thread.

Haha. I’ll make it simple. Something that is a certain way in one instance and either not present or just present but in a different way in another instance is literally the definition of the word difference.

So are you saying that if I write a 2,500 line piece pf code for something, and then alter a single variable and use it for something else, that it is now a totally different thing?

Because that seems to be what you're saying.

VmanGman

noaani wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

What I literally said does not mean the same thing as your paraphrase.
But, that illustrates why I am not going to continue to entertain your ignorance and flawed logic in this thread.

Haha. I’ll make it simple. Something that is a certain way in one instance and either not present or just present but in a different way in another instance is literally the definition of the word difference.

So are you saying that if I write a 2,500 line piece pf code for something, and then alter a single variable and use it for something else, that it is now a totally different thing?

Because that seems to be what you're saying.

Ah hey buddy! You’re back too?

Did I say totally different? Or did I just say different?

Why don’t you read the paragraph right after that one too? Because there I explain how Dygz’s statement claims that the storm is the only difference (not total difference or whatever words you’re trying to put in my mouth) between the BR and the MMORPG.

Here, I’ll copy paste it for you to make it easier:
“So when you say that “the only thing in the BR that won't be in the MMORPG is the storm” you are describing something (the storm) that is present in one instance (the BR) and not present in another instance (the MMORPG). As I explained above thats literally the definition of a difference. So your claim as I said, is that the storm is the only thing that’s different between the BR and the MMORPG”.

Why are you trying to put words in my mouth and completely exaggerate my point. I’m not talking about 300 million lines of code that differ by one variable.
I’m talking about a very simple claim that the storm is “the only thing in the BR that won’t be in the MMORPG” aka the only thing that will be different between the two games.

It’s very simple. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Edit: I’m just trying to show that there are more differences between the BR and the MMORPG because Dygz claims that there is only one, the storm.

Nagash

I don't think it matters if you trust them or not. Intrepid is a company that has made mistakes, but as far as we know, they are making an MMO. whether or not it's good is anything question which we will see when it comes out

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